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The White Sox cannot be fixed by next season


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14 minutes ago, Bob Sacamano said:

Forgot who did this, but who was the poster that created an Excel file with the 2022 roster and their salaries? I think you were able to add in moves and salaries and sort of build your own roster for next year. If anyone has it saved, can someone share it? Big thanks in advance.

@bmagsI reluctantly tag you

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15 minutes ago, Bob Sacamano said:

Forgot who did this, but who was the poster that created an Excel file with the 2022 roster and their salaries? I think you were able to add in moves and salaries and sort of build your own roster for next year. If anyone has it saved, can someone share it? Big thanks in advance.

Pretty sure I still have it let me dig thru my google sheet hell

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7 hours ago, Rounding_Third said:

Its extremely unlikely that the White Sox can/will beat out the Guardians for the division for at least the next 5 years. 

The gap between the two orgs is growing larger every day.

The Indians still have awful ownership and I do believe Franconas contract is up. He will prob be back in 23 but he’s not gonna manage forever. The Indians are a team that believes and is playing really well atm but I don’t think they’re going to be some unbeatable juggernaut moving forward. 

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1 minute ago, ChiSox59 said:

The Indians still have awful ownership and I do believe Franconas contract is up. He will prob be back in 23 but he’s not gonna manage forever. The Indians are a team that believes and is playing really well atm but I don’t think they’re going to be some unbeatable juggernaut moving forward. 

f*** it, we should hire Francona, like we should have 10 years ago.

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9 minutes ago, Dick Allen said:

The White Sox can be fixed next year, but they won't be fixed if the same people are doing the fixing.

There is already some talk about giving Cairo the manager's job, and, if that happens, that is just another indication the Sox won't be fixed. The organization should do an extensive search for a new manager not just hand the job to a convenient man just because he's already connected to the team. There has to be some self-examination.  But that would mean people would have to admit they have made mistakes, and I don't see that happening. Right now, this FO just doesn't have credibility.  They are too busy blaming fans.  The Rebuild is a failure.

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22 minutes ago, Highland said:

There is already some talk about giving Cairo the manager's job, and, if that happens, that is just another indication the Sox won't be fixed. The organization should do an extensive search for a new manager not just hand the job to a convenient man just because he's already connected to the team. There has to be some self-examination.  But that would mean people would have to admit they have made mistakes, and I don't see that happening. Right now, this FO just doesn't have credibility.  They are too busy blaming fans.  The Rebuild is a failure.

For anyone who thought that Cairo was a magical solution I give you the last 3 games.

Robert played 1 time and was still not physically able to play. The bullpen usage on Tuesday was straight up bizarre and almost certainly cost the game. The defense early in games was still comical. The offensive preparation was hilariously bad - how do you go into the biggest series of the year and take 1 walk in 3 games? And in general, Cleveland was far more motivated and prepared even though they were tired from a 5 games in 4 days series.

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1 hour ago, Highland said:

There is already some talk about giving Cairo the manager's job, and, if that happens, that is just another indication the Sox won't be fixed. The organization should do an extensive search for a new manager not just hand the job to a convenient man just because he's already connected to the team. There has to be some self-examination.  But that would mean people would have to admit they have made mistakes, and I don't see that happening. Right now, this FO just doesn't have credibility.  They are too busy blaming fans.  The Rebuild is a failure.

I've been hearing that from people for over a year now. That's part of the reason Cairo joined the staff, that he was "next in line" after TLR.

If he truly is the right guy, that's fine.

But it wouldn't hurt to conduct a thorough actual managerial search with interested candidates not automatically connected to "the family."

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On 9/18/2022 at 5:08 PM, VAfan said:

Regardless of how the end of this season goes -- fangraphs still gives us a 15% chance of making the playoffs -- many of us have started thinking about next year.  I know it's a bit premature, but it's on my mind, so here goes.  

The White Sox cannot be fixed by next year.  Let's look at the challenge player by player.  I'll start by going around the diamond.  This is written after 146 games.

1.  Yasmani Grandal.  C, 1B, DH.

2022.  88 games, only 55 as a starting catcher.    67 OPS+, -1 WAR.  Only a .505 OPS as a lefty, .818 as a righty.  
2021.   90 games, 78 as a catcher.  155 OPS+. 3.7 WAR.  .909 OPS as a lefty, 1.031 OPS as a righty. 
Contract -- 1 year left at $18,250,000.
Evaluation:  Grandal went from being the best hitter on the team to nearly the worst.   But he was still injured for a significant stretch of the season and caught fewer than half of the games.  His contract makes him untradeable, but he's also completely unreliable.  Plus, he hits worse as a lefty when the Sox are desperate for lefties.  

