wrathofhahn Posted June 11, 2018 Author Share Posted June 11, 2018 55 minutes ago, dominik-keul@gmx.de said: Also almost all of his pitches are terrible. We knew his FB is bad if it is under 95 (straight and mediocre spin) and his change isn't the greatest but his CB which was highly touted also has negative pitch value on FG. the only pitch with a positive value is his slider. that is a good thing and maybe he should ramp it's usage up but then again it is just one good pitch. maybe this at least gives him a reliever floor because one solid pitch obviously isn't getting it done twice or thrice through the lineup. Best hope I have for him at this point is he become a reliever and finds some of his missing velocity as failed starters sometimes do. No idea what we are doing continuing to send him out there with mediocre stuff and being unable to locate his pitches. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted June 11, 2018 Share Posted June 11, 2018 Just now, wrathofhahn said: Best hope I have for him at this point is he become a reliever and finds some of his missing velocity as failed starters sometimes do. No idea what we are doing continuing to send him out there with mediocre stuff and being unable to locate his pitches. Learning nothing from the past. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CaliSoxFanViaSWside Posted June 11, 2018 Share Posted June 11, 2018 During the Boston series didn't Stone say on one of the telecasts that Cooper said Giolito had a really good side session this week ? I guess we will find out if it translates tonight against all those good lefties on the Tribe. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richie Posted June 11, 2018 Share Posted June 11, 2018 1 hour ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said: During the Boston series didn't Stone say on one of the telecasts that Cooper said Giolito had a really good side session this week ? I guess we will find out if it translates tonight against all those good lefties on the Tribe. I'd be satisfied with him just avoiding a blow-up outing tonight. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chitownsportsfan Posted June 11, 2018 Share Posted June 11, 2018 1 hour ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said: During the Boston series didn't Stone say on one of the telecasts that Cooper said Giolito had a really good side session this week ? I guess we will find out if it translates tonight against all those good lefties on the Tribe. Stone said it was the best this year according to Cooper. Show me, ya know? Come out and execute when it matters. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted June 11, 2018 Share Posted June 11, 2018 His last two starts have also been better. The walks are down, and the groundballs are up. His velocity has also started coming back up in his last two starts, with more emphasis on the fastball (highest usage rates this year in his last two starts) along with a push toward the change and curve instead of the slider. We'll see if it carries through tonight, but the needle has been looking up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steveno89 Posted June 11, 2018 Share Posted June 11, 2018 24 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said: His last two starts have also been better. The walks are down, and the groundballs are up. His velocity has also started coming back up in his last two starts, with more emphasis on the fastball (highest usage rates this year in his last two starts) along with a push toward the change and curve instead of the slider. We'll see if it carries through tonight, but the needle has been looking up. I think we all can take a look at Dylan Covey and realize it would be far too soon to give up on Giolito. Young pitchers often take time to put it all together. In a rebuilding year we need to keep trotting Giolito out there and hope he figures it out. Incremental improvements will be important. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dam8610 Posted June 11, 2018 Share Posted June 11, 2018 6 hours ago, dominik-keul@gmx.de said: Also almost all of his pitches are terrible. We knew his FB is bad if it is under 95 (straight and mediocre spin) and his change isn't the greatest but his CB which was highly touted also has negative pitch value on FG. the only pitch with a positive value is his slider. that is a good thing and maybe he should ramp it's usage up but then again it is just one good pitch. maybe this at least gives him a reliever floor because one solid pitch obviously isn't getting it done twice or thrice through the lineup. Or maybe we let him work through being a Major League Starting Pitcher at the age of 23 and hope he develops to the point that those negative value pitches become positive value ones. Corey Kluber wasn't the Corey Kluber we know today that's won 2 Cy Young Awards until he was 28. Besides, it's not like there's anything at stake for the team this season, so you might as well see if development time will turn him into the player we hoped we were getting from Washington. