2021 Hall of Fame Ballot

[flavum]

I don't mind Clemens and Bonds getting in because they were among the best of the best of all time while the entire game was on steroids. But anyone who thinks Sammy Sosa could put up those numbers without taking hardcore steroids is baseball stupid. A vote for Sosa is a bad vote-period.  And the Schilling stuff is laughable. He's a douche, but the K to walk ratio and postseason career speak for themselves.  

[Squirmin' for Yermin]

They need to have a * (astericks) side of the hall of fame for these guys.. There's no way Bonds, Sosa, Clemens, etc. shouldn't be represented.. Just give them a *.

[Quin]

1 minute ago, Squirmin' for Yermin said:

They need to have a * (astericks) side of the hall of fame for these guys.. There's no way Bonds, Sosa, Clemens, etc. shouldn't be represented.. Just give them a *.

Nah, they get in or they don't.

If you put an asterisk next to them, put an asterisk next to Ted Williams that says "introduced meth to baseball" and label every every single person who ever used greenies as such.

[Lonchair]

Please read Joe Posnanski on any form because as well as being very involved with the HOF, he’s an excellent historian of baseball in general. The cases made for & against players hold a bigger view of what the Hall is, or should be, about. It’s a museum to baseball. It’s a polarizing subject that may continue to be debated for decades. The system needs to be revamped, researched, & improved. Posnanski’s explanation is far better than I can even try to convey. 
As far as Mark getting in, I hope down the road he does. But I’m bias as a Sox fan. He’s one of those players on the edge of yes or no. 

[Squirmin' for Yermin]

45 minutes ago, Quin said:

Nah, they get in or they don't.

If you put an asterisk next to them, put an asterisk next to Ted Williams that says "introduced meth to baseball" and label every every single person who ever used greenies as such.

meth didn't make him a better hitter.  The * are for those who cheated throughout most their career.

[Kyyle23]

Just now, Squirmin' for Yermin said:

meth didn't make him a better hitter.  The * are for those who cheated throughout most their career.

Ok so who determines when it started and exactly which benefits were obvious due to steroids and not talent 

[Quin]

19 minutes ago, Squirmin' for Yermin said:

meth didn't make him a better hitter.  The * are for those who cheated throughout most their career.

Then why did he pound meth throughout his entire career and introduce it to all of baseball?

[Chicago White Sox]

1 hour ago, ron883 said:

Agreed. It's ridiculous that people act like they know who did and didn't do steroids. Many of the "clean" guys may have been roiding their asses off, and we just didn't know. 

Why punish anyone for crimes since some people may have gotten away them?

[Kyyle23]

12 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said:

Why punish anyone for crimes since some people may have gotten away them?

Is it a crime if the game didn't police it or care about it

[flavum]

 

[Balta1701]

4 hours ago, flavum said:

 

This ballot makes me feel worse about Rolen and Buehrle.

At least I just learned that Rolen and LaRussa didn’t like each other at all.

[southsider2k5]

 

[greasywheels121]

17 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

 

This is why he's likeable and I agree that he shouldn't be a HOFer, the same way Baines shouldn't be a HOFer.

[Texsox]

On 12/29/2020 at 11:28 AM, flavum said:

I don't mind Clemens and Bonds getting in because they were among the best of the best of all time while the entire game was on steroids. But anyone who thinks Sammy Sosa could put up those numbers without taking hardcore steroids is baseball stupid. A vote for Sosa is a bad vote-period.  And the Schilling stuff is laughable. He's a douche, but the K to walk ratio and postseason career speak for themselves.  

Entire game was on steroids? What years do you think Frank Thomas was on steroids? 

Are you thinking 99% of the players? 95%? 

[ron883]

On 12/29/2020 at 2:12 PM, flavum said:

 

What a fucking joke of a ballot. Pathetic.

[flavum]

11 minutes ago, Texsox said:

Entire game was on steroids? What years do you think Frank Thomas was on steroids? 

Are you thinking 99% of the players? 95%? 

I meant the majority, but Frank did benefit from steroids in his counting stats because he was scoring runs and knocking in runs with players around him that were juiced. To me, 1998-2002, MLB was just off the rails with hardcore steroids. 

[pmb0928]

Wow, only allowed 59 stolen bases. Crazy stat.

[Texsox]

5 minutes ago, flavum said:

I meant the majority, but Frank did benefit from steroids in his counting stats because he was scoring runs and knocking in runs with players around him that were juiced. To me, 1998-2002, MLB was just off the rails with hardcore steroids. 