2. Yoan Moncada. 3B. 

2022.  90 games.  78 OPS+.  .569 OPS as a lefty.  .856 OPS as a righty.  
2021.  144 games.  116 OPS+.  .817 OPS as lefty.  .700 OPS as a righty.
Contract -- 2 more years at $17.8M, $24.8M.  Club option in 3rd year for $25M.  
Evaluation -- his OPS+ has been under 100 in 2 of the last 3 years.  He seems to be hurt a lot, and he has been atrocious this year against right handed pitching.  Like with Grandal, when the Sox are desperate for lefty power, Moncada comes up short.  Can you trade him?  Off this year, no.  Off last year, probably.  But the Sox paid for 2019 breakout year and he hasn't come close since.  Like Grandal, he's not a reliable player.

3. Tim Anderson.  SS.

2022.  79 games.  108 OPS+.  All-Star.
2021.  123 games.  118 OPS+
Contract -- Club options for $12.5M next year and and $14M in 2 years. 
Evaluation -- One of the main leaders of the team, he's never healthy for a full season.  Since 2019 he's played in 123, 49 (of 60), 123, and 79 games.   He made the All-Star team this year, but it was his worst OPS+ since 2018.  He has great speed, but with regular leg injuries, you can't afford to run him.  Given his shaky health, it's hard to see the Sox giving him a big contract after his next 2 seasons run their course.  And you need a backup SS to cover at least 40 games.  

4.  Second base.  

The Sox have trotted out a lot of 2B over the last 2 years.  
2022.  Harrison 81 games, Garcia 46 games, Gonzalez 18 games, Mendick 6 games.
2021.  Hernandez 53 games, Madrigal 53 games, Garcia 36 games, Mendick 28 games.
Hernandez and Madrigal are gone, Sox have a $5.5M option on Harrison next year,  is a free agent, Garcia has 2 more years at $5.5M each, Mendick has 4 years of arbitration, and Gonzalez is under 5 more years of control.  
Evaluation -- Garcia has an albatross of a contract.  Sox cannot trade him, so they need to eat $11M to be rid of him and his 42 OPS+.  Harrison, Gonzalez and Mendick could cover 2B, but they are all right handed and don't begin to address the lefty power shortage the Sox have.  Kolten Wong looks like the best lefty free agent 2B, but he's 32 and declining.  Adam Frazier has been subpar for San Diego and Seattle and is not an answer.  

5.  Jose Abreu. 1B.

2022. 144 games. 137 OPS+
2021. 152 games.  124 OPS+
Contract.  Was just under $20M, but he's a free agent next year at 36.
Evaluation -- The ONLY Sox player who comes to work every day.  He's the oldest regular, but has played 20 more games than AJ Pollock, 23 more than Andrew Vaughn, 48 more than Luis Robert, 54 more than Moncada, 65 more than Tim Anderson, and 73 more then Eloy Jimenez.   

This is the biggest problem with the White Sox -- they have only ONE position player who they can count on to play every day, and he's the oldest regular on the team and is a free agent.  

I'm going to end my analysis right here because Abreu tells the whole story.

1.  Most Sox regulars cannot be relied on to stay A) healthy, and B) hit according to their expected hitting norms.  

2.  The Sox are built around Grandal, Moncada, Anderson, Robert, Jimenez, Abreu, and Vaughn.  The best and most reliable of those players is a 1B/DH and a free agent.  The first 5 guys are regularly injured and otherwise unable to match their hitting norms.  If you bring back Abreu, you are still left with Jimenez, Vaughn, and Sheets, who should all be DH or 1B guys, but 2 of them have to play the field and weaken the defense.  Plus, only one of them is a lefty.  

3.  It's not just the offense.  On the pitching side, Lucas Giolito has regressed to being a sub-par starter.  Johnny Cueto had a great bounce back year, but is a free agent, and can he be counted on next year?  Dylan Cease is the ACE.  Lance Lynn seems to be back to normal, but is older and has health issues.  And Kopech seems okay, but his record was terrible and he's not fully stretched out or reliable to pitch an entire season.  So that's 2 sold starters and a lot of question marks. 

4.  The bullpen looks like the best part of the team, especially if Crochet returns to form.  Hendrix and Graveman are solid, Lopez has found his groove, Lambert has done quite well. Add back Crochet as a lefty and this is a strength.  

The bottom line is that the Sox can't really trade anyone for some reliable lefty starters who play good defense.  They have Oscar Colas in the minors, but he's not ready for MLB.  

