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Grandal Vs. McCann

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Posted (edited)
13 minutes ago, caulfield12 said:

Way premature, still.

What was his FG defensive rating last year?  Top 3-5 in the majors...plus he’s dealing with a harness on his left shoulder under his jersey.

He can't throw to first base and has chronic shoulder problems. He was bad In 2019 and has been bad in 2021. You cherry picking 2020 is very tatis fanboy of you.

Edited by Look at Ray Ray Run

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Posted (edited)

It's hard to take people seriously when they call grandal avg or below avg last year when he was arguably the best catcher in baseball.

The knee is clearly effecting him this year. He had to change how he sits behind home plate for goodness sakes. This is why players shouldn't play hurt. Fans rip them for not playing hurt then rip them for not being great when they play hurt.

Edited by Look at Ray Ray Run
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8 minutes ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

It's hard to take people seriously when they call grandal avg or below avg last year when he was arguably the best catcher in baseball.

THIS.  100% THIS.  

I don't think 90% of this board realizes how few good all-around catchers there are.  It amazes me every single day.  Lost in their own world, I guess.  Yasmani is a frustrating player to watch, but he's an elite overall catcher.  There are few guys who are good defensive catchers and above average offensive producers in the entire history of the game.  if you don't like Grandal's game, there isn't a catcher on the planet outside of maybe Realmuto you're going to be impressed with.  And Realmuto and Grandal literally produced shockingly similar numbers in 2020.  

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Posted (edited)
9 minutes ago, ChiSox59 said:

THIS.  100% THIS.  

I don't think 90% of this board realizes how few good all-around catchers there are.  It amazes me every single day.  Lost in their own world, I guess.  Yasmani is a frustrating player to watch, but he's an elite overall catcher.  There are few guys who are good defensive catchers and above average offensive producers in the entire history of the game.  if you don't like Grandal's game, there isn't a catcher on the planet outside of maybe Realmuto you're going to be impressed with.  And Realmuto and Grandal literally produced shockingly similar numbers in 2020.  

Yes, and I can't emphasize enough the guy is playing HURT this year. Probably moreso than any of us even realize. He's a catcher with a knee problem. That's not good. It's no surprise he's rolling over everything. He's left handed and his front leg is injured. He's also been the victim of some bad luck which happens. 

Grandal didn't tell giolito to throw face high change ups over and over vs Boston. The soxtalk narrative I am most exhausted of is that a catcher makes a pitcher throw a certain pitch. Pitchers are responsible for what they throw. No one else is.

Mccann xwOBA is 285!

Grandals xwOBA is 365!

One has had incredibly bad batted ball luck, the other has been bad and his batted ball luck has been as expected.

Edited by Look at Ray Ray Run
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Posted (edited)

If he is still feeling hurt, I wouldn't mind them IL'ing him and giving him 10 days off. No point in playing hurt especially when you play such a physically demanding position.

Edited by manbearpuig

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I’d gladly take a catcher who provides gold glove defense and sucks offensively. He was touted as a great defensive catcher due to the metrics and between last year/this year he is not (cool he’s injured this year). Nothing last year screamed to me great defensive catcher and I watched almost every game in the shorten season. 

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21 hours ago, ChiSox59 said:

lol mccann has such a cult following here its hilarious.

Yasmani has been really bad in 21 and definitely 100% deserves some criticism for sure.  I've been big supporter of his against the meatball takes, but he's been just flat bad in 21.  He was fine last year.  I do honestly think part of the problem is Sox fans expected a different hitter than Grandal really is.  What he did last year is exactly what he's done his whole career, which has made him widely considered one of the best 2-3 catchers in the game, pretty much unanimously.  

McCann is a really solid  defensive catcher that has has produced about 2-3 months of good offensive in his 7+ year career.  Career wRC+ of 85.  Rag on Yasmani all you want (and like I said, he deserves some flack so far in 21), but he has a career wRC+ of 117.  Offensively, they aren't really comparable at all.  Defensively, I would agree that Yaz has been pretty disappointing so far in a Sox uni - I certainly expected more.  

At the end of the day, McCann is in New York and is looking like the offensive producer he's been for 95% of his career.  I like the guy - but he isn't some savior.  

Why is there all this rationalizing  and defending for Grandal? Going into doubleheader today: BA - .122, OBP - .283, SLG - .286, OPS - .569 . There is nothing to justify on Grandal. Almost every starting catcher in baseball is batting better. His stats are the worst on the Sox for the starters. 