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chitownsportsfan Posted June 11, 2018 Share Posted June 11, 2018 I think the needle pointing up was just the needle bouncing off the bottom of the guage. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pcq Posted June 11, 2018 Share Posted June 11, 2018 I don't think MLB starter is where you work out his issues. It could be overwhelming. Good luck tonite though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Parkman Posted June 12, 2018 Share Posted June 12, 2018 This doesn't sound like a guy who's a mental headcase. I tend to think his issues are more physical than mental. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Sacamano Posted June 12, 2018 Share Posted June 12, 2018 (edited) Anyone else feel like his delivery sucks and is likely the problem? Maybe he should work on smoothing that out and maybe just switching to more of a Verlander type of delivery where its little effort. Edited June 12, 2018 by soxfan2014 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Parkman Posted June 12, 2018 Share Posted June 12, 2018 1 minute ago, soxfan2014 said: Anyone else feel like his delivery sucks and is likely the problem? Maybe he should work on smoothing that out and maybe just switching to more of a Verlander type of delivery where its little effort. Yes, I think that is a possibility. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dam8610 Posted June 12, 2018 Share Posted June 12, 2018 2 minutes ago, soxfan2014 said: Anyone else feel like his delivery sucks and is likely the problem? Maybe he should work on smoothing that out and maybe just switching to more of a Verlander type of delivery where its little effort. The whole reason Washington traded him is they screwed up his mechanics. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Sacamano Posted June 12, 2018 Share Posted June 12, 2018 5 minutes ago, Dam8610 said: The whole reason Washington traded him is they screwed up his mechanics. Well it still looks pretty fucked up haha Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kyyle23 Posted June 12, 2018 Share Posted June 12, 2018 17 minutes ago, Jack Parkman said: This doesn't sound like a guy who's a mental headcase. I tend to think his issues are more physical than mental. a guy saying he is beating himself sounds like a mental problem. You can see him fall apart on the mound when his mechanics fall apart. Just like last night, he walks two guys(after having both hitters 0-2 and 1-2), gives up a bloop, and then gives up a double to Yan Gomez. He falls apart. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dam8610 Posted June 12, 2018 Share Posted June 12, 2018 3 minutes ago, soxfan2014 said: Well it still looks pretty fucked up haha I hear "unfucking pitching mechanics" is part of Don Cooper's job description. I also hear he's pretty good at his job. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Parkman Posted June 12, 2018 Share Posted June 12, 2018 (edited) 3 minutes ago, Kyyle23 said: a guy saying he is beating himself sounds like a mental problem. You can see him fall apart on the mound when his mechanics fall apart. Just like last night, he walks two guys(after having both hitters 0-2 and 1-2), gives up a bloop, and then gives up a double to Yan Gomez. He falls apart. As a pitcher, beating yourself =/= mental issues. Pitching is like golfing, if you're thinking about mechanics you're done. Really hard to think about the hitter when you're thinking about mechanics. Edited June 12, 2018 by Jack Parkman Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kyyle23 Posted June 12, 2018 Share Posted June 12, 2018 Just now, Jack Parkman said: As a pitcher, beating yourself =/= mental issues. Pitching is like golfing, if you're thinking about mechanics you're done. yea....thats a mental issue, thinking about mechanics. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Parkman Posted June 12, 2018 Share Posted June 12, 2018 (edited) 22 minutes ago, Kyyle23 said: yea....thats a mental issue, thinking about mechanics. Well, it's both. It is a physical issue that leads to a mental issue that puts someone in a downward spiral. This is like a pro golfer doing a swing change. It takes time for the new mechanics to take hold. A pro golfer that has to change his swing knows he's going to miss fairways/greens/cuts and otherwise performs badly for a while. Similarly, a pitcher doing mechanical adjustments knows he's going to walk guys/have trouble with command for a while. it's all a process. Edited June 12, 2018 by Jack Parkman Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted June 12, 2018 Share Posted June 12, 2018 All that after Giolito changed his mechanics in July (of 2016). He shortened