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Addressing the OF shortage (Robert Injury Spinoff)

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Posted (edited)
5 minutes ago, ptatc said:

Agreed. The primary issue for the Sox is that too many of their important veterans are not performing. All of the shuffling that TLR is doing is inconsequential if these guys don't hit.

This is the Post right here. 

For all the LaRussa bashing that goes on, Sox playing +.500 with dog ass performances by Abreu, Grandal, Moncada (until lately), then tack on all the injuries.....  LaRussa will be in the running for manager of the year. 

 

 

Edited by HOFHurt35
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4 minutes ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

But the question still remains is that good enough to win a World Series ? I know you just enjoy baseball and winning is secondary but the goal for most here is to win a World Series and established quality pitching, barring injury as you say, are much more likely to provide, well, certainty , rather than 3 of the 4 you named being, for lack of a better word, uncertainties.

Yes, it is good enough to win a World Series. Winning isn't secondary, but its not the only thing. Pitching is always an uncertainty. No team has certainty in pitching. As I've said previously, selling out for one year is not a good plan to win a World Series. The dodgers have been the best team for how many years and how long did it take them to win? they need to maximize the window so they have the best chance to catch that win.

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The Sox have gotten at least Eloy’s equivalent WAR value out of Mercedes thus far, and probably have been better defensively in left, even with Vaughn

Its likely Robert is gone six weeks, how much WAR do you really lose? Assuming he’s a 5 WAR player we lose 1.25 WAR and probably pick up .3 WAR from his replacements

the bullpen has been brutal at times, Giolito hasn’t pitched well, Keuchel has regressed, our backups look weak, Abreu is seriously showing his age...and yet we are 15-12, dead on pace for 90 wins. yes, I know weak teams, but Seattle has played well and the entire AL has been inconsistent, this appears to be anyone’s league to take who gets hot at the end. Sox can do that with Robert and Eloy both back in September. 

I suppose I understand the knee jerk reaction to trade at this point, but in my mind we are weathering an incredible storm and still fine record wise. I don’t like the idea of trading anything away when we are likely looking at a 1-win loss over the next six weeks.

 

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David Peralta is still a guy I like as a trade target. Left-handed, signed for $7.5m next year, Arizona (while over .500 now) probably won't be contending 2 months from now. Not sure what it would cost though.

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Just now, ptatc said:

Yes, it is good enough to win a World Series. Winning isn't secondary, but its not the only thing. Pitching is always an uncertainty. No team has certainty in pitching. As I've said previously, selling out for one year is not a good plan to win a World Series. The dodgers have been the best team for how many years and how long did it take them to win? they need to maximize the window so they have the best chance to catch that win.

I don't think it is. They will lose a certainty after this year in Lynn so they need a certainty in return. You think it's Kopech. I think it could be Kopech . You could be right but I'd rather be more certain. The Dodgers can afford to lose in the playoffs because they are in them almost every year and eventually that pays off in a World Series win.

The Sox rarely make the playoffs and certainly don't spend like the Dodgers. Our playoff appearances are rare gems that need to be polished and taken advantage of with a World Series win in the short window the Sox are going to have. All this talk about the future and selling out for this year means nothing. How often do we as fans get sold a bill of goods about the future and we still haven't had 2 playoff appearances in a row.  Time for people who care about winning to wise up, grab the brass ring while you're still on the merry-go round, because if the past leadership of JR is any indication we won't be on the ride long.

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8 minutes ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

I don't think it is. They will lose a certainty after this year in Lynn so they need a certainty in return. You think it's Kopech. I think it could be Kopech . You could be right but I'd rather be more certain. The Dodgers can afford to lose in the playoffs because they are in them almost every year and eventually that pays off in a World Series win.

The Sox rarely make the playoffs and certainly don't spend like the Dodgers. Our playoff appearances are rare gems that need to be polished and taken advantage of with a World Series win in the short window the Sox are going to have. All this talk about the future and selling out for this year means nothing. How often do we as fans get sold a bill of goods about the future and we still haven't had 2 playoff appearances in a row.  Time for people who care about winning to wise up, grab the brass ring while you're still on the merry-go round, because if the past leadership of JR is any indication we won't be on the ride long.

That's certainly not a certainty.

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49 minutes ago, JoeyCoralFanClub said:

Bryant is healthy and having a monster season so far. He would be the best hitter in the Sox lineup and can play multiple positions. 