At the time it seemed like a good free agent signing, but today it's horrible signing. The Sox need to move on and trade him regardless of how little they get for him. We can live with Zach Collins. Collins is not a whole lot better...but definitely better and definitely a better fielding catcher. 

It's sad Yermin Mercedes isn't a more capable catcher. 

 

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No disrespect to Grandal; he's still a very good C and was a great one in 2019.  But in 2019, C was not a position of weakness; McCann was very good and deserving of a longer deal.  A 2 or 3 yr deal then for McCann at ~$10 or ~$18 ($4,6,8m - was making $2.9m in 2019) and then spent the tens of $m's of savings elsewhere would have been much more prudent.  Grandal's regression from 2019 could have easily be expected but was not anticipated by the FO, especially switching leagues and his age.  This isn't hindsight, the Grandal signing was a big time head scratcher for me then.  He wasn't $14m or $12m or even $10m better than McCann from a 2019 offseason perspective.

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The Grandal experience is exactly what some of us expected

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I still don't see where people come up with this regression for Grandal in 2020. He was one of the best catchers in baseball last year. Has he been horrible in his 15 games this year? Absolutely. But 15 games is 15 games. Grandal has a .108 babip rn compared to Mccanns .297. Grandals wrc+ is 74 compared to mccanns 77. Both have been bad to horrible so far. 

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, ejm3 said:

Why is there all this rationalizing  and defending for Grandal? Going into doubleheader today: BA - .122, OBP - .283, SLG - .286, OPS - .569 . There is nothing to justify on Grandal. Almost every starting catcher in baseball is batting better. His stats are the worst on the Sox for the starters. 

At the time it seemed like a good free agent signing, but today it's horrible signing. The Sox need to move on and trade him regardless of how little they get for him. We can live with Zach Collins. Collins is not a whole lot better...but definitely better and definitely a better fielding catcher. 

It's sad Yermin Mercedes isn't a more capable catcher. 

 

Probably because almost every underlying stat shows his stats are going to get better. Do you really think he will bat .108 on all balls he hits in play this year? his walks are up and strike outs are down. Usually I just like to observe on this board but its so obvious some folks here just watch sox games and live in their bubble. Trade him for who exactly? To play collins everyday? Lower iso, more K's and less walks. We really think those 3 infield singles the other day from him is sustainable?  I swear some live in fantasy land here. Lets see where he's at in july. If he's hurt I wouldn't mind an IL stint at all. 

Edited by soxguy456
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14 minutes ago, soxguy456 said:

I still don't see where people come up with this regression for Grandal in 2020. He was one of the best catchers in baseball last year. Has he been horrible in his 15 games this year? Absolutely. But 15 games is 15 games. Grandal has a .108 babip rn compared to Mccanns .297. Grandals wrc+ is 74 compared to mccanns 77. Both have been bad to horrible so far. 

The bolded below says it all.  The amount of cluelessness you see here with regard to Grandal is simply amazing.  Grandal deserves to heat for 2021 - injured or not - he's been terrible at the plate and behind it. But the guy was exactly who he has always been last year, and bafoons were mad mouthing him daily.  

1 minute ago, soxguy456 said:

Probably because almost every underlying stat shows his stats are going to get better. Do you really think he will bat .108 on all balls he hits in play this year? his walks are up and strike outs are down. Usually I just like to observe on this board but its so obvious some folks here just watch sox games and live in their bubble. Trade him for who exactly? To play collins everyday? Lower iso, more K's and less walks. I swear some live in fantasy land here. Lets see where he's at in july. If he's hurt I wouldn't mind an IL stint at all. 

 

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45 minutes ago, soxguy456 said:

I still don't see where people come up with this regression for Grandal in 2020. He was one of the best catchers in baseball last year. Has he been horrible in his 15 games this year? Absolutely. But 15 games is 15 games. Grandal has a .108 babip rn compared to Mccanns .297. Grandals wrc+ is 74 compared to mccanns 77. Both have been bad to horrible so far. 

So my regression opinion is based on a 2019 projections window at the time of his signing; predicting regression vs $'s offered.  How likely was he to match his 2019 Brewer stats or his previous LA season....unlikely.  Or that he would catch 153 games or the 140 in 2018...again, unlikely. Or that he would begin to physically regress along with possible injuries as a 31-34 C ...likely.   Predicting regression can be a crap shoot but there were enough factors and 2019 was so lofty for him that it was a probability and, in fact, he did (for whatever 2020 stats are worth).  But that's moot, I 'm talking about 2019 FO vision before the signing.   All the while with a very solid McCann who could have been signed then for tens of $M's less.  Oh what they could have done with that cash and still be very strong at the C position!

