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The White Sox cannot be fixed by next season


VAfan
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27 minutes ago, flavum said:

Hahn probably deserves to be gone, but as long as he gets to hire his own manager and new coaching staff this offseason, I’ll let him go down with the ship over the next couple years. Don’t get me wrong, he has made mistakes, but he’s also had his hands tied in some cases too.

You mean he gets to hire more coaches like Menechino and Katz? Awesome. 

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5 minutes ago, flavum said:

Some probably still like Katz, but point taken. 

I've seen worse coaching, but blah. How many pitchers exceeded their goals or outperformed expectations this year? Cease, Lambert, maybe Lopez, Cueto, and? 

Who didn't? Giolito, Lynn, Kopech, Keuchel, Hendriks, Graveman, Kelly, Bummer, Crochet, Ruiz, Foster, Diekman, Crick, Banks, Severino. Yeah some of them have no talent, but yeesh. 

And I'm going to be angry about the bullpen usage on Tuesday for weeks. 

So yeah, I won't miss him either. 

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11 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

I've seen worse coaching, but blah. How many pitchers exceeded their goals or outperformed expectations this year? Cease, Lambert, maybe Lopez, Cueto, and? 

Who didn't? Giolito, Lynn, Kopech, Keuchel, Hendriks, Graveman, Kelly, Bummer, Crochet, Ruiz, Foster, Diekman, Crick, Banks, Severino. Yeah some of them have no talent, but yeesh. 

And I'm going to be angry about the bullpen usage on Tuesday for weeks. 

So yeah, I won't miss him either. 

To be fair, a lot of these guys had circumstances around them that I'm not sure any other pitching coach could have helped. 

Kopech - First full season as a starter in the big. Looks like he ran out of steam. Solid otherwise. 

Keuchel - Released by two other teams. He was just finished. 

Lynn - bad knee and came in to season hurt.  Had to work his way into shape in season. 

Bummer - injured but has been fairly decent when playing.

Crochet - TJS, was inevitable. Not sure how Katz prevents that. 

The rest of the relievers? Probably shouldn't be on the big league roster to begin with unless it's mop up duty or desperation. Definitely not to rely on in any large capacity. 

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1 hour ago, Tnetennba said:

Just gonna leave this here.  Will they even try to fix it?

IIRC, all three are signed through 2023 (unless they have been extended). 

This is actually worse than the status quo. Tony can ruin the White Sox working from home for many years. He wouldn't physically be able to survive the same length of time in a managerial role.

Hahn will continue making shitty trades and FAs signings. The organization will still have minimal to zero scouting, professional development. 

Perhaps the only chance of actual change is damaging information coming out regarding Brian Ball's discrimination lawsuit against the Sox, and/or Tony's employees discrimination lawsuit against Tony's Animal Foundation. Slim odds on either front, as both would likely agree to large payoffs before allowing information to become public.

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Tony will be the first transitioning director of player procurement.

First fix priority is a lefty slugger who can play the field somewheres along with Oscar. I don't see the Moncada trade thread going anywhere. Gavin Sheets is our alt lefty power guy. Not much else happening due to budget issues. The bullpen vets stealing money is a bit of a downer.

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11 minutes ago, pcq said:

Tony will be the first transitioning director of player procurement.

First fix priority is a lefty slugger who can play the field somewheres along with Oscar. I don't see the Moncada trade thread going anywhere. Gavin Sheets is our alt lefty power guy. Not much else happening due to budget issues. The bullpen vets stealing money is a bit of a downer.

I understand the need for LH balance and for finding an actual OF, but I'm also looking at a pitching staff that was dramatically outperformed by the best staffs in the league and that is losing Cueto, and thinking that this team can't compete without an upgrade there as well. 

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Let me jump back in my own topic to break it down a bit further.

