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QUOTE (fattyguy78 @ Aug 13, 2009 -> 12:35 PM)
Hawk was saying something ridiculous the other night and correct me if im wrong but i think he said the aj has never been on the dl either...i thought that was crazy considering the amount of abuse his body takes

 

Yes, I heard him say that, too. And I thought the same thing. It's surprising that a catcher who's been playing for as long as he has has not been on the DL.

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I don't know if he would want to or not, but I would love to have Flowers mentor under AJ for a year. There aren't many better people to learn the mental game of baseball from.

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QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Aug 13, 2009 -> 09:48 PM)
I don't know if he would want to or not, but I would love to have Flowers mentor under AJ for a year. There aren't many better people to learn the mental game of baseball from.

 

I hate seeing young players not getting enough full playing time in the bigs... but this I won't mind at all. Assuming Flowers can play versus lefties and alot of righties while giving AJ a decent amount of playing time, will do wonders for Flowers in order of calling a game better/calling a pitch in a certian situation, how to block a ball at the right spot, when/how to talk to a pitcher if he's off that night, etc.. etc.. in the future. I definitely think AJ can mentor him alot as Buehrle is to Danks (and Richard when he was here) Lets just hope Flowers can continue adjusting well in AAA and continue to hit first.

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QUOTE (hogan873 @ Aug 13, 2009 -> 12:42 PM)
Yes, I heard him say that, too. And I thought the same thing. It's surprising that a catcher who's been playing for as long as he has has not been on the DL.

based on his games played every year i'd say that's probably accurate. he's played approximately the same number of games every full year he's played in the majors. damn impressive.

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I love AJ-he has that "edge" that so few players in this town have. Doesnt try to be "loveable" and would do anything to help you win. I hope he finishes here-then stays on as a coach

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QUOTE (klaus kinski @ Aug 13, 2009 -> 10:06 PM)
I love AJ-he has that "edge" that so few players in this town have. Doesnt try to be "loveable" and would do anything to help you win. I hope he finishes here-then stays on as a coach

 

I think AJ would have a tough time as a coach. He would struggle with players who would not match his intensity, and who made repeated mental mistakes.

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QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Aug 13, 2009 -> 09:48 PM)
I don't know if he would want to or not, but I would love to have Flowers mentor under AJ for a year. There aren't many better people to learn the mental game of baseball from.

This is pretty much what I suggested in one of the other Flowers or AJ threads yesterday. But I also said that I wasn't sure AJ would be willing to be that guy. Would you want to train your own replacement, if you were still fairly young and good at your job? And remember, good or bad, we are talking about AJ here.

 

 

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QUOTE (NorthSideSox72 @ Aug 13, 2009 -> 10:54 AM)
Flowers' bat is a huge upgrade over AJ, most likely. He raked in AA, putting up a ridiculous .302/.445/.548/.993 line. And now after 18 games in AAA, he seems to be figuring that out too - he's hitting .351 in his last 10 games, and has a .294/.333/.441/.775 line there so far in 68 AB. His High A line last year included a .921 OPS. The guy can rake.

 

Flowers' defense has been questioned, though looking at the few numbers I can find, and listening to some folks who have seen him play, it sounds like that area of his game is improving and isn't too bad either. And its not as if AJ is a great defender.

 

But that all said, AJ brings a lot more to the table than a bat and a glove. We don't know if Flowers will be able to provide that. But I like the idea of Flowers backing up AJ next year, hopefully to learn some of those more subtle but important aspects of catching - game calling, pitcher handling, etc. Flowers can also then take a year to adjust slowly to major league pitching as a hitter. This works well for Flowers to start in 2011.

 

One potential wrench in the works though - I don't know how well AJ will react to, basically, training his replacement. Looking at the total package, AJ is still a darn good guy to have as your starting catcher, and he could start elsewhere. He may get pissed and want to leave, or he may just not want to be helpful with Flowers. Hopefully this is a non-issue, but let's be honest - how many of us would feel good about training our replacement when we still felt like we were good at our job?

 

Its a good problem to have. We have one good catcher on the team, and another potentially very good one coming up.

If its most like Flowers is a huge upgrade over .280 with 15 homers, they might as well start making his bust for Cooperstown. If Flowers sticks as a catcher, and that is still a big if, catching will take its toll on him. I remember when the White Sox couldn't wait to get rid of Carlton Fisk behind the plate. First Joel Skinner, who was pretty highly thought of, although IIRC, didn't do too much in the minors, the Karkovice a #1 pick who had a huge season in Birmingham as a 22 year old. I wouldn't be surprised if his season in Birmingham was better than what Flowers did this year.

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QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Aug 14, 2009 -> 05:06 PM)
If its most like Flowers is a huge upgrade over .280 with 15 homers, they might as well start making his bust for Cooperstown. If Flowers sticks as a catcher, and that is still a big if, catching will take its toll on him. I remember when the White Sox couldn't wait to get rid of Carlton Fisk behind the plate. First Joel Skinner, who was pretty highly thought of, although IIRC, didn't do too much in the minors, the Karkovice a #1 pick who had a huge season in Birmingham as a 22 year old. I wouldn't be surprised if his season in Birmingham was better than what Flowers did this year.

