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The TLR Manager Thread

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Just now, Kyyle23 said:

Outside of that rule, his dugout questioned the double switch putting Hendriks at second and he blew them off. No matter what way you slice this he fucked up bad, and admitting not knowing the rule that could have helped him, that the opposing manager stated that the League made them all aware of, is incredibly indicting

To add onto this:

Not knowing the rule wasn't the worst part of last night. It was the double-switch - which he was told was a bad idea in his dugout - and the attempted steal which we, a collective message board hive mind, could have all told you was a stupid fucking idea right in the moment for a litany of reasons.

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9 hours ago, SoxFanForever said:

 

I didn't even know David Ross had a law degree.

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14 minutes ago, Quin said:

To add onto this:

Not knowing the rule wasn't the worst part of last night. It was the double-switch - which he was told was a bad idea in his dugout - and the attempted steal which we, a collective message board hive mind, could have all told you was a stupid fucking idea right in the moment for a litany of reasons.

Could have double switched for Abreu instead of Vaughn. That leaves Vaughn as a better runner on 2nd and still has Hendriks 8 spots away in the batting order.

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24 minutes ago, Two-Gun Pete said:

Well, if there's a positive from TLR's latest pants-crapping incident, its this:

 

Literally NO ONE is bitching about the $18MM man's now-negative fWAR, or that he lost the game. Like Ozzie did years ago, TLR's antics are taking the heat off his players.

Yes he sucked but I'm of the opinion that maybe he might have been a little better if he wasn't running the bases and maybe was discussing how to attack his next group of hitters with Grandal and Katz.   

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2 hours ago, poppysox said:

Ron 883 misstates my post.  The hot take you refer to was about MLB making changes to the game such as the runner at 2nd crap.  I don't like tampering with a game that has withstood depression and World Wars.  No attempt was made to defend TL for his not knowing the rule.

Small d depression is currently setting in for White Sox fans, knowing the managerial situation won’t improve soon...

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7 minutes ago, Blackout Friday said:

TLR to the 10 day IL with a full tear of his brain stem. He’ll be reevaluated tomorrow. 

See scene with Colonel Sanders and Adam Sandler in The Water Boy....medulla oblongata. 

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2 hours ago, poppysox said:

Ron 883 misstates my post.  The hot take you refer to was about MLB making changes to the game such as the runner at 2nd crap.  I don't like tampering with a game that has withstood depression and World Wars.  No attempt was made to defend TL for his not knowing the rule.

I dont like the 7 inning DH or the extra innings rule, but this narrative that baseball hasn't changed in 120 years is complete nonsense.

Mound height has changed. DH was added. Bullpen has changed. Shift has been implemented. People of color can play now. Strike zone was changed. Spit ball was removed. Save rule was added and changed. Free agency was added. Foul balls were made strikes. Teams were added. Ballpark dimension requirements changed 

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1 hour ago, Texsox said:

It's shocking that a AL manager wouldn't know about a rule that involves a situation when your pitcher makes the last out in a tie game. 

I'm not a current TLR fan,  but I'm not going to condemn him for this one. It's just one more reason baseball needs to make the DH universal or end these games.  Having one set of rules for AL ballparks and another for NL is ridiculous. 

I find these two opinions to contrast.

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8 minutes ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

I dont like the 7 inning DH or the extra innings rule, but this narrative that baseball hasn't changed in 120 years is complete nonsense.

Mound height has changed. DH was added. Bullpen has changed. Shift has been implemented. People of color can play now. Strike zone was changed. Spit ball was removed. Save rule was added and changed. Free agency was added. Foul balls were made strikes. Teams were added. Ballpark dimension requirements changed 

I obviously mean the basic game of 27 outs and 9 innings and three strikes your out.  Yes, the changes you mentioned did occur and they had their share of detractors.  The DH is only now starting to gain acceptance.  The differences in ballparks have always been accepted by fans.  Another way of putting it is there are changes and then there are changes.  I don't like "these" changes.

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15 minutes ago, Texsox said:

It's shocking that a AL manager wouldn't know about a rule that involves a situation when your pitcher makes the last out in a tie game. 

I'm not a current TLR fan,  but I'm not going to condemn him for this one. It's just one more reason baseball needs to make the DH universal or end these games.  Having one set of rules for AL ballparks and another for NL is ridiculous. 

