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Fire Rick Hahn


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27 minutes ago, hi8is said:

Is it even that high?

I was being kind.  In FA, 15-20% feels about right.  And not the big moves, but the almost completely under the radar ones…players literally anyone in baseball could have had.  Over $8-10 million per year, disaster.  Even Hendriks has barely been worth his deal, and a trade today would simply net 85-90% salary relief.

Narvaez (Rule 5)

McCann

Rodon

Cueto

Andrus

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It is extremely funny to me that Rick Hahn looks at the success of the astros and thinks “ their success is due to their superior managers” and has zero interest in implementing the rest. Their system was too reliant on holding people accountable to the goals and direction set by their front office.

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If this team played to their potential. The potential most everyone here thought was possible. A division title and a first round playoff win. Would there be a fire Hahn thread?

Was the lack of success Tony and the friends and family coaching staff he put together or most everyone misjudged the talent on the roster? 

I'm all in on the fire everyone bandwagon. I'm just fascinated by Hahn's situation. 

Usually I judge the GM on opening day and what happens after that on managing and coaching. Using that formula Hahn isn't looking like someone that should be chased with pitchforks and torches. 

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13 minutes ago, Texsox said:

If this team played to their potential. The potential most everyone here thought was possible. A division title and a first round playoff win. Would there be a fire Hahn thread?

Was the lack of success Tony and the friends and family coaching staff he put together or most everyone misjudged the talent on the roster? 

I'm all in on the fire everyone bandwagon. I'm just fascinated by Hahn's situation. 

Usually I judge the GM on opening day and what happens after that on managing and coaching. Using that formula Hahn isn't looking like someone that should be chased with pitchforks and torches. 

This thread wasn’t created until July 23. There was a general disappointment with the offseason, well deserved. But people also gave him more than half the season just in case: note that this also appears at the trade deadline, where it was rational to worry that he’d foul things up more if he did anything. 

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7 minutes ago, Texsox said:

If this team played to their potential. The potential most everyone here thought was possible. A division title and a first round playoff win. Would there be a fire Hahn thread?

Was the lack of success Tony and the friends and family coaching staff he put together or most everyone misjudged the talent on the roster? 

I'm all in on the fire everyone bandwagon. I'm just fascinated by Hahn's situation. 

Usually I judge the GM on opening day and what happens after that on managing and coaching. Using that formula Hahn isn't looking like someone that should be chased with pitchforks and torches. 

No one is arguing the players didn’t underperform.  People want Hahn gone because he has failed to take a talented core and transform it into a serious championship contender.  Last off-season was one of the worst executed plans I can remember in my 38 years on this earth.  Rick Hahn had a team coming off a 93 win season but who was destroyed by a clearly stronger Astros team in the playoffs and failed to make any impactful moves.  Instead, he let one of his best players leave for nothing and then spent $40M+ on a variety of role players.  The issues with this roster were very clear coming into the season (Hahn even acknowledged most of them) and he still did nothing to address then.  Honestly, the time for excuses is gone.  If Rick isn’t going to swing for the fences during our competitive window, then he’s already admitted failure and he has no one to blame but himself for the lack of depth and shitty farm system.  It’s a time for a change even if he’s not the sole reason for our struggles.

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26 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said:

No one is arguing the players didn’t underperform.  People want Hahn gone because he has failed to take a talented core and transform it into a serious championship contender.  Last off-season was one of the worst executed plans I can remember in my 38 years on this earth.  Rick Hahn had a team coming off a 93 win season but who was destroyed by a clearly stronger Astros team in the playoffs and failed to make any impactful moves.  Instead, he let one of his best players leave for nothing and then spent $40M+ on a variety of role players.  The issues with this roster were very clear coming into the season (Hahn even acknowledged most of them) and he still did nothing to address then.  Honestly, the time for excuses is gone.  If Rick isn’t going to swing for the fences during our competitive window, then he’s already admitted failure and he has no one to blame but himself for the lack of depth and shitty farm system.  It’s a time for a change even if he’s not the sole reason for our struggles.

This

The players underperformed no doubt.  The manager and coaching sucked.  The GM signing Leury to a 3 year deal and failing to address RF or add impactful LH power failed too.  The decision makers failed.  But the players aren’t signing or trading themselves or putting out a stupid shitty lineup every day.  There needs to be accountability on the field, in the dugout & clubhouse, and for those putting the team together.  There is enough blame to go around for everyone.  

