Levine links Sox to Conforto

[Sarava]

1 minute ago, poppysox said:

I think everyone agrees that Conforto makes sense if we didn't already have Vaughn/Sheets/Engel.  Since we only have the resource to pick one high-priced RF or 2B.  It's like saying would you prefer seeing Vaughn/Sheets or Garcia play every day.

Bad defensive teams usually don't win the World Series. If you saddle our pitching staff with Eloy in left and Vaughn in right, that's giving a lot to opposing offenses.

And heck,  if that's the approach, then you may as well just sign Castellanos for RF and load up the offense as much as possible.

[Dick Allen]

The Sox of the mid 90s used to play rent a RF really well. Ellis Burks, DJ, Mike Devereaux, Danny Tartabull, Dave Matinez were all better than average, then came Maggs, then Dye. I guess the odds were bound to catch up with them. 

It looks like with Story not willing to change positions, the high priced 2B are probably all spoken for.  I would rather they spend the cash on a 2B than RF, but would rather they spend it on a RF than pocket it. 

[poppysox]

3 minutes ago, Sarava said:

I assumed when they picked up the option that they had some offers on the table. So I had your point of view originally.

But now I'm nervous about it. Did they overplay their hand? Or did they pick up the option to save face and avoid admitting what a stupid trade it was? I'm not sure now. But I do feel confident that it's tieing up dollars that could be used elsewhere on the team, which sucks.

Rick, Ken, and Jerry work so closely that I don't buy saving face enters into the decision.  I hated the trade but understood what they were trying to do.  The Segura for Kimbrel trade possibility seemed like something possible at the time we resigned him.

[ThatBallHitDeep_WAYBack]

Conforto for 1 Year $15-$20M w/ an option makes sense.  Not going to block Cespedes and/or Colas.

[GreenSox]

Confotro was terrible last year, and the Mets, who are investing in their team, are still moving on from him.    Reasonable chance he continues to decline going forward. His career OPS is .824.  That’s fine, but it’s nothing special. And there isn’t much of a market for him, so, sure, easy enough to sign.

The higher priority is SP, and, arguably, 2B.  The Sox don’t need an ace; they need a solid 2/3 guy.  Such pitchers were available in December at reasonable prices, and the FO wasn’t ready or they didn’t bother.  Same with 2B.  Sure they can trade for one.  This FO never minds tacking on 1 or 2 extra young players to get the deal done; easy enough.

Meanwhile, Sheets showed a lot of promise from the left side.  He’d be on the first train out in one of the trades.

We’ve seen players like Conforto before; we’ve seen this FO trade for veterans (and it's the same dudes: Hahn and Haber); and we’ve seen young for old exchanges.  Generally not pretty.

[SoCalChiSox]

16 minutes ago, ThatBallHitDeep_WAYBack said:

Conforto for 1 Year $15-$20M w/ an option makes sense.  Not going to block Cespedes and/or Colas.

No way Boras will allow for 1 year plus option off a bad year. Either 1 year or long term deal no in between.

 

[Two-Gun Pete]

3 hours ago, Thad Bosley said:

You make an interesting point, but then why pick up the option?  Take the $16M and go buy something pretty on the free agent market instead.  They must have some sort of sense of Kimbrel’s value that may not be clearly obvious to us at the moment.

I think they shat their pants from the very beginning. I think they think that the rest of the industry stupidly over-values RPs as much as they do. And I think they didn't consider all the negative and positive consequences.

Unfortunately, the rest of the industry read the book (not the stupid film) "Moneyball" 15 or so years ago, and discovered that RPs aren't worth as much as the SOX think they're worth. Now, with no negotiating leverage to sell an old, expensive, and mostly-ineffective closer, they're kinda screwed.

Let's all hope for Philly's BP to have a few season-ending injuries like day 1 of ST.

2 hours ago, poppysox said:

Our GM could have not picked up his option if he viewed Kimbrel as unmovable for anything other than a bag of balls.  It seems reasonable to give a long-serving GM the benefit of the doubt that he knows the market better than anyone posting here.

Just the mere fact that they got a player they didn't need, this far into their tenures as GM/President or GM/Asst GM should remove any benefit of the doubt. 

They should have known better, and they still did it. Now, as I'd mentioned before, reverse the situation:

If some other schmucks already had an All Star at closer, and were DESPERATE to have Kimbrel's obese salary the fuck off their payroll, how eager would you be to pick up ALL $16M of an old, bad closer's contract?