Maybe you are condensing the part about the pitcher making the last out in the 9th inning because of the double switch.But Vaughn made the last out in the 9th inning when he hit into the DP. Vaughn would have been the runner on 2nd base and due up in the 10th was Grandal, Garcia, Hamilton and the pitcher's spot.

He didn't want Vaughn on 2nd so TLR made a double switch inserting Lamb into the pitchers spot making him the 4th batter due up and Hendricks into Vaughn's spot thus making Hendricks the runner on 2nd. Guys left on the bench were Mendick, Collins, Eaton ( who was ailing with hamstring issues so not a serious option to pinch run had LaRussa chosen to pinch run for Vaughn). As far as I know though, their options in CF were limited to Garcia and Hamilton. With Eaton ailing maybe the Sox should have IL'd him and brought up a fresh body. The Sox did not bring up Luis Gonzalez nor the recently signed Brian Goodwin  thus handicapping TLR options . TLR could've chosen to either let Vaughn run or pinch run for him with his only real choice which was Mendick . That would leave Collins , Lamb and Eaton on the bench with the pitcher spot due up 4th. He also could've made the double switch with the rules allowing for Abreu to run in place of the pitcher. Again not a great option for the lead runner.

Let's say instead of the double switch he used Mendick to pinch run . As the inning starts with Mendick on 2nd , Grandal walks. 1 and 2nd no outs. Leury AB ,choices are sac bunt or let him hit. Leury hasn't shown he is a good bunter having attempted 2 earlier in the season and getting neither one down. Leury is fast but anybody can hit into a ground ball DP if hit to the right spot or perhaps TLR should've bunted to get the lead run to 3rd base with 1 out and Grandal to 2nd. Maybe LaRussa chose not to bunt there because he put an inexperienced runner on 2nd base. If Mendick is on 2nd is the bunt more of an option ? Even with a successful bunt you still have Hamilton coming up with men on 2nd and 3rd with 1 out. Then what ? Reds probably chose to pitch to him but what if you pinch hit Collins/Lamb for him do the Reds pitch to Collins/Lamb or walk him ? Remember if it's Mendick now on 3rd the pitchers spot is up next so do you burn the rest of you bench (except for Eaton).

Anyway so Leury doesn't sac bunt and hits into a force out . Mendick now on 3rd, Leury on 1st . Options: let Hamilton swing away or try a suicide or safety squeeze or pinch hit for Hamilton with a slower batter more likely to hit into a DP but more likely to hit a sac fly or get a hit or give Leury a shot at stealing 2nd with the strong armed Tucker Barnhart behind the plate . Now if Mendick is on 3rd perhaps Barnhart doesnt throw through to 2nd base but with Hendriks on 3rd a throw is more likely since the threat of Hendriks stealing home are not high. If the attempted steal is successful now 1st base is open . Reds more than likely pitch to Hamilton hoping for the K , but do they pitch to Collin/Lamb if they pinch hit ? Don't try the steal at all and Hamilton can still try the bunt . As far as i remember Hamilton isn't a bad bunter.If Hamilton is pinch hit for it opens up a whole new set options for the Reds manager to do but  at least we have one of Collins or Lamb left to hit in the pitchers spot if there is no double play . If you don't even attempt the steal , you risk the DP if Hamilton swings away but highly unlikely with his speed. You pinch hit for him and the DP risk is much higher with either Collins or Lamb. If you suicide or safety squeeze with Hamilton tthat's a tough choice too

Anyway the purpose of this I suppose is to see what a large array of things that could happen and why some love NL baseball because there is so much strategy involved . A manager has to be at the top of his game especially in extra innings with the runner on 2nd rules. The choice of the double switch with Hendriks running set up the rest of his calls for that inning all of which turned out poorly .

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I would venture to guess that 99.99999% of the posters who don't think TLR should necessarily have to know the rules since the announcers didn't and Frank and Ozzie didn't, would have fully held Ricky Renteria accountable for not knowing the rules if he was in the dugout.

LaRussa is a hack. IMO, he always was, but give him his Oakland and St. Louis days. At the very least, it is rather obvious this isn't a guy who is 3 or 4 steps ahead of everyone else. Yesterday and a few other examples have shown he is at least one step behind. 