If he had earned his new contract based on Sox performance for those years then, yeah, reward him.  But the Sox rewarded him for what he did for other teams.  For example, Realmuto earned a big deal this winter with the Phillies because he got there with them.  Yeah, they signed him in 2018 (for just 2 years) based on a Mia career.  But he was only 27 and most likely to progress or at least maintain.  He progressed as a Philly and got rewarded.

What's done is done,  He's a Sox and can't be replaced.  Hopefully, he plays well from here on out.  Since he's been playing more this past week or so, hopefully that knee is healing and he can begin to turn it up,    

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1 hour ago, ChiSox59 said:

The bolded below says it all.  The amount of cluelessness you see here with regard to Grandal is simply amazing.  Grandal deserves to heat for 2021 - injured or not - he's been terrible at the plate and behind it. But the guy was exactly who he has always been last year, and bafoons were mad mouthing him daily.  

 

Buffoons?

For questioning Grandal? 
 

https://www.fangraphs.com/leaders.aspx?pos=c&stats=bat&lg=all&qual=50&type=8&season=2021&month=0&season1=2021&ind=0&team=0&rost=0&age=0&filter=&players=0&startdate=2021-01-01&enddate=2021-12-31&sort=18,d

22nd out of 26th in Wrc+.

22nd in FG defense.  Of course, Narvaez is #1.

More than half the catchers at 100+ though.   Hardly a barren wasteland like previous years.

22nd in fWAR.  And that’s with noted masher from the recent past Mitch Garver ensconced behind him.

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Grandal with a .388 OBP after tonight. His average and slugging are still bad of course, but he has been pretty damn unlucky. He has a pultry .121 BABIP when his career average is .277. His hard hit % is 51.2%, which is the highest of his career. Soft hit % is a minute 4.7%. the ground balls are definitely hurting him, though. 

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43 minutes ago, ron883 said:

Grandal with a .388 OBP after tonight. His average and slugging are still bad of course, but he has been pretty damn unlucky. He has a pultry .121 BABIP when his career average is .277. His hard hit % is 51.2%, which is the highest of his career. Soft hit % is a minute 4.7%. the ground balls are definitely hurting him, though. 

If he starts swinging the bat more, and better his BABIP will improve. The Sox are in second in MLB in BABIP (.318, league average in the mid .280s) , so there may be some regression on the way for others.

https://www.mlb.com/stats/team/babip?expanded=true

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On Fri Apr 30 2021 at 1:12 AM, soxguy456 said:

Probably because almost every underlying stat shows his stats are going to get better. Do you really think he will bat .108 on all balls he hits in play this year? his walks are up and strike outs are down. Usually I just like to observe on this board but its so obvious some folks here just watch sox games and live in their bubble. Trade him for who exactly? To play collins everyday? Lower iso, more K's and less walks. We really think those 3 infield singles the other day from him is sustainable?  I swear some live in fantasy land here. Lets see where he's at in july. If he's hurt I wouldn't mind an IL stint at all. 

If they are mostly grounders pulled weakly into the shift, it's possible.

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4 hours ago, ron883 said:

Grandal with a .388 OBP after tonight. His average and slugging are still bad of course, but he has been pretty damn unlucky. He has a pultry .121 BABIP when his career average is .277. His hard hit % is 51.2%, which is the highest of his career. Soft hit % is a minute 4.7%. the ground balls are definitely hurting him, though. 

Every aspect of this is wild.

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Posted (edited)

I saw this elsewhere, but Grandal is 0-3 in last four starts with 13 BBs.  That equates to a slash line of .000/.765/.000/.765 and a wRC+ of 250.  In the three at-bats he didn’t walk, he has struck out once and flied out twice.  The fly-out last night was a barrel with a .630 xBA that ended in a fly-out.  Incredibly sample size, but it’s very good to see him lifting the ball more as the grounders (+12% vs. career rate) have been his primary problem this year.  

Also, I know Yas is ripped here constantly because of his ridiculously low batting average and the fact that several vocal gamethread posters despise him, but here is how Statcast ranks him this year:

  • BB rate = 100th percentile
  • K rate = 71st percentile
  • Whiff % = 63rd percentile
  • Chase rate = 98th percentile
  • Hard Hit rate = 85th percentile
  • Avg Exit Velocity = 93rd percentile
  • Barrel % = 70th percentile
  • xISO = 70th percentile
  • xwOBA = 93rd percentile

The only metric that sucks right now is his xBA of .210, which is driven by his unusually high ground-ball rate.  Even there he’s likely had some bad batted ball luck.  Other than that, he’s been well above average to elite in both plate discipline and hard contact.  With some minor adjustments the dude will likely pop and improve on his current 109 wRC+.