I want to win a world series not just tread water all year. 

Bryant is a FA getting paid market value or slightly under. Giving up Crochet for a few months of any player is idiotic, not to mention when the Sox are well under full strength and likely will be for the rest of the season. I want the Sox to be in a position to win multiple championships - not push their chips in year 1 as a knee jerk reaction to Eloy/Robert getting hurt. 

Id love to trade for Bryant, but zero percent chance I am giving up Crochet for him, or really any of our top guys. Which means we won’t get him, which is also fine. Go trade for David Peralta or someone similar and give up very little - this team is still plenty good to make the playoffs. 

Sacrificing the backend of our window to go all in on 2021 would be beyond shortsighted, and Hahn isn’t going to do that. Sorry. 

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7 minutes ago, Greg Hibbard said:

The Sox have gotten at least Eloy’s equivalent WAR value out of Mercedes thus far, and probably have been better defensively in left, even with Vaughn

Its likely Robert is gone six weeks, how much WAR do you really lose? Assuming he’s a 5 WAR player we lose 1.25 WAR and probably pick up .3 WAR from his replacements

the bullpen has been brutal at times, Giolito hasn’t pitched well, Keuchel has regressed, our backups look weak, Abreu is seriously showing his age...and yet we are 15-12, dead on pace for 90 wins. yes, I know weak teams, but Seattle has played well and the entire AL has been inconsistent, this appears to be anyone’s league to take who gets hot at the end. Sox can do that with Robert and Eloy both back in September. 

I suppose I understand the knee jerk reaction to trade at this point, but in my mind we are weathering an incredible storm and still fine record wise. I don’t like the idea of trading anything away when we are likely looking at a 1-win loss over the next six weeks.

 

In one respect i suppose you could say it's knee jerk but as a very long time Sox fan it's also not knee jerk. I have observed how JR runs the team. The Sox have never had 2 seasons in a row of making the playoffs and if we miss them this year the record is still in tact. It's typical of the Sox front office to keep kicking the can down the road and we as fans start agreeing with it.

I wanted to maximize the window last year and get Lynn at the trade deadline. Ok Lost in the playoff. Everyone said it wasn't our year anyway. Fast forward to this year. Injuries taking a big chunk out of the team but let's just wait and see how it goes. Ok fine, we're kicking that can again in a year that the starting pitching might be the best we get for the whole window . How long does it take for everyone to realize that you are buying right into JR's M.O ?

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2 minutes ago, ChiSox59 said:

Sacrificing the backend of our window to go all in on 2021 would be beyond shortsighted, and Hahn isn’t going to do that. Sorry. 

This would not be a Hahn decision to go all in.

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1 minute ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

In one respect i suppose you could say it's knee jerk but as a very long time Sox fan it's also not knee jerk. I have observed how JR runs the team. The Sox have never had 2 seasons in a row of making the playoffs and if we miss them this year the record is still in tact. It's typical of the Sox front office to keep kicking the can down the road and we as fans start agreeing with it.

I wanted to maximize the window last year and get Lynn at the trade deadline. Ok Lost in the playoff. Everyone said it wasn't our year anyway. Fast forward to this year. Injuries taking a big chunk out of the team but let's just wait and see how it goes. Ok fine, we're kicking that can again in a year that the starting pitching might be the best we get for the whole window . How long does it take for everyone to realize that you are buying right into JR's M.O ?

I concede your point but it’s likely the Sox would have made the playoffs in 1994 if it wasn’t for the strike, and in 2006 they won’t 90 games and missed it, and I think we all know that was somewhat rough luck. 
 

I suppose the question I would ask back to you is how many wins you think we lose if Robert’s injury is 6 weeks and how many do we win back with a trade and what are we giving up? 

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1 minute ago, Quin said:

That's certainly not a certainty.

People have been talking about extending Vaughn and Lynn for months . Many thought Vaughn would be extended before the season started. I said he wouldn't. May be the only one who said it. Why wouldn't Lynn test free agency ? Because JR is such a generous owner ?

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6 minutes ago, ChiSox59 said:

Bryant is a FA getting paid market value or slightly under. Giving up Crochet for a few months of any player is idiotic, not to mention when the Sox are well under full strength and likely will be for the rest of the season. I want the Sox to be in a position to win multiple championships - not push their chips in year 1 as a knee jerk reaction to Eloy/Robert getting hurt. 