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   It's surprising how fast the Chicago media gets on LaRusso for some mistakes. When you make a decision you are either right or wrong. Right now the weakness on this team is not the fault of the Mgr. but the poor handling of depth by the front office. Maybe Tony could have pushed a little harder in Spring training and the with conditioning the injuries might be slightly diminished. Putting our original LF in was an error because we caved to him wanting to play in the field but when he is in he is just an accident waiting to happen. Hope we are training Mercedes to play out there. We need his bat every day especially now with the loss of Robert. Back to the Media, maybe in going on the attack they are hoping we will not remember the pressure they were putting on the Bears to do everything possible to grab Watson ( can't miss) including giving away the team. That sure looks like some really bad advice right now. Being in the Media is great you never ever have to answer for your stupidity.

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35 minutes ago, poppysox said:

I obviously mean the basic game of 27 outs and 9 innings and three strikes your out.  Yes, the changes you mentioned did occur and they had their share of detractors.  The DH is only now starting to gain acceptance.  The differences in ballparks have always been accepted by fans.  Another way of putting it is there are changes and then there are changes.  I don't like "these" changes.

I'm not sure how  a runner on second changes those. I don't like 7 inning DH because the game was designed to guarantee three times through a batting order (27 outs), but I'm not sure what essential design is changed by starting a runner on second.

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32 minutes ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

Maybe you are condensing the part about the pitcher making the last out in the 9th inning because of the double switch.But Vaughn made the last out in the 9th inning when he hit into the DP. Vaughn would have been the runner on 2nd base and due up in the 10th was Grandal, Garcia, Hamilton and the pitcher's spot.

He didn't want Vaughn on 2nd so TLR made a double switch inserting Lamb into the pitchers spot making him the 4th batter due up and Hendricks into Vaughn's spot thus making Hendricks the runner on 2nd. Guys left on the bench were Mendick, Collins, Eaton ( who was ailing with hamstring issues so not a serious option to pinch run had LaRussa chosen to pinch run for Vaughn). As far as I know though, their options in CF were limited to Garcia and Hamilton. With Eaton ailing maybe the Sox should have IL'd him and brought up a fresh body. The Sox did not bring up Luis Gonzalez nor the recently signed Brian Goodwin  thus handicapping TLR options . TLR could've chosen to either let Vaughn run or pinch run for him with his only real choice which was Mendick . That would leave Collins , Lamb and Eaton on the bench with the pitcher spot due up 4th. He also could've made the double switch with the rules allowing for Abreu to run in place of the pitcher. Again not a great option for the lead runner.

Let's say instead of the double switch he used Mendick to pinch run . As the inning starts with Mendick on 2nd , Grandal walks. 1 and 2nd no outs. Leury AB ,choices are sac bunt or let him hit. Leury hasn't shown he is a good bunter having attempted 2 earlier in the season and getting neither one down. Leury is fast but anybody can hit into a ground ball DP if hit to the right spot or perhaps TLR should've bunted to get the lead run to 3rd base with 1 out and Grandal to 2nd. Maybe LaRussa chose not to bunt there because he put an inexperienced runner on 2nd base. If Mendick is on 2nd is the bunt more of an option ? Even with a successful bunt you still have Hamilton coming up with men on 2nd and 3rd with 1 out. Then what ? Reds probably chose to pitch to him but what if you pinch hit Collins/Lamb for him do the Reds pitch to Collins/Lamb or walk him ? Remember if it's Mendick now on 3rd the pitchers spot is up next so do you burn the rest of you bench (except for Eaton).

Anyway so Leury doesn't sac bunt and hits into a force out . Mendick now on 3rd, Leury on 1st . Options: let Hamilton swing away or try a suicide or safety squeeze or pinch hit for Hamilton with a slower batter more likely to hit into a DP but more likely to hit a sac fly or get a hit or give Leury a shot at stealing 2nd with the strong armed Tucker Barnhart behind the plate . Now if Mendick is on 3rd perhaps Barnhart doesnt throw through to 2nd base but with Hendriks on 3rd a throw is more likely since the threat of Hendriks stealing home are not high. If the attempted steal is successful now 1st base is open . Reds more than likely pitch to Hamilton hoping for the K , but do they pitch to Collin/Lamb if they pinch hit ? Don't try the steal at all and Hamilton can still try the bunt . As far as i remember Hamilton isn't a bad bunter.If Hamilton is pinch hit for it opens up a whole new set options for the Reds manager to do but  at least we have one of Collins or Lamb left to hit in the pitchers spot if there is no double play . If you don't even attempt the steal , you risk the DP if Hamilton swings away but highly unlikely with his speed. You pinch hit for him and the DP risk is much higher with either Collins or Lamb. If you suicide or safety squeeze with Hamilton tthat's a tough choice too