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1 hour ago, Tnetennba said:

This

The players underperformed no doubt.  The manager and coaching sucked.  The GM signing Leury to a 3 year deal and failing to address RF or add impactful LH power failed too.  The decision makers failed.  But the players aren’t signing or trading themselves or putting out a stupid shitty lineup every day.  There needs to be accountability on the field, in the dugout & clubhouse, and for those putting the team together.  There is enough blame to go around for everyone.  

Not to mention not addressing 2B since Hahn's #3 overall draft pick bust was dumped for Kimbrel.

Hahn has had four years to fix the hole in RF after Avisail Garcia left in 2018 and has failed miserably.

  • 2019 - Ryan Cordell -0.6 bWAR
  • 2020 - Nomar Mazara - 0.1 bWAR
  • 2021 - Adam Eaton 0.0 bWAR
  • 2022 - Gavin Sheets -0.4 bWAR

 

 

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How many GMs in sports have been able to replicate their success in a 2nd job? 

How many GMs in sports have built two contenders with the same team? 

The list is very small. 

Edited by Jack Parkman
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11 minutes ago, Jack Parkman said:

How many GMs in sports have been able to replicate their success in a 2nd job? 

How many GMs in sports have built two contenders with the same team? 

The list is very small. 

Huh?

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Hahn needs to go, but the problems go beyond him. Since the Reinsdorf-Einhorn group bought the team, there has been a familiar pattern. The team is losing, they get a group of good young players, and add some veterans. They get good, maybe even win a division. Then things go sour. Some injuries, a bad trade or two, some players age. Back to losing. With the exception of 2005, no World Series. Except for 2005, no playoff series won. 

The franchise needs to do some real self-examination, but I doubt that will happen. Okay, so LaRussa leaves, then what? Right now, they have two pitchers with knee problems. Is it truly back to losing?

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1 hour ago, Balta1701 said:

Huh?

I'm arguing that there is no skill in GMing and scouting.  It's all dumb luck. 

I bet computers would be better at drafting and player acquisition than humans are. 

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36 minutes ago, Jack Parkman said:

I'm arguing that there is no skill in GMing and scouting.  It's all dumb luck. 

I bet computers would be better at drafting and player acquisition than humans are. 

"All you really need to know about the Rays is that they have been slotted in the top 10 of MLB Pipeline’s farm system rankings for a record 12 consecutive years, and this is the sixth time in those 12 years that they are headed to the postseason. That is a really difficult trick to pull off for any franchise, let alone one with the revenue challenges the Rays face, relative to their AL East peers."

Anthony Castrovince MLB.com

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Would anyone give Hahn some slack if it turns out deals he had in place were vetoed by JR or Tony? It seems Tony was hired without his involvement. 

He's going to be back. I don't want to spend *my* winter bitching about the organization. So I'm just going to hope this was all Tony and JR's mess and there is a fix. 

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Just now, Texsox said:

Would anyone give Hahn some slack if it turns out deals he had in place were vetoed by JR or Tony? It seems Tony was hired without his involvement. 

He's going to be back. I don't want to spend *my* winter bitching about the organization. So I'm just going to hope this was all Tony and JR's mess and there is a fix. 

A lot of the moves recently definitely had TLR's involvement. Just look at how many guys we've acquired recently that used to play for LaRussa - Lynn, Kelly, Pollock, and Lamb.

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23 minutes ago, Texsox said:

Would anyone give Hahn some slack if it turns out deals he had in place were vetoed by JR or Tony? It seems Tony was hired without his involvement. 

He's going to be back. I don't want to spend *my* winter bitching about the organization. So I'm just going to hope this was all Tony and JR's mess and there is a fix. 

There is plenty to be optimistic about going forward. I am taking a step back from following baseball in two days, but I'm far more optimistic today then I was on October 26, 2020. Still haven't changed my opinion on Hahn, but we are at least two years closer to a new owner and new FO, and Hahn may in fact not be asked back (or may also want to pursue other interests like Kenny) after his rumored contract end in 2023. 

I realize Jerry will likely never sell, but that doesn't mean he will be involved in the day to day until he passes or becomes incapacitated. Perhaps he plans to step back, or hand off the day to day operations of the club after next season as a few have posted this season. 