They could try some patchwork things, but it's not going to make Grandal, Moncada, Anderson, Robert and Jimenez into reliable everyday players.  Of those 5, only Robert and Moncada play good defense.  

So, of course the Sox can let go of TLR (he should retire) and fire the hitting coach, but even if they had money they can't reliably win with this core.  It's pretty sad as a Sox fan.  But I think that's reality.

It's interesting how 6 months ago you called Sox fans negative and whiners for not being happy with the team direction. And now you are leapfrogging us all and going in to Jack Parkman territory in declaring next year lost as well.

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5 hours ago, Balta1701 said:

For anyone who thought that Cairo was a magical solution I give you the last 3 games.

Robert played 1 time and was still not physically able to play. The bullpen usage on Tuesday was straight up bizarre and almost certainly cost the game. The defense early in games was still comical. The offensive preparation was hilariously bad - how do you go into the biggest series of the year and take 1 walk in 3 games? And in general, Cleveland was far more motivated and prepared even though they were tired from a 5 games in 4 days series.

Yep. And Cairo running out the injury excuses for the season is rubbing me the wrong way. I'd like to see someone brought in from outside the organization.

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7 hours ago, Balta1701 said:

For anyone who thought that Cairo was a magical solution I give you the last 3 games.

Robert played 1 time and was still not physically able to play. The bullpen usage on Tuesday was straight up bizarre and almost certainly cost the game. The defense early in games was still comical. The offensive preparation was hilariously bad - how do you go into the biggest series of the year and take 1 walk in 3 games? And in general, Cleveland was far more motivated and prepared even though they were tired from a 5 games in 4 days series.

Not to mention one was an MLB season record 14 innings long.

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15 hours ago, ChiSox59 said:

The Indians still have awful ownership and I do believe Franconas contract is up. He will prob be back in 23 but he’s not gonna manage forever. The Indians are a team that believes and is playing really well atm but I don’t think they’re going to be some unbeatable juggernaut moving forward. 

Say what you will about their ownership but you're completely wrong and the facts prove it:

1. Guardians have already proven to be better

2. Youngest team in baseball

3. 3rd best farm system in baseball (as of Aug 23, 2022 per MLB)

4.  Their team payroll currently sits $127m lower than Sox; $69 vs $196

All the while finishing ahead of Sox in AL standings from 2013-2018 (& 2019 tie); winning 94 games in 2016, 102 in 2017, & 91 in 2018 yet still accomplished #'s 1-4. Sox have managed 26th best farm while sucking those same years   Cleveland's awful ownership?  Really?  I sure wish ours was on that level of awful!!! 

This Sox rebuild is a bust!  Not sure if Cleveland is a "juggernaut";  their future looks pretty damn good!  I do know this pathetic dysfunctional White Sox org is not going to challenge them for quite some time.

Edited by Rounding_Third
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https://www.mlb.com/news/will-brennan-guardians-callup
 

Cleveland added yet another rookie position player to mix.

 

Why now?
Brennan has been knocking on the big league door all season. It seemed inevitable that he was going to get his first callup to the Majors at some point in 2022, but the Guardians knew they had a difficult decision when the rosters expanded to 28 players on Sept. 1. With just two slots, Guardians president of baseball operations Chris Antonetti took a trip to Columbus to explain to all worthy candidates that it’s difficult to promote just two players. Brennan was certainly one of the members of the targeted audience of that conversation.

 

Manager Terry Francona explained on Wednesday afternoon why it was best to wait until the Minor League season was coming to a close before calling them up. 

“We’ve been talking about [Brennan] for quite a while,” Francona said. “Even three, four weeks ago, we were like, ‘OK, this would be our best roster, him and Arias.’ But Chris was like, ‘OK, where do you play him?’ I’m like, ‘I don’t know.’ … Even though it looks like our best roster, until we have a better feel, let’s let them play, because they’re gonna play every night and that’s really good for them. And then when we got to a point, we’re like, OK, I think they have four games left, maybe five. They’ve played. So we can get them here.”

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What have the reports on Brennan been?
Brennan started the year with Double-A Akron, but after owning a .311 average and .886 OPS with 12 doubles, four homers and 39 RBIs in 36 games, he received a promotion to Columbus.

The 24-year-old outfielder hasn’t let up since, batting .316 in Triple-A with an .838 OPS, 28 doubles, three triples, nine homers, 68 RBIs, 15 stolen bases, 33 walks and 53 strikeouts in 93 contests.