Anyway the purpose of this I suppose is to see what a large array of things that could happen and why some love NL baseball because there is so much strategy involved . A manager has to be at the top of his game especially in extra innings with the runner on 2nd rules. The choice of the double switch with Hendriks running set up the rest of his calls for that inning all of which turned out poorly .

Historically, this is not true.  Leury does have a history of being a solid bunter, including leading the AL in sac bunts in 2019.

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Texsox said:

It's shocking that a AL manager wouldn't know about a rule that involves a situation when your pitcher makes the last out in a tie game. 

I'm not a current TLR fan,  but I'm not going to condemn him for this one. It's just one more reason baseball needs to make the DH universal or end these games.  Having one set of rules for AL ballparks and another for NL is ridiculous. 

I don't get this narrative either. LaRussa has double switched and taken his DH out of the lineup and replaced it with his pitcher (the Abreu to first double switch) in an AL ballpark. The Sox held onto the lead, but if LaRussa plans on removing the DH from games for defensive reasons, he may want to know the rules pertaining pitchers hitting.

Also, you play in NL ball parks by NL rules every single year now. This isn't 1990. You need to know the rules in both leagues. It's not like they're that different.

Edited by Look at Ray Ray Run
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2 minutes ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

I'm not sure how  a runner on second changes those. I don't like 7 inning DH because the game was designed to guarantee three times through a batting order (27 outs), but I'm not sure what essential design is changed by starting a runner on second.

The 10th inning should be played the same way as the 9th.  The game was designed so that you need someone to get on base via hit, walk, error, or getting drilled in order to score a run.  The strike zone shouldn't change and spitball shouldn't be allowed using your earlier example.

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17 minutes ago, upsoxfan said:

   It's surprising how fast the Chicago media gets on LaRusso for some mistakes. When you make a decision you are either right or wrong. Right now the weakness on this team is not the fault of the Mgr. but the poor handling of depth by the front office. Maybe Tony could have pushed a little harder in Spring training and the with conditioning the injuries might be slightly diminished. Putting our original LF in was an error because we caved to him wanting to play in the field but when he is in he is just an accident waiting to happen. Hope we are training Mercedes to play out there. We need his bat every day especially now with the loss of Robert. Back to the Media, maybe in going on the attack they are hoping we will not remember the pressure they were putting on the Bears to do everything possible to grab Watson ( can't miss) including giving away the team. That sure looks like some really bad advice right now. Being in the Media is great you never ever have to answer for your stupidity.

Before saying the Chicago media is too tough, let’s note that this week there were two articles about grumbling in the locker room, and they were hosted by ESPN and The Athletic. The local press stayed out of that. The guy reading him the rule book yesterday, also the Athletic.

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1 hour ago, WhiteSoxFan1993 said:

Could have double switched for Abreu instead of Vaughn. That leaves Vaughn as a better runner on 2nd and still has Hendriks 8 spots away in the batting order.

Or since you really don't want Vaughn running either you just don't make the double switch and let Mendick run for Vaughn and deal with the pitchers spot up 4th in the next inning when it comes up when you still have Collins, Lamb and Eaton ( to a lesser extent because he was ailing) on the bench. Sox FO didn't do LaRussa any favors by not anticipating trouble with CF during a 2 game NL series by not IL'ing Eaton and bringing up either Goodwin or Luis Gonzalez.

I'm not entirely sure what you said is correct. Abreu and Hendrick were already in the game. You can't just switch their spots in the batting order . The purpose of a double switch is bringing a new player into the game.

This is from Baseball Reference:

A double switch is a substitution during which two or more players are substituted simultaneously and take places in the batting order different from those of the player they replaced.

