Balta1701
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Posts posted by Balta1701
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7 minutes ago, WestEddy said:
Defend? I guess I defend because I don't see the point of the senseless attacks. I asked before, and CWS dude tried to derail it, do you feel they're bringing Noah Schultz along responsibly? Sounds like that's the exact program they're doing with him. So I don't see how you would have no confidence in the Sox pitching department when they're doing the very thing you describe on a young, inexperienced prospect, hitting the pros right out of high school.
So the guys who you must feel are bringing Schultz along responsibly, have made a different decision in regards to Crochet, and you have no confidence in them to make that decision? I don't get it.
The clock's ticking on Crochet. They have 3 years to develop him as a starter. Dropping him back down to AAA for a season might not sit well with the union or agent, regardless of what Crochet said he'd do.
So far I have no complaints about how they have worked with Schultz. This makes the fact that they are treating Crochet much more aggressively stand out as weird even more as that’s the type of program you put a guy on to build up his arm.
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6 minutes ago, WestEddy said:
I have read the 90-100 innings. I don't remember where.
I don't see the issue with him pitching half a season as a starter, then getting ramped down, or whatnot. I believe he's been injured every season he's pitched. So if he gets injured again, it's not going to be some great "AHA! I told you so!!" moment. Just letting Crochet pitch in any capacity is "just asking for trouble". Crochet has stated, and maybe the team agrees with him, that he'd do better with a regular 5-day program of throwing instead of the chaotic up and down as a bullpen reliever. So if they're going to do the unthinkable, and allow him to continue to pitch, why not do so in a more orderly fashion. He would throw just as hard in minor league games as he would in major league games.
Nobody has been able to explain why, if you have a very good pitcher like Crochet, why you'd want to bury him in the minor leagues and not let him pitch because he might get injured. Every single pitcher might get injured while pitching.
And Crochet threw as many pitches as he did in his final spring training game.
Because MLB is now a maximum effort pitching league, and there’s no reason why AAA needs to be one. He can build up his arm with repetition, improve muscle memory, and do so without having 50 or 60 max effort pitches every game right away.
Furthermore, they can use it to control his innings total more easily, they could have used him as a 40-50 pitch 3 inning opener at AAA without having it affect the big league bullpen. This would also have the benefit of limiting his total innings, making it more likely that he will be at a reasonable total of innings in August where he can pitch 5 months of the year rather than 3.
You could ramp his arm up much more slowly, with lower effort pitches and more controlled outings at least for the first month or two. With his injury history it sure seems smart.
But you also say the quiet part out loud - if he gets hurt, you will say “he was always going to get hurt”. It doesn’t matter how irresponsible Gets and Kats are, you will say that to defend them no matter what they do.
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2 minutes ago, WestEddy said:
I suppose when your entire waking hours are spent spouting pearl-clutching nonsense, you have to make up quotes to give some semblance of cred to it.
You know what? You're right. No baseball player should throw a baseball until 4 full years after his TJS.
You are a ridiculous person.
Didn’t you just justifiably complain about someone calling you a name two posts ago? I guess it’s ok as long as you are the one doing it. You’re important and correct.
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3 minutes ago, WestEddy said:
Okay, here we go with the name-calling. And the BS lies. I never said some secret location. I said that he logged innings in complex games that don't show up in the stats. You countered that other pitchers throw on the side, so that means that Crochet didn't actually throw any extra innings than what you can read on the back of his baseball card. That's you, digging in on nonsense, just to not to concede any part of any point.
You're shadow boxing, here. I seriously hope you find this "Baghdad Bob" guy and prove him wrong. As far as our discussion, I'm not sure what you're even doing, at this point. Nobody on this board has argued that Crochet should throw 180 innings (a full starter's load) this year. I've repeatedly said I thought they'd shut/ramp him down at 90-100 IP. So it seems that I'm agreeing with "White Sox professionals".
I hope you enjoy your trip to Baghdad.
White Sox: “we’re going to make Crochet a starter”.
Us: “that’s great just bring him along slowly”
Getz and Kats: “no”.
WE: “they just know what they’re doing, as long as they have an innings limit on him or about 100”.
Getz and Kats in July when he’s close to 90 innings: “Now let’s burn rubber baby!”
WE: in July: “well he’s been so successful in the first half let’s keep going, they must know what they’re doing.”
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6 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:
People have been telling you there is no substitute for pitching when it comes to being conditioned for pitching, and that because Garrett Crochet has never been healthy enough to pitch a starters workload, he isn't conditioned for a starters workload, but somehow Baghdad Bob has spun up some vast conspiracy where despite being injured perpetually, Garrett Crochet has accumulated enough conditioning in some secret, but totally enough, place to fool even the White Sox professionals who say he isn't conditioned for a full starters workload, despite the gap between he and every other full time starter being right there for you to see with any common sense at all.