The new manager could and hopefully will improve team discipline, fundamentals, defensive shifting, provide analytical and logic based decision making, hold players accountable, bring in better coaches, prioritize defense in new player acquisitions and lineup construction. And the best part for Jerry is this won't cost significant money to implement (many aspects are free).

Still facing an uphill battle with the lack of quality scouting or player development, and also Hahn's inability to consistently acquire quality players during his 8 years of Ventura and Renteria. Tony did play a heavy role in at least some of the acquisitions, but players like Keuchel, Parrot, Madrigal, Kimbrel and others were all his "best" ideas, not to mention his other deals during the "non tanking" Ventura era. Think a fresh FO after next season could make the fundamental changes required to bring the organization kicking and screaming into the 21st century.

Edited by South Side Hit Men
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6 hours ago, Jack Parkman said:

I'm arguing that there is no skill in GMing and scouting.  It's all dumb luck. 

I bet computers would be better at drafting and player acquisition than humans are. 

No one is even in engaging with you because of how stupid this take is, but if you really feel this way, then you can never be critical of any decision any GM, specifically with the White Sox, make. No GM has any skill, everyone is just playing with lottery tickets so if it just boils down to luck, no one can be better than anyone else. Just keep that in mind the next time you want to rip Hahn. 

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34 minutes ago, Tony said:

No one is even in engaging with you because of how stupid this take is, but if you really feel this way, then you can never be critical of any decision any GM, specifically with the White Sox, make. No GM has any skill, everyone is just playing with lottery tickets so if it just boils down to luck, no one can be better than anyone else. Just keep that in mind the next time you want to rip Hahn. 

I'm not 100% bought in, but I'm at least considering the possibility that the best GMs are the ones that have the best computers and actually do what the computers tell them to. 

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47 minutes ago, South Side Hit Men said:

There is plenty to be optimistic about going forward. I am taking a step back from following baseball in two days, but I'm far more optimistic today then I was on October 26, 2020. Still haven't changed my opinion on Hahn, but we are at least two years closer to a new owner and new FO, and Hahn may in fact not be asked back (or may also want to pursue other interests like Kenny) after his rumored contract end in 2023. 

I realize Jerry will likely never sell, but that doesn't mean he will be involved in the day to day until he passes or becomes incapacitated. Perhaps he plans to step back, or hand off the day to day operations of the club after next season as a few have posted this season. 

The new manager could and hopefully will improve team discipline, fundamentals, defensive shifting, provide analytical and logic based decision making, hold players accountable, bring in better coaches, prioritize defense in new player acquisitions and lineup construction. And the best part for Jerry is this won't cost significant money to implement (many aspects are free).

Still facing an uphill battle with the lack of quality scouting or player development, and also Hahn's inability to consistently acquire quality players during his 8 years of Ventura and Renteria. Tony did play a heavy role in at least some of the acquisitions, but players like Keuchel, Parrot, Madrigal, Kimbrel and others were all his "best" ideas, not to mention his other deals during the "non tanking" Ventura era. Think a fresh FO after next season could make the fundamental changes required to bring the organization kicking and screaming into the 21st century.

Not with so many question marks surrounding Luis Robert and Yoan Moncada.

 

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Signalling a philosophy shift starting in 2024 with Anderson Cease Kopech so close to their expiration dates...and the lack of depth in the farm system, a rebuild seems all but inevitable.

They ALSO really need to pinpoint a young catcher to build around, that's one position that is consistently overlooked.

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I think it's fair to say I've turned into one of Hahn's harshest critics, deservingly so, but in a lot of ways I think it would be a mistake to let Hahn go this off-season. 

As mentioned numerous times, the core is mostly coming back in 2023, and not by choice in a lot of cases. You aren't trading Grandal. You aren't trading Moncada. Would be a mistake to trade Robert, probably Eloy as well if you're looking to compete in 2023. There also isn't going to be a lot of budget to play with. Good amount of bad money on this roster. 

Yes, there are very few GM jobs out there and they are always in demand...but any GM that takes this on right now is coming into a risky situation. It's possible for as much that broke bad this year breaks "right" in 2023, but that seems unlikely. If goes similar to 2022...the future starts to look REAL bleak for a while on the South Side. Not sure who's taking on right now, I sort of think it makes sense for Hahn to see it through at least this year. 

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