The Kids Can Play Posted July 4, 2021 Share Posted July 4, 2021 On 6/29/2021 at 1:57 PM, ChiSox59 said: He is, in fact, a rock solid starter. What he was done in comparison to the other Sox starters is pretty much irrelevant. As is his 1 playoff start in a Sox uni. I provided you the state - Dallas has been more than adequate as a ChiSox. You just don't like his stuff, which is what it is. He isn't a hard thrower and hasn't been for some time. If Keuchel is a teams 5th starter, you're doing quite well. Hmmm, how did that rock solid starter do against the pathetic Tigers yesterday? Oh yeah, horrible! IP 4, H 7 ER 7 BB 3 K 2 HR 1 ERA raised to 4.48. Unless Kuechel does some major turnaround, he will be not be in the starting rotation during the playoffs. Plus he better be traded by next year, because his 18 mil in '22 and 20 mil in '23 is a total absurd waste of money. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted July 4, 2021 Share Posted July 4, 2021 1 minute ago, The Kids Can Play said: Hmmm, how did that rock solid starter do against the pathetic Tigers yesterday? Oh yeah, horrible! IP 4, H 7 ER 7 BB 3 K 2 HR 1 ERA raised to 4.48. Unless Kuechel does some major turnaround, he will be not be in the starting rotation during the playoffs. Plus he better be traded by next year, because his 18 mil in '22 and 20 mil in '23 is a total absurd waste of money. HE SUCKS! TRADE HIM, lol! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Kids Can Play Posted July 4, 2021 Share Posted July 4, 2021 3 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said: HE SUCKS! TRADE HIM, lol! I'm not sure why you add sarcasm here! Oh yeah, you like justifying mediocrity, or actually, which is the real reason whenever you debate me, you love being a contrarian. He does suck! If you are suggesting he is a good pitcher, than obviously you are not that knowledgeable in what constitutes a good starting pitcher. As I said, its fine for now, but he won't be in the starting rotation come playoffs. This is what you get for 18 million! Nice! LOL 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted July 4, 2021 Share Posted July 4, 2021 6 minutes ago, The Kids Can Play said: I'm not sure why you add sarcasm here! Oh yeah, you like justifying mediocrity, or actually, which is the real reason whenever you debate me, you love being a contrarian. He does suck! If you are suggesting he is a good pitcher, than obviously you are not that knowledgeable in what constitutes a good starting pitcher. As I said, its fine for now, but he won't be in the starting rotation come playoffs. This is what you get for 18 million! Nice! LOL Because it is silly. If a guy sucks and makes 18 million a year, who is trading for him? It's not contrarian, it's common sense. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Kids Can Play Posted July 4, 2021 Share Posted July 4, 2021 3 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said: Because it is silly. If a guy sucks and makes 18 million a year, who is trading for him? It's not contrarian, it's common sense. There is always a team desperate for a pitcher. A team that thinks they have the right coaches to change and correct him. I don't even care what the Sox get back for him. It can be a few low high A or AA prospects. To keep defending this guy is just plain dumb, while being a contrarian lacking common sense. His pitching style is obsolete by today's high velocity pitchers. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChiSox59 Posted July 4, 2021 Share Posted July 4, 2021 35 minutes ago, The Kids Can Play said: Hmmm, how did that rock solid starter do against the pathetic Tigers yesterday? Oh yeah, horrible! IP 4, H 7 ER 7 BB 3 K 2 HR 1 ERA raised to 4.48. Unless Kuechel does some major turnaround, he will be not be in the starting rotation during the playoffs. Plus he better be traded by next year, because his 18 mil in '22 and 20 mil in '23 is a total absurd waste of money. Ahhh yes. One start decides all. He’s not getting traded. Sorry buddy. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Kids Can Play Posted July 4, 2021 Share Posted July 4, 2021 Just now, ChiSox59 said: Ahhh yes. One start decides all. He’s not getting traded. Sorry buddy. Incorrect! More than one bad start, but obviously you don't check the stats. It's a damn good thing it's not your choice who the Sox trade. I'm sorry buddy, but Hahn won't be consulting you on the future trades of the Sox! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted July 4, 2021 Share Posted July 4, 2021 31 minutes ago, The Kids Can Play said: There is always a team desperate for a pitcher. A team that thinks they have the right coaches to change and correct him. I don't even care what the Sox get back for him. It can be a few low high A or AA prospects. To keep defending this guy is just plain dumb, while being a contrarian lacking common sense. His pitching style is obsolete by today's high velocity pitchers. Boy, there is a whole lot of made up stuff in this post. I never made an qualitative statement about Dallas in this series of posts. You are the only one who has. To recap: Horrible Waste of money Obsolete Mediocre Don't trust him Little margin for error Not enough velocity If you are right, there is no GM in baseball lining up for the right to give him $18 million next year, and potentially his vesting option. You can't have it both ways. In the era of covid balance sheet, there isn't a GM alive lining up to take on what you described AND pay him that kind of money. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beck72 Posted July 5, 2021 Share Posted July 5, 2021 On 6/27/2021 at 8:37 AM, Jnooch said: Would anyone be in favor of trading Carlos Rodon for a meaningful LH bat? I dont see Carlos signing next year with the Sox. Boros is his agent and with Carlos health history I dont see this org signing him to a 5 year deal. It would have to be to a contender because Arizona, Pittsburgh, and other non contenders are looking for young prospects. Could Michael Kopech step in to his spot? No. We have to ride out the year with Rodon. Even if he slips a bit, replacing him now with someone besides Kopech is going to hurt the team. I think the Sox have a decent chance to resign Rodon. Not a bunch of teams will trust that he’s completely healthy and invest a long term deal on him. if the Sox go deep in the playoffs, it will tax the rotation for 2022. Someone is bound to get hurt or be ineffective next year due to the workload. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KipWellsFan Posted July 5, 2021 Share Posted July 5, 2021 On 7/4/2021 at 11:39 AM, The Kids Can Play said: There is always a team desperate for a pitcher. A team that thinks they have the right coaches to change and correct him. I don't even care what the Sox get back for him. It can be a few low high A or AA prospects. To keep defending this guy is just plain dumb, while being a contrarian lacking common sense. His pitching style is obsolete by today's high velocity pitchers. Ummm, if he "sucks" a team isn't going to pick up much of his salary, which would kind of defeat the purpose of trading him. Presumably we want to keep a mediocre starter and pay him, rather than trade a mediocre starter and still pay him. And again, if it is so obvious to GMs that "he sucks" we won't get much talent in return. I also don't accept your theory that he stinks or wouldn't have playoff value. He was 5th in Cy Young voting last year, and I'm willing to give him a bit more leeway this year before writing him off. He got bad luck in the most recent start that you reference with Billy Hamilton's botched play, and bad ball/strike calls on Ryan Burr with Keuchel's inherited runners. I don't think there is a ton separating Giolito, Cease, and Keuchel at the moment. They will probably all have ups and downs. 1 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted July 6, 2021 Share Posted July 6, 2021 An interesting name Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Sacamano Posted July 6, 2021 Share Posted July 6, 2021 16 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said: An interesting name As a platoon bat. Too bad he wasn’t left-handed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Kids Can Play Posted July 7, 2021 Share Posted July 7, 2021 On 7/4/2021 at 11:12 AM, southsider2k5 said: Boy, there is a whole lot of made up stuff in this post. I never made an qualitative statement about Dallas in this series of posts. You are the only one who has. To recap: Horrible Waste of money Obsolete Mediocre Don't trust him Little margin for error Not enough velocity If you are right, there is no GM in baseball lining up for the right to give him $18 million next year, and potentially his vesting option. You can't have it both ways. In the era of covid balance sheet, there isn't a GM alive lining up to take on what you described AND pay him that kind of money. Obviously Hahn paid Kuechel the high number and his numbers were not that stellar after his Cy Young year before coming here. You are forgetting Keuchel is a lefty. There will always be a team desperate for a lefty starter. All my statements about Keuchel are all accurate. The last two, (Little margin for error & Not enough velocity) you cannot deny. If you look at all the top starters in MLB in ERA, they are all pitchers with plus 90 mph 4 seem fastballs and secondary pitches that have significantly more movement than Keuchels' pitches. If you don't see that, then obviously know very little about baseball today. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted July 7, 2021 Share Posted July 7, 2021 7 minutes ago, The Kids Can Play said: Obviously Hahn paid Kuechel the high number and his numbers were not that stellar after his Cy Young year before coming here. You are forgetting Keuchel is a lefty. There will always be a team desperate for a lefty starter. All my statements about Keuchel are all accurate. The last two, (Little margin for error & Not enough velocity) you cannot deny. If you look at all the top starters in MLB in ERA, they are all pitchers with plus 90 mph 4 seem fastballs and secondary pitches that have significantly more movement than Keuchels' pitches. If you don't see that, then obviously know very little about baseball today. So no GM is going to want to trade for him if all that is true. Seems simple enough. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Kids Can Play Posted July 7, 2021 Share Posted July 7, 2021 Just now, southsider2k5 said: So no GM is going to want to trade for him if all that is true. Seems simple enough. You really do love being a contrarian. He is a lefty. Every single year several left handed pitchers sign big contracts. A mediocre lefty who has displayed the occasional good year is always worth more money than they deserve. Hahn paid him 18 million, so why cant another GM pay him the same or similar? He could be possibly productive for a different team with a totally different set of factors, such as a better fielding team behind him, a larger ballpark that is more pitcher friendly. The bottom line is if you sign Lynn and Rodon, there is no way he is in a 5 man rotation next year that moves out Cease or Giolito. Not to mention Kopech is going to be in the rotation next year, as well as perhaps Crochet according to Hahn. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted July 7, 2021 Share Posted July 7, 2021 7 minutes ago, The Kids Can Play said: You really do love being a contrarian. He is a lefty. Every single year several left handed pitchers sign big contracts. A mediocre lefty who has displayed the occasional good year is always worth more money than they deserve. Hahn paid him 18 million, so why cant another GM pay him the same or similar? He could be possibly productive for a different team with a totally different set of factors, such as a better fielding team behind him, a larger ballpark that is more pitcher friendly. The bottom line is if you sign Lynn and Rodon, there is no way he is in a 5 man rotation next year that moves out Cease or Giolito. Not to mention Kopech is going to be in the rotation next year, as well as perhaps Crochet according to Hahn. Again, it is common sense. You can't have a guy who is everything you describe, yet still claim that GMs want him at $18 million a season. That doesn't add up. Either he is a decent enough pitcher to demand trade value even with an $18 million price tag, or he is awful, and no one else is going to want him. You can't have it both ways. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vulture Posted July 7, 2021 Share Posted July 7, 2021 3 hours ago, southsider2k5 said: Again, it is common sense. You can't have a guy who is everything you describe, yet still claim that GMs want him at $18 million a season. That doesn't add up. Either he is a decent enough pitcher to demand trade value even with an $18 million price tag, or he is awful, and no one else is going to want him. You can't have it both ways. Why not? The Padres did. Too bad Sox can’t trade with themselves Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Kids Can Play Posted July 8, 2021 Share Posted July 8, 2021 20 hours ago, southsider2k5 said: Again, it is common sense. You can't have a guy who is everything you describe, yet still claim that GMs want him at $18 million a season. That doesn't add up. Either he is a decent enough pitcher to demand trade value even with an $18 million price tag, or he is awful, and no one else is going to want him. You can't have it both ways. I love how you cherry pick my replies. You failed to respond to the fact that if Rodon and Lynn are resigned for next year, plus with Kopech and Crochet as possible starters, along with Cease and Giolito, how do you justify Keuchel to find a spot in next year's rotation? Oh that's right, the history of your arguments is for you pick only the points you think you have a shot on and avoid the ones you have no logical argument for. Again, I told you in my last reply that Keuchel's game would be better suited for a different team and ballpark. Of the 5 starters he has the highest hits per 9 innings and the lowest K's per 9 innings. This is not a good formula in a hitter's ballpark like ours, with a poor fielding team that Keuchel relies heavily on for his type of pitches. For example, the Los Angeles Dodgers-Dodger stadium could be a good spot for him. I'm not saying they will trade him to LAD, or that LAD would want him. Although with Trevor Bauer on indefinite leave and Clayton Kershaw put on the 10 Day DL, with forearm inflammation, it wouldn't be so crazy for LAD to trade for Keuchel. Anyway, my point here is, by most rankings Dodger stadium has been considered one of the best parks to pitch in and usually has one of the lowest ERA's of all 30 stadiums. If Keuchel is on a team like LAD and with an offense like they have, where he will get plenty of runs, then his pitching style might survive. LAD for example could afford the 18 million. In our ballpark, you need pitchers like the ones we have with Cease. Giolito, Rodon and Lynn who all have power arms and have extremely high K/9 stats. When they get in a bad inning with runners on, at least you know they can get K's to get out of the inning potentially. Keuchel is not that type of pitcher and never will be. Btw, in baseball you can have a pitcher like Kuechel being left handed and just average and find someone to pay him the money. Hahn did it. You have to understand the Sox standards and expectations are higher now and when we are going for a WS this year and the next several years, we need the best possible rotation. If Lynn and Rodon get resigned for next year, with Crochet and Kopech are future starters, there is no room for Kuechel here anymore. It wouldn't be impossible for Hahn to trade Kuechel and even eat a portion of the contract. GM's do that occasionally. Hahn just proved he doesn't care if he has to eat millions, as he just DFA Eaton and