And were the roles reversed, what would you want the SOX to give up to get him? A bit of salary relief? A 27 year old AAAA type? A live arm in low A with a career 4.5 era?

I'm genuinely curious.

For me, If Kimbrel were on another team's payroll, and they were desperate to have him fuck off, I'd send Adolfo or Rutherford for Kimbrel, and the other team eats $8-10M. Take it or leave it. What would you send for him?

 

All that said, I hope they can work miracles, so that a Conforto type can be signed here. We'll have to see. 

Edited February 13, 2022 by Two-Gun Pete

[Chicago White Sox]

53 minutes ago, GreenSox said:

Confotro was terrible last year, and the Mets, who are investing in their team, are still moving on from him.    Reasonable chance he continues to decline going forward. His career OPS is .824.  That’s fine, but it’s nothing special. And there isn’t much of a market for him, so, sure, easy enough to sign.

The higher priority is SP, and, arguably, 2B.  The Sox don’t need an ace; they need a solid 2/3 guy.  Such pitchers were available in December at reasonable prices, and the FO wasn’t ready or they didn’t bother.  Same with 2B.  Sure they can trade for one.  This FO never minds tacking on 1 or 2 extra young players to get the deal done; easy enough.

Meanwhile, Sheets showed a lot of promise from the left side.  He’d be on the first train out in one of the trades.

We’ve seen players like Conforto before; we’ve seen this FO trade for veterans (and it's the same dudes: Hahn and Haber); and we’ve seen young for old exchanges.  Generally not pretty.

Conforto has been one of the best hitters in all of baseball against RHP over the past half decade, so not sure we’re talking about the same player.  Also, it sounds like you are scarred for life because of Adam Dunn failing which is unfortunate.

Edited February 13, 2022 by Chicago White Sox

[poppysox]

9 minutes ago, Two-Gun Pete said:

I think they shat their pants from the very beginning. I think they think that the rest of the industry stupidly over-values RPs as much as they do. And I think they didn't consider all the negative and positive consequences.

Unfortunately, the rest of the industry read the book (not the stupid film) "Moneyball" 15 or so years ago, and discovered that RPs aren't worth as much as the SOX think they're worth. Now, with no negotiating leverage to sell an old, expensive, and mostly-ineffective closer, they're kinda screwed.

Let's all hope for Philly's BP to have a few season-ending injuries like day 1 of ST.

Just the mere fact that they got a player they didn't need, this far into their tenures as GM/President or GM/Asst GM should remove any benefit of the doubt. 

They should have know better, and they still did it. Now, as I'd mentioned before, reverse the situation:

If some other schmucks already had an All Star at closer, and were DESPERATE to have Kimbrel's obese salary the fuck off their payroll, how eager would you be to pick up ALL $16M of an old, bad closer's contract?

And were the roles reversed, what would you want the SOX to give up to get him? A bit of salary relief? A 27 year old AAAA type? A live arm in low A with a career 4.5 era?

I'm genuinely curious.

For me, If Kimbrel were on another team's payroll, and they were desperate to have him fuck off, I'd send Adolfo or Rutherford for Kimbrel, and the other team eats $8-10M. Take it or leave it. What would you send for him?

 

All that said, I hope they can work miracles, so that a Conforto type can be signed here. We'll have to see. 

I agree that I wouldn't have made the deal in the first place.  However, I always believe a guy doing this on a full-time basis with knowledgeable staff all around him has got to be better than the fan base.  We will see.

[MackowiakYakYak]

1 hour ago, GreenSox said:

Confotro was terrible last year, and the Mets, who are investing in their team, are still moving on from him.    Reasonable chance he continues to decline going forward. His career OPS is .824.  That’s fine, but it’s nothing special. And there isn’t much of a market for him, so, sure, easy enough to sign.

I agree that Conforto was bad last year, but the underlying stats show he was mostly unlucky. His k rate was above his career average and his walk rate was right around his average, so it’s not like he’s suddenly lost his eye. His issue was that his babip and iso were both at or near career lows. It seems unlikely his power can’t recover since he’s not old and it’s not like pitchers were suddenly able to take advantage of him. He was mostly doing what he should be doing but not getting the results. I’m not in love with Conforto as the perfect RF solution, but he’s the best one available and he should be solid.

