Sox Acquire Reese McGuire for Zack Collins, Officially

[Balta1701]

19 minutes ago, chw42 said:

It almost seems like he just has poor hand-eye coordination. You can only teach people to be good at something if they've got the physical ability to do it. 

No offense to B>W here, just illustrating a point.

 

[Harold's Leg Lift]

37 minutes ago, EloyJenkins said:

that video breakdown is great. Collins is an organizational failure and frustrating that they never were able to even get a slight improvement out of him. 

A guy has to put in the work to get better.  Collins is a dog. Good riddance.

[Dick Allen]

4 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

Well unfortunately that’s not true at all as 2019 was the worst framing season in his career. 2020 was respectable but in a very short sample set.

https://baseballsavant.mlb.com/savant-player/james-mccann-543510?stats=statcast-r-fielding-mlb

So, if it improves, it doesn't count. It isn't true.. While you love to live om the White Sox do everything wrong platform, a guy like Narvaez was acquired from the minor league rule 5 from Tampa. Tampa must suck too, correct? They didn't teach him how to catch. 

 

[Balta1701]

7 minutes ago, Dick Allen said:

So, if it improves, it doesn't count. It isn't true.. While you love to live om the White Sox do everything wrong platform, a guy like Narvaez was acquired from the minor league rule 5 from Tampa. Tampa must suck too, correct? They didn't teach him how to catch. 

 

No, when it’s a total of 30 games in a season because of an out of control virus it doesn’t typically count as a solid sample.

For comparison, Zack Collins wasn’t a badly scored framer in his first 12 games over 2019-2020. He was quite poor when the sample got larger in 2021.

https://baseballsavant.mlb.com/savant-player/zack-collins-641470?stats=statcast-r-hitting-mlb 

[Dick Allen]

10 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

No, when it’s a total of 30 games in a season because of an out of control virus it doesn’t typically count as a solid sample.

For comparison, Zack Collins wasn’t a badly scored framer in his first 12 games over 2019-2020. He was quite poor when the sample got larger in 2021.

https://baseballsavant.mlb.com/savant-player/zack-collins-641470?stats=statcast-r-hitting-mlb 

Not much difference in the sample size you say makes Collins "quite poor" and McCann's which doesn't count because it's a positive.

[bmags]

24 minutes ago, Dick Allen said:

So, if it improves, it doesn't count. It isn't true.. While you love to live om the White Sox do everything wrong platform, a guy like Narvaez was acquired from the minor league rule 5 from Tampa. Tampa must suck too, correct? They didn't teach him how to catch. 

 

I think it's definitely true sox struggle in general with defensive coaching. Wellington castillo had his best framing seasons ever, then slipped to terrible with sox. McCann did improve, but framing is a bit noisy, but in general he was welcome because he had come with a solid defensive reputation and handled the staff as advertised. Narvaez was poor and they didn't care to change it. Collins was always going to be a challenge. 

They both don't seem to care much about defense at catcher in scouting or teaching. But you could carry that over to the failure of a number of prospects who needed work on defense and failed to convert.

The story of Flowers itself, from his words, seemed largely self taught, and they didn't care about him enough to keep it.

I think Grandal's framing even in the signing was a nice to have. They seem obssessed with getting offensive production out of catcher and seem plussed about defensive limitations if necessary.

And for tampa, they have a lot of talent they lose out of rule 5 and stuff, because they make sure they have a big system.

[Dick Allen]

1 minute ago, bmags said:

I think it's definitely true sox struggle in general with defensive coaching. Wellington castillo had his best framing seasons ever, then slipped to terrible with sox. McCann did improve, but framing is a bit noisy, but in general he was welcome because he had come with a solid defensive reputation and handled the staff as advertised. Narvaez was poor and they didn't care to change it. Collins was always going to be a challenge. 

They both don't seem to care much about defense at catcher in scouting or teaching. But you could carry that over to the failure of a number of prospects who needed work on defense and failed to convert.

The story of Flowers itself, from his words, seemed largely self taught, and they didn't care about him enough to keep it.

I think Grandal's framing even in the signing was a nice to have. They seem obssessed with getting offensive production out of catcher and seem plussed about defensive limitations if necessary.

And for tampa, they have a lot of talent they lose out of rule 5 and stuff, because they make sure they have a big system.

I think pinning that on the coaching is a stretch. Players are different, just like in anything else. Some parents have kids who are uber successful, and other kids who are dangers to society. Are they bad parents or good parents. Teachers have bad and good students in every class. Are they bad teachers or good teachers? The Sox have developed good defensive players. The problem is, they usually don't bring those types in. They have to be developed, and you see the success stories. You don't pay attention to the players who remain bad with the glove. People whined about Marcus Semien getting better defensively. That took a while, but the same guys teaching him in the White Sox system told Yolmer, who was pretty good with the glove. Moncada was pretty bad with the glove with the White Sox at first and at Boston. He's pretty good now. Maybe I missed them, but I never have seen kudos fo White Sox coaching for that. I seem to remember the disaster being predicted when it came out the Sox were moving him to 3B. 