that cost the Sox 8 million. He paid Eaton the guaranteed 7 million and ate the 1 million buyout for next year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted July 8, 2021 Share Posted July 8, 2021 23 minutes ago, The Kids Can Play said: I love how you cherry pick my replies. You failed to respond to the fact that if Rodon and Lynn are resigned for next year, plus with Kopech and Crochet as possible starters, along with Cease and Giolito, how do you justify Keuchel to find a spot in next year's rotation? Oh that's right, the history of your arguments is for you pick only the points you think you have a shot on and avoid the ones you have no logical argument for. Again, I told you in my last reply that Keuchel's game would be better suited for a different team and ballpark. Of the 5 starters he has the highest hits per 9 innings and the lowest K's per 9 innings. This is not a good formula in a hitter's ballpark like ours, with a poor fielding team that Keuchel relies heavily on for his type of pitches. For example, the Los Angeles Dodgers-Dodger stadium could be a good spot for him. I'm not saying they will trade him to LAD, or that LAD would want him. Although with Trevor Bauer on indefinite leave and Clayton Kershaw put on the 10 Day DL, with forearm inflammation, it wouldn't be so crazy for LAD to trade for Keuchel. Anyway, my point here is, by most rankings Dodger stadium has been considered one of the best parks to pitch in and usually has one of the lowest ERA's of all 30 stadiums. If Keuchel is on a team like LAD and with an offense like they have, where he will get plenty of runs, then his pitching style might survive. LAD for example could afford the 18 million. In our ballpark, you need pitchers like the ones we have with Cease. Giolito, Rodon and Lynn who all have power arms and have extremely high K/9 stats. When they get in a bad inning with runners on, at least you know they can get K's to get out of the inning potentially. Keuchel is not that type of pitcher and never will be. Btw, in baseball you can have a pitcher like Kuechel being left handed and just average and find someone to pay him the money. Hahn did it. You have to understand the Sox standards and expectations are higher now and when we are going for a WS this year and the next several years, we need the best possible rotation. If Lynn and Rodon get resigned for next year, with Crochet and Kopech are future starters, there is no room for Kuechel here anymore. It wouldn't be impossible for Hahn to trade Kuechel and even eat a portion of the contract. GM's do that occasionally. Hahn just proved he doesn't care if he has to eat millions, as he just DFA Eaton and that cost the Sox 8 million. He paid Eaton the guaranteed 7 million and ate the 1 million buyout for next year. None of these things matter to the qualitative argument you are making to Dallas's ability, and are just distractions to your contradictory underlying argument that somehow someone can be so terrible, yet valuable to the rest of baseball who seemingly can't see his terribleness. If he is good enough to be someone that another team would be $18 million a season for, he isn't nearly as bad as you make him out to be. Even in this post you have now moved the bar to him being "average" instead of all of the other stuff you were sticking to before. Either that or you realize that he can't be awful AND get some interest. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Kids Can Play Posted July 8, 2021 Share Posted July 8, 2021 11 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said: None of these things matter to the qualitative argument you are making to Dallas's ability, and are just distractions to your contradictory underlying argument that somehow someone can be so terrible, yet valuable to the rest of baseball who seemingly can't see his terribleness. If he is good enough to be someone that another team would be $18 million a season for, he isn't nearly as bad as you make him out to be. Even in this post you have now moved the bar to him being "average" instead of all of the other stuff you were sticking to before. Either that or you realize that he can't be awful AND get some interest. Wow, you really don't get it. All my arguments with you make total sense, but I can't help this conversation for you since this is too deep and complicated for your cognitive reasoning abilities. Again Keuchel is a left handed pitcher which always get good money even when they aren't that good. It's based on at some point they had success. Some teams always think they can capture lighting in a bottle. He is crap and I won't take that back. He is the worst starter with the worst stats on our team. There are teams that can spend money for him and that is a fact. I just gave you one good example dude. The Dodgers have a ballpark for his pitching style. They have the money as they spend and make money than any other team. Plus you never explained to us, how Hahn can justify keeping Kuechel if he re-signs Rodon and Lynn, along with Kopech and Crochet are starters next year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted July 8, 2021 Share Posted July 8, 2021 2 minutes ago, The Kids Can Play said: Wow, you really don't get it. All my arguments with you make total sense, but I can't help this conversation for you since