[Y2Jimmy0]

2 hours ago, ThatBallHitDeep_WAYBack said:

Conforto for 1 Year $15-$20M w/ an option makes sense.  Not going to block Cespedes and/or Colas.

That sort of deal makes no sense. The White Sox won’t forfeit their 2nd rounder for one year of Conforto. Also, nobody should be counting on Cespedes or Colas for anything. Either guy would be a bonus. 

[Chicago White Sox]

2 minutes ago, Y2Jimmy0 said:

That sort of deal makes no sense. The White Sox won’t forfeit their 2nd rounder for one year of Conforto. Also, nobody should be counting on Cespedes or Colas for anything. Either guy would be a bonus. 

Yup.  And let’s be honest, I think most people would be happy if Cespedes ended up being a solid 4th OF.  As for Colas, the kid has never even played stateside.  I really like Oscar’s potential, but if you’re worried about blocking him while contending for a World Series title then you probably shouldn’t be a major league GM.

And finally, how many years do we need to go before Hahn realizes a left-handed power bat is a must for this offense?  This team consistently gets beat up against tough RHP and that’s going to be a recurring obstacle come October.  Conforto is fucking elite against RHP while not killing you defensively in RF.  Given his expected price, this is the most logical free agent target since Grandal & Wheeler.

Honestly, if Hahn can land Conforto, a solid 2B, and a quality SP prior to Opening Day then I’m moving back to Chicago cause this team is winning the World Series next year.  Get this the fuck done Hahn!

[SoxBlanco]

3 hours ago, Chicago White Sox said:

Honestly, if Hahn can land Conforto, a solid 2B, and a quality SP prior to Opening Day then I’m moving back to Chicago cause this team is winning the World Series next year.  Get this the fuck done Hahn!

A starting pitcher is what interests me the most. It would have to come via trade, right?

[Chicago White Sox]

1 minute ago, SoxBlanco said:

A starting pitcher is what interests me the most. It would have to come via trade, right?

Pretty much outside of Rodon on a cheap deal.

[ChiSox59]

1 hour ago, Chicago White Sox said:

Pretty much outside of Rodon on a cheap deal.

I think Sox at most add a vet #5 piece to compete with Keuchel. They’re not going to just acquire a mid rotation starter they don’t need so they can pay Keuchel $18M to be a mop up man. Maybe in June if he’s terrible they’ll add someone, but I really don’t think a legit SP is getting added before OD. More like 1 year scrap heap signing type. JMO of course, but with the club finances and the rotation as is, just don’t see it. 

Edited February 14, 2022 by ChiSox59

[Chicago White Sox]

23 minutes ago, ChiSox59 said:

I think Sox at most add a vet #5 piece to compete with Keuchel. They’re not going to just acquire a mid rotation starter they don’t need so they can pay Keuchel $18M to be a mop up man. Maybe in June if he’s terrible they’ll add someone, but I really don’t think a legit SP is getting added before OD. More like 1 year scrap heap signing type. JMO of course, but with the club finances and the rotation as is, just don’t see it. 

Definitely possible, but I think that would be super risky with how bad Keuchel looked last year and with Kopech on an innings limit.  I also think smart clubs find a way to roll with six starters.  Obviously paying Keuchel $18M isn’t ideal for that type of role, but neither is relying on a guy who posted a 5.23 while averaging a sub 90 MPH fastball.

[ron883]

15 hours ago, Harold's Leg Lift said:

Bruce Levine is an idiot.....but he's not an idiot when says something I want to hear!

Sounds like Soxtalk views you and old Brucey the same way

[Rey21]

Is anyone else concerned about Conforto, coming off a bad year offensively, being THE move to help fix a streaky offense? I’d much rather they sign Schwarber to DH, Engel in RF and use Vaughn/Sheets/Burger in a package for a 2B or SP. Other than being a lefty bat what does Conforto bring to the lineup? 

[ChiSox59]

4 hours ago, Rey21 said:

Is anyone else concerned about Conforto, coming off a bad year offensively, being THE move to help fix a streaky offense? I’d much rather they sign Schwarber to DH, Engel in RF and use Vaughn/Sheets/Burger in a package for a 2B or SP. Other than being a lefty bat what does Conforto bring to the lineup? 

