Menechino is movable

[JoeC]

5 minutes ago, almagest said:

Coaches don't get in the box to hit, players do. You don't think every single player in this lineup knows how they're going to be pitched? Of COURSE they do. It's on them to not swing at garbage. There's nothing a coach can do or say short of benching the entire roster to stop all of them from swinging at trash.

Of course it's up to the players not to swing.

It is, however, a team effort to make sure hitters know how pitchers (and teams) are going to approach you as a hitter.

Right now it looks like guys are clueless at the plate. THAT is a team effort.

[soulfly]

Maybe some of the guys on this team aren't nearly as good as we thought they would be.  Shocking, I know.

[almagest]

Just now, JoeC said:

Of course it's up to the players not to swing.

It is, however, a team effort to make sure hitters know how pitchers (and teams) are going to approach you as a hitter.

Right now it looks like guys are clueless at the plate. THAT is a team effort.

I guarantee they already know. Even teams who are terrible at advance scouting have a pretty good idea. It's absolutely up to the players to perform. In your scenario, player talent takes a backseat to preparation and that's just not the case.

[JoeC]

6 minutes ago, almagest said:

I guarantee they already know. Even teams who are terrible at advance scouting have a pretty good idea. It's absolutely up to the players to perform. In your scenario, player talent takes a backseat to preparation and that's just not the case.

If it were 1 or 2 guys, sure. Blame the individual players.

Of course the players need to perform. They're the ones stepping up to the plate... butt if it's 75% of the lineup basically each and every game, that's systematic. That tells me that if there's a game plan or strategy, it's clearly outdated.

[ptatc]

1 hour ago, PorkChopExpress said:

This makes me wonder whether the constantly changing lineups is directly affecting the hitting negatively.  Other than TA, the players haven't really had consistent "roles" day in and day out, and have had different players hitting in front of and behind them in the order, which I would think leads to inconsistent approaches/gameplans day in and day out, which I could easily see as negatively affecting their hitting.     

Not that I totally disagree, but the offense was pretty good last year and the lineup shuffle was the same.

[almagest]

Just now, JoeC said:

If it were 1 or 2 guys, sure. Blame the individual players.

Of course the players need to perform. They're the ones stepping up to the plate... butt if it's 75% of the lineup basically each and every game, that's systematic. That tells me that if there's a game plan or strategy, it's clearly outdated.

Game plans don't say "swing at nearly everything out of the zone". That's what almost this entire lineup is doing.  They don't take walks. It literally does not matter what the game plan is if you don't walk and swing at trash.

[JoeC]

2 minutes ago, almagest said:

Game plans don't say "swing at nearly everything out of the zone". That's what almost this entire lineup is doing.  They don't take walks. It literally does not matter what the game plan is if you don't walk and swing at trash.

The game plan absolutely matters if the hitters are told to look for one thing and consistently see the opposite.

[almagest]

4 minutes ago, JoeC said:

The game plan absolutely matters if the hitters are told to look for one thing and consistently see the opposite.

They're told to swing at everything because they'll all be strikes but actually they are balls well out of the zone?

[JoeC]

1 minute ago, almagest said:

They're told to swing at everything because they'll all be strikes but actually they are balls well out of the zone?

No, it's more "if this guy throws 2 fastballs in at the hands, expect the next pitch to be a slider diving away from you."

You know - things that scouting reports would say

[SpringfieldFan]

Granted its a hot take but I swear I would fine Abreu every time he two hops a low outside pitch to short.

[almagest]

4 minutes ago, JoeC said:

No, it's more "if this guy throws 2 fastballs in at the hands, expect the next pitch to be a slider diving away from you."

You know - things that scouting reports would say

Lol this is one of the most effective pitching patterns for a reason. All of these players know this. They've been seeing this pattern since high school. If they need a scouting report that says "pitchers are going to do what they've always done to you" then they shouldn't be in pro baseball.