Carlton Fisk's career behind the plate lasted 20 years before the Sox started cutting back on his AB's. If Flowers catches for the Sox for 20 years, yeah, it'll take its toll on him.

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QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Aug 14, 2009 -> 07:06 PM)
If its most like Flowers is a huge upgrade over .280 with 15 homers, they might as well start making his bust for Cooperstown. If Flowers sticks as a catcher, and that is still a big if, catching will take its toll on him. I remember when the White Sox couldn't wait to get rid of Carlton Fisk behind the plate. First Joel Skinner, who was pretty highly thought of, although IIRC, didn't do too much in the minors, the Karkovice a #1 pick who had a huge season in Birmingham as a 22 year old. I wouldn't be surprised if his season in Birmingham was better than what Flowers did this year.

AJ's OPS numbers as a Sox player (full years 2005-2008): .728, .769, .712, .728

 

Those are pretty good for a catcher, but nothing spectacular. Being significantly better, say around .800, would be considered a pretty big upgrade, and I think that's a real possibility for Flowers in his prime years. But Flowers would have to do that consistently for 15-20 years (meaning until he was 40) to put up HOF numbers.

 

So when comparing to AJ, who is past his prime (probably), no, you don't need to put up HOF type numbers. At all.

 

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QUOTE (NorthSideSox72 @ Aug 14, 2009 -> 07:49 PM)
AJ's OPS numbers as a Sox player (full years 2005-2008): .728, .769, .712, .728

 

Those are pretty good for a catcher, but nothing spectacular. Being significantly better, say around .800, would be considered a pretty big upgrade, and I think that's a real possibility for Flowers in his prime years. But Flowers would have to do that consistently for 15-20 years (meaning until he was 40) to put up HOF numbers.

 

So when comparing to AJ, who is past his prime (probably), no, you don't need to put up HOF type numbers. At all.

Johnny Bench career OPS .817. Ivan Rodriquez career OPS .809. Carlton Fisk career OPS .797. Carlton Fisk White Sox OPS .766. IF Flowers puts up an OPS of .800 as a catcher, he's HOF material. Chances are, he won't. White Sox fans need to appreciate what they have in AJP. The catching situation has been pretty good with the Sox since 2005.

Edited by Dick Allen

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QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Aug 15, 2009 -> 07:46 AM)
Johnny Bench career OPS .817. Ivan Rodriquez career OPS .809. Carlton Fisk career OPS .797. Carlton Fisk White Sox OPS .766. IF Flowers puts up an OPS of .800 as a catcher, he's HOF material.

 

That would be strongly dependent on how long he plays. In this day and age, I think that you need either 300 HRs or 200 HRs and a Mauer-like batting average to get into the Hall as a catcher. If he puts up an OPS of .800 for six or seven years and then flames out, he won't come close.

 

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QUOTE (WCSox @ Aug 15, 2009 -> 10:00 AM)
That would be strongly dependent on how long he plays. In this day and age, I think that you need either 300 HRs or 200 HRs and a Mauer-like batting average to get into the Hall as a catcher. If he puts up an OPS of .800 for six or seven years and then flames out, he won't come close.

The original post I replied to mention Flowers as a possible "huge" upgrade from AJP. I can't recall if defense or calling a game, (which, BTW, White Sox coaches will not do) had anything to do with it, but when you consider Fisk's .766 OPS with the Sox and AJP's .744 OPS with the Sox, a huge upgrade would be an upgrade over Carlton Fisk and he has his likeness on the OF wall. Fisk put up an OPS of 800 or higher 8 times in his career when he played at least 100 games. 2 of those came after he turned 40. Bench had an OPS when he caught at least 100 games of at least .800 9 times. Ivan Rodriquez, 8 times in the same situation. Piazza blows them all away, and he'll be a HOF, although not without suspicion.

Edited by Dick Allen

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QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Aug 15, 2009 -> 08:14 AM)
The original post I replied to mention Flowers as a possible "huge" upgrade from AJP. I can't recall if defense or calling a game, (which, BTW, White Sox coaches will not do) had anything to do with it, but when you consider Fisk's .766 OPS with the Sox and AJP's .744 OPS with the Sox, a huge upgrade would be an upgrade over Carlton Fisk and he has his likeness on the OF wall. Fisk put up an OPS of 800 or higher 8 times in his career when he played at least 100 games. 2 of those came after he turned 40. Bench had an OPS when he caught at least 100 games of at least .800 9 times. Ivan Rodriquez, 8 times in the same situation. Piazza blows them all away, and he'll be a HOF, although not without suspicion.

 

It's also worth considering that Fisk and Bench played the game in an era where an .800 OPS was more difficult to achieve.

 

But I completely agree that, even in a best-case scenario, Flowers projects to be more of a modest upgrade over AJP. A.J.'s no slouch at the plate.

 

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