Really, over 50%? I'm looking at the 2000 Sox roster and I can't imagine that half of those guys were using steroids. I know Canseco said 80% but it seemed like he was selling books and pushing numbers for publicity. I think what you had was 15 to 20% at the most but they are the players that were setting records and winning awards. I think it's a slap in the face to players like Frank who worked hard and didn't cheat for guys like Sosa and Bonds to even be considered. 

The Hall of Fame is a museum that celebrates the game of baseball. It's a tourist attraction. I wouldn't mind a display that discusses the steroid era and talks about those players and their achievements. I just don't think a plaque or display equal to the non steroid using players is appropriate in a place that should be about what makes the game great, not the negative.

We're planning on returning there this summer, I hope they are open. 

[Quin]

If anyone wants to make a case for Buehrle, it's that he has a case for being the best defensive pitcher whoever lived. 

That's the argument.

[Chicago White Sox]

2 minutes ago, Quin said:

If anyone wants to make a case for Buehrle, it's that he has a case for being the best defensive pitcher whoever lived. 

That's the argument.

This play alone should get him in into the HoF

 

Edited December 31, 2020 by Chicago White Sox

[wegner]

5 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said:

This play alone should get him in into the HoF

 

That was one of those plays that I feel honored to have watched "live" and not as a highlight...I was speechless when I saw it...like Wise's catch in the perfect game....and Robert's unbelievable grab in the 9th inning this past season...Mercy!! Indeed!!!

[Balta1701]

7 hours ago, greasywheels121 said:

This is why he's likeable and I agree that he shouldn't be a HOFer, the same way Baines shouldn't be a HOFer.

JMO - Mark! Has a better case than Baines. He’s in the “not always but sometimes” range in career WAR. He wasn’t ever the best pitcher in the game, but he might well be one of the last high inning starters ever. He has a no hitter, perfect game, and is tied for the most reliable closer in World Series history.

He is not a first ballot guy, but let’s wait a few years. There are 4 current starters who are likely in - Verlander, Kershaw, Greinke, and Scherzer. Mark! Has more career bWAR than Hamels, meaning if we start talking about anyone other than those 4 making it we have to have a discussion about the differences between bWAR and fWAR. In bWAR, Buehrle looks right there. 

I want to see how his numbers look 5 or 7 years from now as the game evolves. If Sale stops around 45 and we don’t see anyone else get into the 60 range as a starter any time soon, what does that say about Mark! If he’s the last of a generation?

[MiddleCoastBias]

Ryan Thibodaux https://twitter.com/NotMrTibbs?s=09 actually tracks all of the public ballots and shares them in spreadsheet that calculates percentages, etc. Buehrle is currently tracking just over 10% (I honestly thought he would get less than 5% this year and drop off).

For those that want to keep up to date on what the numbers look like as more ballots come in, his sheet is found here

- https://onedrive.live.com/view.aspx?resid=F2E5D8FC5199DFAF!31002&ithint=file,xlsx&authkey=!AKnsRGrHzGEkOuw

 

[MiddleCoastBias]

12 hours ago, MiddleCoastBias said:

Ryan Thibodaux https://twitter.com/NotMrTibbs?s=09 actually tracks all of the public ballots and shares them in spreadsheet that calculates percentages, etc. Buehrle is currently tracking just over 10% (I honestly thought he would get less than 5% this year and drop off).

For those that want to keep up to date on what the numbers look like as more ballots come in, his sheet is found here

- https://onedrive.live.com/view.aspx?resid=F2E5D8FC5199DFAF!31002&ithint=file,xlsx&authkey=!AKnsRGrHzGEkOuw

 

Another view of the tracker that has Buehrle staying on the ballot for next year with reasonable confidence. 

 

 

Edited December 31, 2020 by MiddleCoastBias

[South Side Hit Men]

18 minutes ago, MiddleCoastBias said:

Another view of the tracker that has Buehrle staying on the ballot for next year with reasonable confidence. 

 

 

Thanks for posting. My two selections have a shot to bridge the gap. Would have added Schilling to my ballot after further reflection, including the rationale  Jay Jaffe wrote he used to omit him. Whether you agree or disagree with Schillings politics or statements, it should have no bearing on your hall of fame vote.

I’m truly agnostic when it comes to Rolen or Jones, would have to study it more if I had a ballot. I would likely keep it no, but wouldn’t be necessarily concerned if either made it.

Can’t argue Jones out with all of the weak to horrendous CF inductees currently in (Averill, Carey, Combs, Duffy, Puckett, Roush, Waner, Wilson). Warner is worse than Baines.

Nice to see Vizquel’s support dropping, not necessarily because he is a thug, but because he is did not have a hall of fame career.

https://www.baseball-reference.com/leaders/jaws_SS.shtml