 

[bmags]

Just now, Dick Allen said:

I think pinning that on the coaching is a stretch. Players are different, just like in anything else. Some parents have kids who are uber successful, and other kids who are dangers to society. Are they bad parents or good parents. Teachers have bad and good students in every class. Are they bad teachers or good teachers? The Sox have developed good defensive players. The problem is, they usually don't bring those types in. They have to be developed, and you see the success stories. You don't pay attention to the players who remain bad with the glove. People whined about Marcus Semien getting better defensively. That took a while, but the same guys teaching him in the White Sox system told Yolmer, who was pretty good with the glove. Moncada was pretty bad with the glove with the White Sox at first and at Boston. He's pretty good now. Maybe I missed them, but I never have seen kudos fo White Sox coaching for that. I seem to remember the disaster being predicted when it came out the Sox were moving him to 3B. 

 

I believe that since 2015 or so player development is a big advantage and the sox agree because they have invested quite a bit to improve it, but unfortunately so did every other team. Not every player improves because of an approach or mechanical change. But if you have a player under control in your org that could have been changed for the better and you didn't do it that is a huge failed opportunity. 

Actually not everything works all the time is true but it's not a reason to believe that nothing ever works any of the time.

[gogosox1959]

throwing:

 

[ShoeLessRob]

2 hours ago, VAfan said:

Give the guy a break.  I'm sure everyone making a snarky comment here has done it many times, though probably not in a parking lot.

The Sox got better with this trade.  

Que? There’s a big difference between stroking your shaft at home vs. in your car at a public parking lot. He obviously gets off on doing it in public or “getting caught”. I dont wanna speculate on who he was jerkin it too.

[wrathofhahn]

This is a very good trade.

Collins can't play he strikes out way to often and he is awful defensively. I have zero faith in him ever amounting to anything. McGuire still has upside because he's been able to hit at a competent level at times in both the minor leagues and MLB level. All he has to do is hit around .700 and he should be an excellent backup he's also under control till 2026. Essentially we traded someone who probably was going to be DFA'ed at some point and has had a - WAR the last three years for a defensive catcher with some upside.

Been really impressed with the last two trades.

[Texsox]

4 hours ago, ShoeLessRob said:

 I dont wanna speculate on who he was jerkin it too.

I hope back then he was thinking about coming to Chicago and being a Sox.

[JoeC]

20 minutes ago, Texsox said:

I hope back then he was thinking about coming to Chicago and being a Sox.

Tube Sox?

I'll show myself out.

[SCCWS]

2 hours ago, wrathofhahn said:

This is a very good trade.

Collins can't play he strikes out way to often and he is awful defensively. I have zero faith in him ever amounting to anything. McGuire still has upside because he's been able to hit at a competent level at times in both the minor leagues and MLB level. All he has to do is hit around .700 and he should be an excellent backup he's also under control till 2026. Essentially we traded someone who probably was going to be DFA'ed at some point and has had a - WAR the last three years for a defensive catcher with some upside.

Been really impressed with the last two trades.

Actually "Essentially we traded someone who probably was going to be DFA'ed at some point" for someone who was actually DFA'ed last April. 

[southsider2k5]

5 minutes ago, SCCWS said:

Actually "Essentially we traded someone who probably was going to be DFA'ed at some point" for someone who was actually DFA'ed last April. 

We traded one dfa for another. 

[Look at Ray Ray Run]

 

[Texsox]

20 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

We traded one dfa for another. 

Yes I like our new one better.

[ChiliIrishHammock24]

18 hours ago, bmags said:

Was wondering when you would show up. Finally after all these years the Sox get one of your catching targets.

I expect Ketel Marte to eventually join the Sox in about 4 years. 😑😑

[caulfield12]

11 hours ago, southsider2k5 said:

We traded one dfa for another. 

Borchard/Thornton.

We got Marte from the Pirates as well... was out of options like Adolfo. 

[caulfield12]

16 hours ago, bmags said:

I believe that since 2015 or so player development is a big advantage and the sox agree because they have invested quite a bit to improve it, but unfortunately so did every other team. Not every player improves because of an approach or mechanical change. But if you have a player under control in your org that could have been changed for the better and you didn't do it that is a huge failed opportunity. 

Actually not everything works all the time is true but it's not a reason to believe that nothing ever works any of the time.

Anderson at SS and Vaughn quickly adapting to play LF are two more examples.  Abreu improved at first base over time to playable.  Engel always had the athletic tools but came a long ways from a raw Louisville project. 

Edited April 5, 2022 by caulfield12

[Texsox]

When is McGuire Bobblehand Day? 

[ShoeLessRob]

12 minutes ago, Texsox said:

When is McGuire Bobblehand Day? 

6/9/22

[caulfield12]

2 hours ago, Texsox said:

When is McGuire Bobblehand Day? 

Should be paired with the Thanos Infinity Gauntlet sponsored by Waxelene.

[southsideirish71]

I love this trade.  Zac was always a square peg back there.  I admire him for making it to the bigs as a catcher, but his receiving was never good enough back there.  This is what our pitching staff needs more than another bat.

[wrathofhahn]

14 hours ago, SCCWS said:

Actually "Essentially we traded someone who probably was going to be DFA'ed at some point" for someone who was actually DFA'ed last April. 

I mean fangraphs had him worth 1.4 WAR last year in a limited backup role. I don't really get the move. I understand they needed to make a move eventually since Mareno is almost ready but why make the trade now and why take someone like Collins whose only value is his option.

I don't get it for the jays but I really like the move for the sox. I just wish we went out and made a similar move at 2B rather than paying Josh Harrison 5m

Edited April 5, 2022 by wrathofhahn