this is too deep and complicated for your cognitive reasoning abilities. Again Keuchel is a left handed pitcher which always get good money even when they aren't that good. It's based on at some point they had success. Some teams always think they can capture lighting in a bottle. He is crap and I won't take that back. He is the worst starter with the worst stats on our team. There are teams that can spend money for him and that is a fact. I just gave you one good example dude. The Dodgers have a ballpark for his pitching style. They have the money as they spend and make money than any other team. Plus you never explained to us, how Hahn can justify keeping Kuechel if he re-signs Rodon and Lynn, along with Kopech and Crochet are starters next year. I get it, but your argument is terrible, flawed with distractsions that have nothing to do with the main thrust of my problem of your argument. You are trying to hide the fact that you make the case for Dallas being a terrible pitcher with all of these other things that don't apply to that fact. The other hand waves of who could replace him don't change that. Carlos Rodon being a better pitcher than Dallas doesn't change what Dallas's skill level is, nor does what Kopech, Crochet, or anyone else does. That is a non sequitor. Their ability to pitch has zero effect on the pitching talent of Dallas Kuechel, and his trade value. The ONLY thing that matter for his trade value is how good HE is, and not who we have to replace him. It would also be nice if you went back to the point that I made weeks ago that Dallas's numbers were better than league average, which invalidates most of your points on him, and also makes the case why someone WOULD be interested in trading for him. Either he is good enough to be traded, even with his $18 million salary, or he is as awful as you say he is, and no one will want him. No one is 2021 is looking to add an awful pitcher who has a large contract. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Kids Can Play Posted July 8, 2021 Share Posted July 8, 2021 2 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said: I get it, but your argument is terrible, flawed with distractsions that have nothing to do with the main thrust of my problem of your argument. You are trying to hide the fact that you make the case for Dallas being a terrible pitcher with all of these other things that don't apply to that fact. The other hand waves of who could replace him don't change that. Carlos Rodon being a better pitcher than Dallas doesn't change what Dallas's skill level is, nor does what Kopech, Crochet, or anyone else does. That is a non sequitor. Their ability to pitch has zero effect on the pitching talent of Dallas Kuechel, and his trade value. The ONLY thing that matter for his trade value is how good HE is, and not who we have to replace him. It would also be nice if you went back to the point that I made weeks ago that Dallas's numbers were better than league average, which invalidates most of your points on him, and also makes the case why someone WOULD be interested in trading for him. Either he is good enough to be traded, even with his $18 million salary, or he is as awful as you say he is, and no one will want him. No one is 2021 is looking to add an awful pitcher who has a large contract. All my arguments make total sense, it's your remarks that are lame and weak. This argument is not about comparing Keuchel to the league average. We are comparing him to the Sox starters. His stats are the worst of the staff. This is not an opinion, but facts. The Sox have the best starting rotation in baseball, again a fact based on stats. Once again, as I am trying to inform you, why another team would want Keuchel. We have enough pitching talent without him. He might be ok compared to league average, but the Sox are not league average, which is another fact, This is why we don't need him and another team could use him, because their pitching is probably weaker or injured severely. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted July 8, 2021 Share Posted July 8, 2021 Just now, The Kids Can Play said: All my arguments make total sense, it's your remarks that are lame and weak. This argument is not about comparing Keuchel to the league average. We are comparing him to the Sox starters. His stats are the worst of the staff. This is not an opinion, but facts. The Sox have the best starting rotation in baseball, again a fact based on stats. Once again, as I am trying to inform you, why another team would want Keuchel. We have enough pitching talent without him. He might be ok compared to league average, but the Sox are not league average, which is another fact, This is why we don't need him and another team could use him, because their pitching is probably weaker or injured severely. So in other words, he isn't as bad as you have been saying. Well done. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Kids Can Play Posted July 8, 2021 Share Posted July 8, 2021 Just now, southsider2k5 said: So in other words, he isn't as bad as you have been saying. Well done. I didn't say that at all. He is bad for us and isn't worth it for the Sox, but some other weaker team in pitching might need him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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