Well you see if that wasn’t true then that would make Katz and Getz irresponsible, and since we know that they are excellent at their jobs it must be true that he threw innings somewhere else. The important thing is that we know the leadership has done a great job.
No I didn’t write this post in 2014, why do you ask?
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11 minutes ago, SoCalChiSox said:
So will Crochet
No he won’t.
it doesn’t matter if he’s the best pitcher in the league in the first half, no one will believe he can keep it up for 150 innings followed by a playoff run. He probably can’t.
Next year - certainly possible.
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6 minutes ago, 4OCS said:
Then how did countless other TJS pitchers come back after only the same TJS rehab Crochet went through, if not less advanced versions of it. I don’t think any of them could have put in the eqivalent of 1000 innings of work, wherever that came from, in those 18 months. It’s kind of flabbergasting that people are arguing that isn’t enough to prepare the arm for a full workload, when it has in fact been done repeatedly.
By gradually building up their arms and technique both before and after the injury?
Come on, seriously, how many pitchers can you count who have thrown under 250 innings total including college, the minors, and the majors, over 6 seasons, who are being treated as a normal starter? I would be surprised if the answer in the last 20 years is more than 1.
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37 minutes ago, Tnetennba said:
As yes, knuckle dragging drunken frat boy Wrigleyville transplants are peak human normality…
I only wanted the ABC link.
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52 minutes ago, Y2Jimmy0 said:
There was no minor league baseball and then Tony La Russa insisted on having him in the 2021 bullpen.
And then Tony LaRussa insisted on having him in the 2022 bullpen, and Tony LaRussa insisted on having him in the 2023 bullpen, because there’s no way anyone else could have made that decision.
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4 minutes ago, WestEddy said:
As has been pointed out, a pitcher starts rehabbing about 2 months after surgery. Please post his doctor's medical opinion, or just stop.
As has been pointed out, the average time for a pitcher to make their first appearance is just under 18 months. No big league pitcher has come back from TJS in that short of a period and thrown more than about 10 innings since 2019 as far as I could find.
What's actually ironic is that in January 2023, I wrote clearly that there was a smarter plan for Crochet - sending him to the minors, bringing him along slowly, and I specifically predicted that the White Sox would do the exact opposite, rush him back by May and he'd wind up just like one of the guys who threw under 10 innings. It could never have been more obvious how it was going to go.
It
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53 minutes ago, nrockway said:
I watched an "interview" of Chris Getz with AJ Pierzynski and friends last night. They asked him about Pedro and he sounded pretty frank that Pedro would be out of a job if he doesn't get good years out of Eloy, Moncada, Vaughn, Robert -- "the core". That the manager's only job is to get the best out of his players (duh) and that will be reflected on how those players perform. At least that's how I interpreted it. Seems like a reasonable barometer anyway.
I don't know how much of last season's dumpster fire can be pinned on Grifol. He certainly didn't help. I think he was the wrong hire to begin with but I don't see what it hurts giving him another year, maybe he can actually be good at his job under appropriate working conditions.
Beyond potentially being good at his job (I don't believe this), keeping him around another year might signal to his replacement that there's some job security in this manager position. haven't exactly shown a strong track record there recently. probably scares away proper candidates.
While driving home last night I heard Chuck interviewed by Buster Olney on ESPN Radio and one of the things Buster said was, to paraphrase "often when you hear about clubhouse issues they're minor or blown up, but from what I heard last year in Chicago those issues were real and they were bad."
Even the national guys got that part of the story.
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3 minutes ago, Bob Sacamano said:
Honestly, he was drafted to immediately help them in the pen in 2020. Would have been nice to have him working as a starter in the minors starting in 2021.
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46 minutes ago, WestEddy said:
Which, if it happens, would have happened as a starter or reliever. He had shoulder inflammation last year during his rehab stint.
Because Rick Hahn irresponsibly tried to rush him back to save his bullpen 13 months from Tommy John surgery.
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2 minutes ago, 4OCS said:
Tommy John himself came back from the first TJS, after roughly 18 months of rehab, and pitched 207 effective MLB innings without a single rehab appearance in “actual game play.” And that was some 45 years ago. Crochet has had more time than that with 40+ years of advancement to the process. If done properly, his arm should be a cannon by now
Pre injury, he had thrown 2165.2 major league innings.
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Just now, Nardiwashere said:
1. Who cares what people say? The objective is to win baseball games. Not some PR battle that only too-online-people on message boards and twitter will remember
2. A player has to explain what they feel. A trainer isn't a mind reader. If they say they feel ok and its a lie, what is the trainer supposed to do?
Yes, their objective is to win baseball games. Hurting Garret Crochet this year again rather than bringing him along slowly would hinder that.
A trainer can also plan ahead and anticipate potential issues in the long run. This is why guys get off days even if they aren't hurt. If you go to your trainer and outline how immediately you want to get off the couch and start a 4 hour a day weightlifting routine where every day you are doing max weight reps, your trainer is going to say "This is stupid" and if they're an actual coach for the organization you work for, they will prevent you from doing so.