“Hearing a lot of the same stuff that people talked about with Kwan,” Francona said. “The same type of kid. A competitor, which, to me, is a pretty high compliment. They say he has a little bit of an edge to him, in a good way. He likes to compete and he will do what he’s supposed to do, he’ll be on time.

"He’s just a baseball player. I’ve been hearing people talk about him since Spring Training. It was too soon. This kid needs to play. But he went out and had a hell of a year."

 

Difficult conversation with Clement
Clement played in 64 games with the Guardians this season with some stints at Columbus. He was most recently called back up on Sept. 1, but hardly saw any playing time over the last few weeks. Clement hit .200 with a .485 OPS.

“We told him, ‘We’re not telling you you can’t play,’” Francona said. “He was as professional as you could be and it wouldn’t shock me if somebody claims him. And for Ernie’s sake, I hope they do.”

Did you like this story?
 

Mandy Bell covers the Guardians for MLB.com. Follow her on Twitter at @MandyBell02. Listen to her on the Ballpark Dimensions podcast with Sarah Langs.

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On 9/22/2022 at 12:59 PM, Balta1701 said:

I've seen worse coaching, but blah. How many pitchers exceeded their goals or outperformed expectations this year? Cease, Lambert, maybe Lopez, Cueto, and? 

Who didn't? Giolito, Lynn, Kopech, Keuchel, Hendriks, Graveman, Kelly, Bummer, Crochet, Ruiz, Foster, Diekman, Crick, Banks, Severino. Yeah some of them have no talent, but yeesh. 

And I'm going to be angry about the bullpen usage on Tuesday for weeks. 

So yeah, I won't miss him either. 

Sounds bad when you say it like that.

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14 hours ago, caulfield12 said:

https://www.mlb.com/news/will-brennan-guardians-callup
 

Cleveland added yet another rookie position player to mix.

 

Why now?
Brennan has been knocking on the big league door all season. It seemed inevitable that he was going to get his first callup to the Majors at some point in 2022, but the Guardians knew they had a difficult decision when the rosters expanded to 28 players on Sept. 1. With just two slots, Guardians president of baseball operations Chris Antonetti took a trip to Columbus to explain to all worthy candidates that it’s difficult to promote just two players. Brennan was certainly one of the members of the targeted audience of that conversation.

 

Manager Terry Francona explained on Wednesday afternoon why it was best to wait until the Minor League season was coming to a close before calling them up. 

“We’ve been talking about [Brennan] for quite a while,” Francona said. “Even three, four weeks ago, we were like, ‘OK, this would be our best roster, him and Arias.’ But Chris was like, ‘OK, where do you play him?’ I’m like, ‘I don’t know.’ … Even though it looks like our best roster, until we have a better feel, let’s let them play, because they’re gonna play every night and that’s really good for them. And then when we got to a point, we’re like, OK, I think they have four games left, maybe five. T

 

What have the reports on Brennan been?
Brennan started the year with Double-A Akron, but after owning a .311 average and .886 OPS with 12 doubles, four homers and 39 RBIs in 36 games, he received a promotion to Columbus.

The 24-year-old outfielder hasn’t let up since, batting .316 in Triple-A with an .838 OPS, 28 doubles, three triples, nine homers, 68 RBIs, 15 stolen bases, 33 walks and 53 strikeouts in 93 contests.

“Hearing a lot of the same stuff that people talked about with Kwan,” Francona said. “The same type of kid. A competitor, which, to me, is a pretty high compliment. They say he has a little bit of an edge to him, in a good way. He likes to compete and he will do what he’s supposed to do, he’ll be on time.

"He’s just a baseball player. I’ve been hearing people talk about him since Spring Training. It was too soon. This kid needs to play. But he went out and had a hell of a year."

 

Difficult conversation with Clement
Clement played in 64 games with the Guardians this season with some stints at Columbus. He was most recently called back up on Sept. 1, but hardly saw any playing time over the last few weeks. Clement hit .200 with a .485 OPS.

“We told him, ‘We’re not telling you you can’t play,’” Francona said. “He was as professional as you could be and it wouldn’t shock me if somebody claims him. And for Ernie’s sake, I hope they do.”

This kid is really solid. Then again, so is Colas. Sad for him, Colas isn't a team where performance and winning matters more than 2029 arbitration hearings.

2022 Minor League Statistics (Both players are 24 years old)

Colas 113 Games, 507 PA, .309 BA, .367 OBP, .510 SLG, .877 OPS

Brennan 129 Games, 590 PA, .314, BA, .369 OBP, .479 SLG, .850 OPS

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