I truly believe these narratives of slowing bat speed or general declining offensive performance are ridiculously premature and are likely the function of an inherent bias this board has against Grandal.  Just like with Nicky, I fully expect Yas to shut the haters up in the coming months, at least when it comes to the bat.  The defense admittedly needs to get better, but that’s a completely different matter.

Edited by Chicago White Sox
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On 4/29/2021 at 1:39 PM, caulfield12 said:

Buffoons?

For questioning Grandal? 
 

https://www.fangraphs.com/leaders.aspx?pos=c&stats=bat&lg=all&qual=50&type=8&season=2021&month=0&season1=2021&ind=0&team=0&rost=0&age=0&filter=&players=0&startdate=2021-01-01&enddate=2021-12-31&sort=18,d

22nd out of 26th in Wrc+.

22nd in FG defense.  Of course, Narvaez is #1.

More than half the catchers at 100+ though.   Hardly a barren wasteland like previous years.

22nd in fWAR.  And that’s with noted masher from the recent past Mitch Garver ensconced behind him.

I literally said I was referring to last year and that he deserves criticism for this year. Tho that .390 OBP at this point is pretty nice. 

Yes, people who constantly bad mouthed Grandal last year are clueless bafoons. He was hands down one of the best 2-3 catchers in the game. 

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2 minutes ago, ChiSox59 said:

I literally said I was referring to last year and that he deserves criticism for this year. Tho that .390 OBP at this point is pretty nice. 

Yes, people who constantly bad mouthed Grandal last year are clueless bafoons. He was hands down one of the best 2-3 catchers in the game. 

Buffoons.  Well, no matter how it is spun, a batting average well under .200 isn’t going to be perceived as “great value” by any stretch of the imagination.

That said, he should quietly be able to lift his numbers with the team playing well and the rest of the lineup more of less covering up for Grandal and the other key personnel losses.

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Posted (edited)
On 4/28/2021 at 9:05 PM, wegner said:

Do you think Caulfield that the Navarro contract has had a long reaching effect at all on Reinsdorf being willing to shell out for free agent starting pitchers?

I recall Reinsdorf being against it before Navarro.  He made an exception for Jaime.  Sometime the owners are smarter than the people who run the team and that applies in other cities and other sports as well.

Edited by Stinky Stanky
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12 hours ago, ron883 said:

Grandal with a .388 OBP after tonight. His average and slugging are still bad of course, but he has been pretty damn unlucky. He has a pultry .121 BABIP when his career average is .277. His hard hit % is 51.2%, which is the highest of his career. Soft hit % is a minute 4.7%. the ground balls are definitely hurting him, though. 

unlucky?  nah, he refuses to adjust against the shift.

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41 minutes ago, joesaiditstrue said:

unlucky?  nah, he refuses to adjust against the shift.

There are a lot of hitters who never adjust against the shift and none of them run .121 BABIPs, it's pretty silly to say he's not been unlucky.

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On 4/28/2021 at 1:44 PM, ChiSox59 said:

lol mccann has such a cult following here its hilarious.

Yasmani has been really bad in 21 and definitely 100% deserves some criticism for sure.  I've been big supporter of his against the meatball takes, but he's been just flat bad in 21.  He was fine last year.  I do honestly think part of the problem is Sox fans expected a different hitter than Grandal really is.  What he did last year is exactly what he's done his whole career, which has made him widely considered one of the best 2-3 catchers in the game, pretty much unanimously.  

McCann is a really solid  defensive catcher that has has produced about 2-3 months of good offensive in his 7+ year career.  Career wRC+ of 85.  Rag on Yasmani all you want (and like I said, he deserves some flack so far in 21), but he has a career wRC+ of 117.  Offensively, they aren't really comparable at all.  Defensively, I would agree that Yaz has been pretty disappointing so far in a Sox uni - I certainly expected more.  

At the end of the day, McCann is in New York and is looking like the offensive producer he's been for 95% of his career.  I like the guy - but he isn't some savior.  

agree completely, looking at stats Collin's is having a better year offensively then McCann with half the at bats.  McCann currently has a minus WAR, we all liked Mc Cann but like you said he wasn't some savior.  IMO, he just happened to have a couple decent years before he became a free agent, surprise surprise.

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