The only reason Conforto isn’t going to be a well north of $100M player is because of his down season. He’s been one of the best hitters in the game over the last half decade and he fills a ton of team needs. You’re overthinking this. 

[Flash]

JR isn't springing $80+ on anyone. For me, the single best fit for '22 and beyond is K. Marte. Provides a ton of positional value (72 games in CF last year). Power (same # of HRs/14as Comforto in >60 fewer ABs). SH w/footspeed and immediately upgrades 2B. As much as I like Vaughn, I move him as part of a package for Marte and roll with combo platter in RF (Sheets/Engel/Leury) w/Marte also getting innings in RF and spelling Robert in CF when he isn't playing second. I don't know what the asking price will be but my guess is it starts w/Vaughn. 

[Chicago White Sox]

9 minutes ago, Flash said:

JR isn't springing $80+ on anyone. For me, the single best fit for '22 and beyond is K. Marte. Provides a ton of positional value (72 games in CF last year). Power (same # of HRs/14as Comforto in >60 fewer ABs). SH w/footspeed and immediately upgrades 2B. As much as I like Vaughn, I move him as part of a package for Marte and roll with combo platter in RF (Sheets/Engel/Leury) w/Marte also getting innings in RF and spelling Robert in CF when he isn't playing second. I don't know what the asking price will be but my guess is it starts w/Vaughn. 

Why isn’t Jerry springing $80M on anyone?  Like what does that even mean?  He basically signed Grandal for that much and offered Wheeler north of $100M.

Regardless, trading Vaughn for Marte and then going with a Sheets/Leury/Engel combo in RF doesn’t make sense at all to me.  If you’re making that trade, then you better be going all in and that RF combo would be a major liability on day 1.

[Flash]

3 hours ago, Chicago White Sox said:

 

Regardless, trading Vaughn for Marte and then going with a Sheets/Leury/Engel combo in RF doesn’t make sense at all to me.

Why isn’t Jerry springing $80M on anyone?  Like what does that even mean?  He basically signed Grandal for that much and offered Wheeler north of $100M.
I hope I'm wrong but Idon't see it...not for Comforto anyway.

 If you’re making that trade, then you better be going all in and that RF combo would be a major liability on day 1.
Yes on going all in...if not now when?    I disagree on the liability of the combo in RF. Engel and Marte are both better defenders than Comforto and there are scenarios wher you can play Engel in LF, Robert in CF and Marte in RF (just slide Leury to 2B) for arguably the best OF in MLB.

[Balta1701]

1 minute ago, Flash said:

Why isn’t Jerry springing $80M on anyone?  Like what does that even mean?  He basically signed Grandal for that much and offered Wheeler north of $100M.
I hope I'm wrong but Idon't see it...not for Comforto anyway.

 If you’re making that trade, then you better be going all in and that RF combo would be a major liability on day 1.
Yes on going all in...if not now when?    I disagree on the liability of the combo in RF. Engel and Marte are both better defenders than Comforto and there are scenarios wher you can play Engel in LF, Robert in CF and Marte in RF (just slide Leury to 2B) for arguably the best OF in MLB.

What convinced us that Engel will be prepared to play 50 games this year, let alone 100?

[ChiSox59]

2 minutes ago, Flash said:

Why isn’t Jerry springing $80M on anyone?  Like what does that even mean?  He basically signed Grandal for that much and offered Wheeler north of $100M.
I hope I'm wrong but Idon't see it...not for Comforto anyway.

 If you’re making that trade, then you better be going all in and that RF combo would be a major liability on day 1.
Yes on going all in...if not now when?    I disagree on the liability of the combo in RF. Engel and Marte are both better defenders than Comforto and there are scenarios wher you can play Engel in LF, Robert in CF and Marte in RF (just slide Leury to 2B) for arguably the best OF in MLB.

Problem with that plan is that you can't rely on Engel to be healthy.  He's proven that.  So when he gets hurt, now your RF is Leury.  And relying on Sheets to be your everyday DH would be a mistake. We go from a good amount of depth to very little when you trade Vaughn and don't sign a RF. 

[black jack]

Injuries will happen.  It’s inevitable.  Engel will get his 100+ games as a fourth outfielder if he himself, can stay healthy.

Sign Conforto, trade Burger and others not named Sheets, for a second baseman and rotate Vaughn with Abreu and Eloy.

Sheets goes down to work on his fielding.

Its ok to have depth.