CAN'T STAY HEALTHY

Batters

  • C - Grandal
  • SS - Anderson
  • 3B - Moncada
  • CF - Robert
  • LF/DH - Jimenez
  • Burger (AAA/Majors)
  • Mendick 

Pitchers

  • SP - Kopech
  • SP - Lynn
  • RP - Bummer
  • RP - Foster
  • RP - Velasquez
  • RP - Kelly

APPEARED ON IL IN 2022 

  • LF/CF - Pollock
  • LF/RF/1B/DH Vaughn
  • CF - Engel
  • RP - Hendriks

CAN'T HIT LEFT HANDED (or hit RIGHT HANDERS)

  • Moncada
  • Grandal
  • Pollock
  • Most of the rest of the right handers

CAN'T FIELD

  • Vaughn (OF)
  • Sheets (OF)
  • Jimenez (Anywhere)
  • Anderson (SS)
  • Grandal (C) -- can't hold baserunners
  • Zavala (C) -- is he better this year?  He was bad last year.

HAS AN ALBATROSS CONTRACT

  • 3B - Moncada
  • C - Grandal (for 2023)
  • LF - Pollock (player option)

IS BELOW LEAGUE AVERAGE

  • SP - Giolito
  • SP/RP - Velasquez
  • RP - Ruiz
  • RP - Kelly
  • RP - Diekman
  • 2B - Harrison
  • LF - Pollock
  • 3B - Moncada
  • C - Grandal
  • CF - Engel
  • 2B - Gonzalez
  • Util - Garcia

The ONLY players who are above league average and who play every time they are called on are:

  • Jose Abreu, who is a free agent
  • Dylan Cease
  • Johnny Cueto, who is also a free agent
  • Davis Martin (barely above with 106 ERA+)
  • Kendall Graveman
  • Reynaldo Lopez
  • Jimmy Lambert

Not sure you can build your team around 7 guys, 2 of whom are free agents.  

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There are so many things that impact an organization many that aren't seen. 

Just read a story in Sports Illustrated on the Mets and this caught my eye:

"When the Mets returned from a 10 game West Coast road trip in June a gift was waiting for them: a pitching machine that can replicate any pitcher's exact delivery and repertoire. The device costs in the low six figures annually for a three year license. The team had already expanded the batting cage, offered bat fittings, began measuring players' grip strength and installed devices in the weight room to track players explosiveness and to identify when they need to rest."

"The front office increased to 57 people in the spring from 32 in 2020 before the pandemic. It includes 20 analytical staffers."

I bring this up simply because I've been told that when it comes to things like keeping players healthy, nutrition, sleep schedules et al the White Sox "play checkers while other teams play chess..."  

 

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I think if there is some accountability from the front office down to the fake tough guy manager, a few of these guys would perform a bit better, and maybe stay a little healthier. But they need to catch the ball better, that will help the pitchers, and go back to hitting homers. That too will help the pitchers. They need some left handed hitting, They have the same issues they had 1 year ago, plus a couple of more, and less money to throw at the problem. So, the current team showed you they cannot make the moves necessary to get it done. It's time to try someone else.

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Hahn has been the wrong one for the job ever since the Keppinger trade, another guy who just didn't want to play baseball for the Sox, much like Pollock and LaRoche and Cesar Hernandez/Kimbrel.

 

I think the year that really defined Hahn was the Melky Cabrera/Robertson/Beckham/Bonifacio/can't remember the random junkball catcher (the equivalent of Jorge Fabregas)...that offseason was CLASSIC Hahn at his best/worst.

Let's not forget Zach Duke, the failures of Beckham/Viciedo overhanging the beginning of Hahn and the Jeff Samardzija trade.

That whopper (trade for Shark and then TRYING to resign him but failing) would have gotten HALF the GM's in baseball fired ALONE during that 2014-15 cycle...that eventually led to Frazier as the big ad, the clubhouse implosion (Sale/Drake LaRoche, Ventura not even wanting to be there) and then a little discussed trade with names like Big Game James Shields and Erik Johnson involved.

 

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1 minute ago, caulfield12 said:

Hahn has been the wrong one for the job ever since the Keppinger trade, another guy who just didn't want to play baseball for the Sox, much like Pollock and LaRoche and Cesar Hernandez/Kimbrel.