Id love to trade for Bryant, but zero percent chance I am giving up Crochet for him, or really any of our top guys. Which means we won’t get him, which is also fine. Go trade for David Peralta or someone similar and give up very little - this team is still plenty good to make the playoffs. 

Sacrificing the backend of our window to go all in on 2021 would be beyond shortsighted, and Hahn isn’t going to do that. Sorry. 

SO does that mean we are in the middle of our window now and how long is the back end going to last if we keep kicking the can down the road ? 2023 ?

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5 minutes ago, fathom said:

This would not be a Hahn decision to go all in.

Hahn or the 85-year old owner?

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1 minute ago, manbearpuig said:

Hahn or the 85-year old owner?

Tony

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Posted (edited)

If Lynn signs an extension,it's because it's a very team friendly deal. does Lynn do it because maybe his IL stint possibly hurts his value as a FA?  I know Jerry isn't gonna give him a lucrative deal now that he's been sidelined once already, he was supposed to be the guy who's a lock and never gets hurt

Edited by joesaiditstrue

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Posted (edited)
52 minutes ago, ptatc said:

I would disagree. The Bulls FO hadn't shown the ability to put together a good roster. The Sox FO has put together a good roster and looks to be for a few years. Many FO and people around baseball agree the sox have built a pretty good team. The should be allowed to see it through.

I’m talking about the recent make over, Michael Reinsdorf swapping out Jerry’s decades old relics last offseason with professional competent management.

Hahn has spent more than a full years payroll on a #4/#5 starter people are hoping doesn’t vest his 4th year, and a catcher who has matched his backups the past two seasons. His prior high priced FAs have also been busts. He’s not trusted enough in the organization to ever select a manager.

If it weren’t for Jerry’s preferred dysfunctional management style, Hahn and Kenny would have been swept out in 2015-2016. Thankfully for Hahn, nobody ever gets fired in a Reinsdorf FO, and there is never any accountability.

You blame the players for not performing. Who acquired those players for the past decade? Which team accumulated the second worst record in MLB since Hahn was hired (thank you Miami)?

Edited by South Side Hit Men

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1 hour ago, fathom said:

Sox need Abreu and Grandal to show up this year. If they continue to underperform so badly, it’s going to be nearly impossible to make the postseason. Personally, I think the Royals are a lot better than people give them credit for.  Hard to imagine the Sox running away with this.

Even if they do show up which I suspect will happen given their track records, however much offense we gain we could just as likely lose if Eaton gets nagging injuries, Mercedes becomes human and Robert is MIA. If the Sox need more HR's take a shot at Sam Hilliard and see what the Rockies want for him rather than Tapia. Big time pop but 27 and not on the Rockies 25 atm , has shown flashes of being good but one of those big time K bats. Can play any OF position and is LH.

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30 minutes ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

I don't think it is. They will lose a certainty after this year in Lynn so they need a certainty in return. You think it's Kopech. I think it could be Kopech . You could be right but I'd rather be more certain. The Dodgers can afford to lose in the playoffs because they are in them almost every year and eventually that pays off in a World Series win.

The Sox rarely make the playoffs and certainly don't spend like the Dodgers. Our playoff appearances are rare gems that need to be polished and taken advantage of with a World Series win in the short window the Sox are going to have. All this talk about the future and selling out for this year means nothing. How often do we as fans get sold a bill of goods about the future and we still haven't had 2 playoff appearances in a row.  Time for people who care about winning to wise up, grab the brass ring while you're still on the merry-go round, because if the past leadership of JR is any indication we won't be on the ride long.

Ok. I don't think its the way to go but that's alright.

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6 minutes ago, South Side Hit Men said:

I’m talking about the recent make over, Michael Reinsdorf swapping out Jerry’s decades old relics last offseason with professional competent management.

Hahn has spent more than a full years payroll on a #4/#5 starter people are hoping doesn’t vest his 4th year, and a catcher who has matched his backups the past two seasons. His prior high priced FAs have also been busts. He’s not trusted enough in the organization to ever select a manager.

If it weren’t for Jerry’s preferred dysfunctional management style, Hahn and Kenny would have been swept out in 2015-2016. Thankfully for Hahn, nobody ever gets fired in a Reinsdorf FO, and there is never any accountability.

You blame the players for not performing. Who acquired those players for the past decade? Which team accumulated the second worst record in MLB since Hahn was hired (thank you Miami)?