his windup in pursuit of better balance, dropping a step back in favor of positioning that made him start his delivery almost from the stretch position. To see a young pitcher make an alteration was one thing. To hear Giolito say the decision how to change was about 90 percent his, the rest left to the organization, was strange. Baseball’s top pitching prospect had decided to alter his delivery on his own. https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2016/dec/8/untouchable-no-more-lucas-giolitos-dramatic-fall/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chitownsportsfan Posted June 12, 2018 Share Posted June 12, 2018 Among other things he stinks from the stretch so "simpler" might not be necessarily better. I think he thinks too much on the mound. He gets in his own head and starts throwing tight and aiming. He should be down in AAA working on gaining confidence imo. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Southwest Sider Posted June 12, 2018 Share Posted June 12, 2018 Boy, it's nice to have a lot of pitching prospects. Fortunately, we're not relying on Lucas to become a permanent member of our rotation on the next competitive Sox team. That said, it's also nice to be able to give him every opportunity to succeed. There are strange advantages to tanking, sometimes. No doubt, Giolito would be in AAA if the Sox were trying to win games. Ultimately I will trust whatever decision the Sox make on him. They may believe that he could be turning the corner soon, and that sending him to AAA now with the different baseballs would be pointless. Whatever it is, I'm rooting for him to make our process of boiling down our next competitive rotation easier, even if he ends up being the #5 instead of the #2 we had hoped. His shortcomings make the Eaton trade look even better. I know that sounds weird, but being able to get 2 more pitching prospects... essentially lotto tickets was key. You have a good shot of at least 1 of those guys making it, and if that happens, that is great and it was a good trade, Eaton's unfortunate injuries notwithstanding. All I think about when I start to get frustrated by Giolito or Fulmers shortcomings is the following: Kopech Lopez Giolito Fulmer Covey Hansen Cease Dunning Stephens Adams That is pretty decent starter depth, and it's not even a complete list. It's basically 10 lotto tickets. If you hit on 50% of them, you have your rotation. Some of them even carry better odds, like Kopech, Lopez and seemingly Hansen, Cease and Dunning. There could also be more Covey types who throw themselves into this mix, or Quintana types who come out of nowhere. We are relatively insulated to the potential failure of Giolito. It is nice that we aren't depending on him to hit his ceiling. Giolito strikes me as the kind of guy who with age and baseball wisdom will overcome mental problems and let his skillset do the work. Let's just hope it happens sooner rather than later. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eminor3rd Posted June 12, 2018 Share Posted June 12, 2018 18 hours ago, chitownsportsfan said: I think the needle pointing up was just the needle bouncing off the bottom of the guage. I agree. To me, his stuff just isn't MLB-quality at this point, and refinement of his command won;t change that. I would think they'd want to try some mechanical changes that could unlock more velocity or movement, and the place to do that is definitely the minors. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chitownsportsfan Posted June 12, 2018 Share Posted June 12, 2018 (edited) 12 minutes ago, Eminor3rd said: I agree. To me, his stuff just isn't MLB-quality at this point, and refinement of his command won;t change that. I would think they'd want to try some mechanical changes that could unlock more velocity or movement, and the place to do that is definitely the minors. Last night when he fell apart I wondered if the same would have happened down in AAA (for whatever reasons) or if he could have righted the ship (again for whatever reasons) down there and walked out of his start with some confidence for next time. The Indians broadcast had an extended shot of him in the dugout after he left and in the game thread I described it as "bad body language guy". He just seemed deflated but he did come out early and actually look like a fairly talented young pitcher -- he just lost it at the slightest sign of some adversity. Let him try and work out his issues against lower competition with less pressure so maybe next time he faces some adversity at the MLB level he can remember how he fought through it at a lower level. If he still stinks in AAA then it was never going to work but it's hard to see him "working through this" in MLB, last night is just more evidence for that. Edited June 12, 2018 by chitownsportsfan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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