Edited May 19, 2022 by almagest

[JoeC]

1 minute ago, almagest said:

Lol this is one of the most effective pitching patterns for a reason. All of these players know this. They've been seeing this pattern since high school. If they need a scouting report that says "pitchers are going to do what they've always done to you" then they shouldn't be in pro baseball.

Yeah - you think the pitchers follow literally that same template?

Pitchers make adjustments. It's clear our batters collectively aren't adjusting. That collective lack of adjustment is on both the players and coaches, and to pretend like the coaches aren't responsible at doesn't make sense to me.

[almagest]

4 minutes ago, JoeC said:

Yeah - you think the pitchers follow literally that same template?

Pitchers make adjustments. It's clear our batters collectively aren't adjusting. That collective lack of adjustment is on both the players and coaches, and to pretend like the coaches aren't responsible at doesn't make sense to me.

It's your example. If you don't think it's a good one then don't use it.

[JoeC]

Just now, almagest said:

It's your example. If you don't think it's a good one then don't use it.

Would you like me to dig up deeper scouting reports on pitchers so I can give a 100% accurate example? I was hoping you could extrapolate the type of issue I was trying to describe based on a simplified example.

Anyways, looks like we're at an impasse, so good luck with the rest of the thread

[southsider2k5]

7 minutes ago, JoeC said:

Yeah - you think the pitchers follow literally that same template?

Pitchers make adjustments. It's clear our batters collectively aren't adjusting. That collective lack of adjustment is on both the players and coaches, and to pretend like the coaches aren't responsible at doesn't make sense to me.

So if it is in the scouting reports, the coaches are telling them how to attack and the hitters aren't doing it, it is on the coaches.  I mean sure.

[almagest]

Just now, JoeC said:

Would you like me to dig up deeper scouting reports on pitchers so I can give a 100% accurate example? I was hoping you could extrapolate the type of issue I was trying to describe based on a simplified example.

Anyways, looks like we're at an impasse, so good luck with the rest of the thread

There's no extrapolation necessary, you're just trying to backpedal from a bad example. If you had a tangible example instead of just being pissed off about how shitty this team is (and rightfully so), you would've presented it already.

[JoeC]

1 minute ago, southsider2k5 said:

So if it is in the scouting reports, the coaches are telling them how to attack and the hitters aren't doing it, it is on the coaches.  I mean sure.

Yeah, and obviously there's no way for us to know what the scouting reports are saying.

My whole point is that given what appears to be a systematic inability to have good consistently at-bats, that to me is indicative of bad intel or bad coaching.

[southsider2k5]

1 minute ago, JoeC said:

Yeah, and obviously there's no way for us to know what the scouting reports are saying.

My whole point is that given what appears to be a systematic inability to have good consistently at-bats, that to me is indicative of bad intel or bad coaching.

Or players who refuse to adjust? 

[JoeC]

2 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

Or players who refuse to adjust? 

Sure - certainly a possibility as well, especially with younger guys (I'm less inclined to believe it for guys like Abreu and Grandal who've presumably had to adjust repeatedly)

[pcq]

Most of what see is poor execution. Perhaps by light-headed hitters. Their rep for a while now has been to hack away at pitches and not be patient. This is not a secret.

[reiks12]

2 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

Or players who refuse to adjust? 

If the players are refusing to adjust then what does that say about the coaches/intel? 

[southsider2k5]

Just now, reiks12 said:

If the players are refusing to adjust then what does that say about the coaches/intel? 

That the manager has lost this team.

[ptatc]

1 hour ago, southsider2k5 said:

That the manager has lost this team.

Isn't this more the hitting coach? I would think he is the one who goes over the specific pitchers and their tendencies.

[southsider2k5]

19 minutes ago, ptatc said:

Isn't this more the hitting coach? I would think he is the one who goes over the specific pitchers and their tendencies.

If it were just the hitting, sure.  But the relief pitching and defense have also been a dumpster fire this year.

[wegner]

Apparently Hahn told the players Mene is gone unless he sees a good effort like 12+ hits this afternoon....so sorry Sox fans.