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3 minutes ago, Nardiwashere said:
So what does this look like? He pitches half a year until he gets to 100ish innings and then gets shut down? Gaps in between starts? Does 100 IP sound right? If so, whats the target for next year?
The physical trainer expert here has said 80 innings as a goal the whole offseason. At the pace of yesterday, he'd get there in June.
I think they would probably like to push him beyond that, and I wouldn't complain about doing so, but I would have insisted they bring him along more slowly than the White Sox just did, with harder pitch limits and more rest especially in April. I would like to think that, if they were responsible and gave him a few breaks for fatigue or time in the minors they could push him to 125-ish innings and keep him around for most of the year, but with their actions early this season I have no idea what they actually will try to do. They may treat him as a normal starter and just figure they can put him on the IL once he feels pain.
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16 minutes ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:
So where does what Crochet wants to do fit in with your narrative. He's 25, a full grown man capable of making his own decisions. We absolutely agreed on the way we wanted him handled. Proceed with caution , minor leagues etc. but who are you to say what they all have decided is the absolute wrong way. Even if he is injured you still couldn't definitely say he wouldn't have got injured doing it any other way.
But take what you say and turn it the other way. If the White Sox would have been better off limiting Crochet to 50-60 pitches for the first month and building up slowly to 100, and they don't do that, and then he gets hurt - how many people are going to say "Damn they were irresponsible again" versus "oh well I guess he couldn't' handle it"? Almost everyone is going to say the latter, even if the former were true.
And second - yes, it is absolutely the coaches and athletic trainers jobs to know body mechanics, pitching, rehab, and recovery schedules more than an athlete. We know this from every sport, elite athletes will push themselves as hard as they can without recognizing where it puts their body's long term health at risk. NFL players will push themselves to get back on the field through concussions. Baseball players will ignore the pain in their elbow. This is a clear part of an effective coach's job and of an effective organization's job.
Reynaldo Lopez in his opening year felt something a little weird in his elbow. The trainers came out, he said he was fine, they went in. Jose Abreu walked to the mound, asked him what was up, he said he felt something weird, Abreu immediately called the trainers back out, they took him out and he went on the 10 day IL just to make sure something small didn't turn into something big. While the trainers needed to do a better job, this was Jose Abreu being the adult in the room and not letting his 23 year old starter overexert himself and hurt himself long term. The correct person in this scenario was Abreu.
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29 minutes ago, WestEddy said:
So, let me get this straight. The only way to rehab from TJS is to throw in real baseball games. And to not throw a lot of innings. He did that, but it was too aggressive.
Are you actually saying that it should take 4 years to come back from TJS?
You know, you could just admit you're wrong, instead of trying to rewrite all of medical history.
No, but I believe it could easily take 2 full years for a pitcher to build up an arm from being a reliever to a starter.
I also believe that true TJS recovery to get back to the point where the body can handle pitching at all takes 18 months, unless this new technique changers things.
TJS followed by building up the arm of a guy who has never been a starter before definitely seems to be a 3 to 4 year managed process.
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14 minutes ago, 4OCS said:
Crochet had Tommy John surgery on april 2, 2022. The healing time is approximately two months, the rest is arm rehabilitation. So he has been rebuilding his arm since approximately june 2, 2022. That’s nearly two years, he should be stronger than ever if that rehab was done properly
There is no version of "arm rehabilitation" that is a substitute for throwing in actual baseball games, and there's no way on Earth he got his arm in any sort of condition in 2023. They pushed him way too hard because Rick Hahn needed him to save his bullpen and that caused shoulder inflammation - in what was absolutely the most predictable series of events I have ever seen in my life.
He has to throw in actual baseball games regularly to build up his arm. This process will not be completed this year, it probably won't even be completed next year. Using him as a starter and seeing him have some success is step 1 in this, however the only reason I can't say "I'm surprised they are using him this aggressively with 87 pitches on opening day" is that I'm so used to having them do super reckless things with Garret Crochet already that not surprising at all. Perhaps baffling is a better word.
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1 hour ago, BigHurt3515 said:
If he gives us 4 solid innings in the first start I will be shocked
They're going to push him to like 80 pitches unless he's getting shelled.
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4 minutes ago, Lip Man 1 said:
I saw where this was expected given they don't need a 5th starter for 10 days or so.
No, they have only 1 scheduled Offday before April 11. They will need their 5th starter soon unless there’s a rainout.
They wrote that they would do something stupid like pitch Crochet on normal rest in game 5 and call up the 5th starter for game 6, rather than giving Crochet extra rest (obviously with his history as a reliable innings eater he doesn’t need an extra Offday betweeen any of his first 3 starts).
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1 minute ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:
So is something official coming out today with the final 26 ?
And sacrifice the vital element of surprise?
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8 minutes ago, Quin said:
Math hurt brain
Y'all be writing that without realizing that this is the official policy of the White Sox. Both in game and front office.
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