I think the past decade decision of constantly rehashing veterans was above the FO pay grade. It wasn't until they were allowed to tear it down and fully rebuild that we saw true progress. I'm willing to give them the time to see it through.

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3 minutes ago, ptatc said:

I think the past decade decision of constantly rehashing veterans was above the FO pay grade. It wasn't until they were allowed to tear it down and fully rebuild that we saw true progress. I'm willing to give them the time to see it through.

He just spent $150M on two rehashed veterans, $23M on complete busts last season (Parrot, Gio and Mazara), burning money on two managers this year with his Renteria extension, and pissing away $60M more during the three tanking years (Kelvin Herrera, Yonder Alonso, Wellington Castillo and Todd Frazier). 

Hahn pissed away a quarter of a billion dollars in the past four off seasons, after he was declared “all growns up”.

 

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Posted (edited)
43 minutes ago, Greg Hibbard said:

I concede your point but it’s likely the Sox would have made the playoffs in 1994 if it wasn’t for the strike, and in 2006 they won’t 90 games and missed it, and I think we all know that was somewhat rough luck. 
 

I suppose the question I would ask back to you is how many wins you think we lose if Robert’s injury is 6 weeks and how many do we win back with a trade and what are we giving up? 

I don't think it's as simple as that. Games are not played on a spread sheet. I think it would benefit the team knowing that Sox management is committed to winning a World Series this year. That's what all the talk was about from management and players alike during the off season and pre season. I don't think we are alone in questioning just how committed the front office is . I think the players question it too.

I don't think I am qualified to make a ton of trade suggestions. I have made a few and the only other ones I have seen anyone attempt is suggesting Kris Bryant and David Peralta. Both of which I like. I just don't know all possible players who fit the team's need. I have been talking a about a few LHH OFer's but I think we need another quality relief pitcher too. 

It's very hard to say how much difference acquiring players will have. It depends on the quality and how they perform. An OF and a relief pitcher would be better than just one of those. There's also a morale factor.  Maybe the Sox still get shut out yesterday with Robert in the lineup , maybe they were bummed out. It's very hard to lose your best offensive player and arguably your best all around player and not have it effect the team deeply in more than just the spreadsheet. I think the players and us need to be reminded or actually made to think for the 1st time that management will go above and beyond to win and not just wait for the smoke to clear while we wait for the inevitable losing 8 of 10 against division opponents.

Edited by CaliSoxFanViaSWside

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3 minutes ago, South Side Hit Men said:

He just spent $150M on two rehashed veterans, $23M on complete busts last season (Parrot, Gio and Mazara), burning money on two managers this year with his Renteria extension, and pissing away $60M more during the three tanking years (Kelvin Herrera, Yonder Alonso, Wellington Castillo and Todd Frazier). 

Hahn pissed away a quarter of a billion dollars in the past four off seasons, after he was declared “all growns up”.

 

He also acquired, Grandal, Madrigal, Moncada, Kopech, Jimenez,  Cease, Vaughn, Collins, keuchal, Lynn, Robert, Heuer, Foster, Bummer and Hedricks. While signing a number of them to team friendly long term deals.

No one is going to get them all right. The team the past 2 years is showing promise. 

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Spun off because Robert's injury was not the focus.

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Even before we lost Roberts to the IL, the Sox were not a lock to win the Division or even to make the play-offs. Did you watch all the games against the Angels and Indians ?  Our bullpen has let numerous leads slip away,. Almost every one of them has been touched up except Kopech, who is slated to become a starter.

Vaughn is a fan favorite and is constantly talked up  by Stone and Benny.  I'm not sold on him becoming an All-Star. He looks adequate in LF because he catches fly balls hit withing 15 feet of where he stands, and then just shags everything else after it hits the ground.  I want to see Vaughn in every game to see how he fares in LF and at the plate.

I also want to see if Collins can hit like he did in Spring Training.  He looks much better defensively though.

Mercedes looks like a good answer at DH moving forward. Again, he needs to continue to prove himself.

Trading any part of the Cuban core - Abreu, Eloy, Moncada, Robert should not be an option, at least not for the foreseeable future.  They are the core that could compete for a championship if all else goes well.  With two of them out, I think the Division is a long shot. Maybe use this season as a proving ground for a few of the young players and pitchers,  strap it down, enjoy the show and wait until next year for the team to win the Division .  That may become obvious well before the All Star break.

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