A double switch is typically used in situations where the designated hitter is not used and the pitcher is one of the players being substituted. The purpose of the move is to change the pitcher's slot in the batting order, so that the new pitcher does not immediately come up to bat in the next half inning. For example, if the left fielder, batting seventh, made the last out in the preceding half inning, a manager who wishes to change his pitcher in the middle of the following inning may elect to also change his left fielder, moving the new LF to the 9th slot of the order, and the new pitcher to 7th. This allows his team to have a better hitter coming up second in his team's next turn at bat, while not having to decide whether to pinch hit for his pitcher for a while.

So if Vaughn stays into run where is the double switch since you aren't bringing a new player in the the game ? I think what you are suggesting is just switching Hendricks with Abreu in the batting order which is not allowed. Correct me if I am wrong on what you proposed to do because I don't see any new player coming into the game with your suggestion.

 

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8 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

Historically, this is not true.  Leury does have a history of being a solid bunter, including leading the AL in sac bunts in 2019.

That's fine I was just pointing out TLR's options and one of them was to have Leury bunting . Typically I agree  in that situation a bunt could've been the best move and pointing out how Leury hadn't been successful at it this season could've played a part in TLR's mind. And if unsuccessful we have people here screaming why is he bunting with Leury with the unsuccessful Leury bunts still fresh in their minds.

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1 minute ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

That's fine I was just pointing out TLR's options and one of them was to have Leury bunting . Typically I agree  in that situation a bunt could've been the best move and pointing out how Leury hadn't been successful at it this season could've played a part in TLR's mind. And if unsuccessful we have people here screaming why is he bunting with Leury with the unsuccessful Leury bunts still fresh in their minds.

Except you take away that option when you put a pitcher on the basepaths.  And that is without even considering the fact that they didn't have to have Hendriks out there in the first place.

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1 hour ago, Balta1701 said:

 

I find these two opinions to contrast.

How do? I expected better and I'm not getting it. I also believed he was a bad hire for off field issues.

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1 hour ago, Kyyle23 said:

Yes he sucked but I'm of the opinion that maybe he might have been a little better if he wasn't running the bases and maybe was discussing how to attack his next group of hitters with Grandal and Katz.   

Can't BOTH be true at the same time?

Can't is be that it was moronic to overpay for a closer, AND it was moronic to bring in TLR as manager?

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3 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

Except you take away that option when you put a pitcher on the basepaths.  And that is without even considering the fact that they didn't have to have Hendriks out there in the first place.

Right which I also pointed out when in that long winded post by saying TLR also had the option of just letting Mendick pinch run for Vaughn to start the inning instead of the double switch. I really did try to cover every option.

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11 minutes ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

Or since you really don't want Vaughn running either you just don't make the double switch and let Mendick run for Vaughn and deal with the pitchers spot up 4th in the next inning when it comes up when you still have Collins, Lamb and Eaton ( to a lesser extent because he was ailing) on the bench. Sox FO didn't do LaRussa any favors by not anticipating trouble with CF during a 2 game NL series by not IL'ing Eaton and bringing up either Goodwin or Luis Gonzalez.

I'm not entirely sure what you said is correct. Abreu and Hendrick were already in the game. You can't just switch their spots in the batting order . The purpose of a double switch is bringing a new player into the game.

This is from Baseball Reference:

A double switch is a substitution during which two or more players are substituted simultaneously and take places in the batting order different from those of the player they replaced.

A double switch is typically used in situations where the designated hitter is not used and the pitcher is one of the players being substituted. The purpose of the move is to change the pitcher's slot in the batting order, so that the new pitcher does not immediately come up to bat in the next half inning. For example, if the left fielder, batting seventh, made the last out in the preceding half inning, a manager who wishes to change his pitcher in the middle of the following inning may elect to also change his left fielder, moving the new LF to the 9th slot of the order, and the new pitcher to 7th. This allows his team to have a better hitter coming up second in his team's next turn at bat, while not having to decide whether to pinch hit for his pitcher for a while.

So if Vaughn stays into run where is the double switch since you aren't bringing a new player in the the game ? I think what you are suggesting is just switching Hendricks with Abreu in the batting order which is not allowed. Correct me if I am wrong on what you proposed to do because I don't see any new player coming into the game with your suggestion.

 

Thanks for the long patronizing explanation of the double switch. I was suggesting double switch Lamb for Kopech and Hendriks for Abreu, and let Vaughn run or pinch run for him with Mendick. Vaughn is still a better option to run than Hendriks or Abreu.

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