 

I think the year that really defined Hahn was the Melky Cabrera/LaRoche/Robertson/Beckham/Bonifacio/can't remember the random junkball catcher (the equivalent of Jorge Fabregas)...that offseason was CLASSIC Hahn at his best/worst.

Let's not forget Zach Duke, the failures of Beckham/Viciedo overhanging the beginning of Hahn and the Jeff Samardzija trade.

That whopper (trade for Shark and then TRYING to resign him but failing) would have gotten HALF the GM's in baseball fired ALONE during that 2014-15 cycle...that eventually led to Todd Frazier as the big addition, the clubhouse implosion (Sale/Drake LaRoche, Ventura not even wanting to be there) and then a little discussed trade with names like Big Game James Shields and Erik Johnson involved.

 

 

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2 hours ago, caulfield12 said:

Hahn has been the wrong one for the job ever since the Keppinger trade, another guy who just didn't want to play baseball for the Sox, much like Pollock and LaRoche and Cesar Hernandez/Kimbrel.

 

I think the year that really defined Hahn was the Melky Cabrera/Robertson/Beckham/Bonifacio/can't remember the random junkball catcher (the equivalent of Jorge Fabregas)...that offseason was CLASSIC Hahn at his best/worst.

Let's not forget Zach Duke, the failures of Beckham/Viciedo overhanging the beginning of Hahn and the Jeff Samardzija trade.

That whopper (trade for Shark and then TRYING to resign him but failing) would have gotten HALF the GM's in baseball fired ALONE during that 2014-15 cycle...that eventually led to Frazier as the big ad, the clubhouse implosion (Sale/Drake LaRoche, Ventura not even wanting to be there) and then a little discussed trade with names like Big Game James Shields and Erik Johnson involved.

 


Was that the year they targeted a star named Berry but accidentally got some other Berry, or something like that?

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3 hours ago, VAfan said:

Let me jump back in my own topic to break it down a bit further.

CAN'T STAY HEALTHY

Batters

  • C - Grandal
  • SS - Anderson
  • 3B - Moncada
  • CF - Robert
  • LF/DH - Jimenez
  • Burger (AAA/Majors)
  • Mendick 

Pitchers

  • SP - Kopech
  • SP - Lynn
  • RP - Bummer
  • RP - Foster
  • RP - Velasquez
  • RP - Kelly

APPEARED ON IL IN 2022 

  • LF/CF - Pollock
  • LF/RF/1B/DH Vaughn
  • CF - Engel
  • RP - Hendriks

CAN'T HIT LEFT HANDED (or hit RIGHT HANDERS)

  • Moncada
  • Grandal
  • Pollock
  • Most of the rest of the right handers

CAN'T FIELD

  • Vaughn (OF)
  • Sheets (OF)
  • Jimenez (Anywhere)
  • Anderson (SS)
  • Grandal (C) -- can't hold baserunners
  • Zavala (C) -- is he better this year?  He was bad last year.

HAS AN ALBATROSS CONTRACT

  • 3B - Moncada
  • C - Grandal (for 2023)
  • LF - Pollock (player option)

IS BELOW LEAGUE AVERAGE

  • SP - Giolito
  • SP/RP - Velasquez
  • RP - Ruiz
  • RP - Kelly
  • RP - Diekman
  • 2B - Harrison
  • LF - Pollock
  • 3B - Moncada
  • C - Grandal
  • CF - Engel
  • 2B - Gonzalez
  • Util - Garcia

The ONLY players who are above league average and who play every time they are called on are:

  • Jose Abreu, who is a free agent
  • Dylan Cease
  • Johnny Cueto, who is also a free agent
  • Davis Martin (barely above with 106 ERA+)
  • Kendall Graveman
  • Reynaldo Lopez
  • Jimmy Lambert

Not sure you can build your team around 7 guys, 2 of whom are free agents.  

SoxTalk 2022 Post of the Year!

10 minutes ago, SpringfieldFan said:


Was that the year they targeted a star named Berry but accidentally got some other Berry, or something like that?

Can’t fault Kenny for targeting Halle.

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