Talent or Desire?

[greg775]

I think it's lack of talent. Also poor coaching and poor training. Our hitters are horrible and obviously the hitting coach has either a bad philosophy of hitting or is just incompetent. Pitchers ... it's also talent. Cueto and Cease and Liam are pretty good the rest overrated.

Sox have so many holes I'm just shocked they are over .500.

[caulfield12]

7 hours ago, SleepyWhiteSox said:

Lack of player development.

Chris Getz’s name hardly comes up.

He went to Michigan and played for the Sox.  Protected.

Same with Hostetler.  
He must know what he’s doing, he worked for the Braves.

 

Edited September 23, 2022 by caulfield12

[Texsox]

10 hours ago, Quin said:

This. This. This.

There's a reason They went even on a short run after Cairo just fired them up. We saw them dominate at various points over the last two years.

These teams are talented. I'm convinced Francona has them towards the top of the AL, let alone the central.

Are you convinced enough in the talent assembled to keep Hahn? 

[Quin]

19 minutes ago, Texsox said:

Are you convinced enough in the talent assembled to keep Hahn? 

Nah cause he can't assemble depth for s%*#.

[Texsox]

13 minutes ago, Quin said:

Nah cause he can't assemble depth for s%*#.

I agree. So how does Francona get these same guys to the top of the AL? 

 

[Balta1701]

1 hour ago, Texsox said:

I agree. So how does Francona get these same guys to the top of the AL? 

 

They have the #3 system in MLB and played 16 rookies this year, a franchise record over 120+ years. They assembled depth worth s%*#.

[Texsox]

1 minute ago, Balta1701 said:

They have the #3 system in MLB and played 16 rookies this year, a franchise record over 120+ years. They assembled depth worth s%*#.

Quin is convinced Francona could take *this team* to the top of the AL.  I think we both would disagree. 

[Balta1701]

Just now, Texsox said:

Quin is convinced Francona could take *this team* to the top of the AL.  I think we both would disagree. 

Top of the AL? No the Astros are loaded and Judge might hit 61 tonight.

Top of the Central and 90 some wins against weak competition? Absolutely.

[Texsox]

4 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

Top of the AL? No the Astros are loaded and Judge might hit 61 tonight.

Top of the Central and 90 some wins against weak competition? Absolutely.

Same roster? I don't think so. Too many holes. I wasn't convinced in April and I'm certainly not convinced in September. 

 

[wegner]

My wife informed me I was being too harsh when I suggested this team had no pride....I disagree....60% desire 40% talent

[South Side Hit Men]

1 minute ago, Texsox said:

Same roster? I don't think so. Too many holes. I wasn't convinced in April and I'm certainly not convinced in September. 

Would have been far less holes without Tony and Hahn pushing for Kelly, "everyday" Leury, Pollock and other garbage acquisitions.

The Sox need to dump old and injury prone younger players and stop signing new ones. Tito lives in the present, the Sox in the past.

[Balta1701]

1 minute ago, Texsox said:

Same roster? I don't think so. Too many holes. I wasn't convinced in April and I'm certainly not convinced in September. 

 

Yeah I’m still in with they’re ahead of Cleveland without the bullshit.

I just watched a key series where the white Sox gave away the first game with bullpen insanity, were completely outhustled, looked like Sean Spicer on DWTS on defense, and took 1 walk in 3 games (COME ON). That is a completely different series with coaching.

[Texsox]

12 hours ago, Quin said:

This. This. This.

There's a reason They went even on a short run after Cairo just fired them up. We saw them dominate at various points over the last two years.

These teams are talented. I'm convinced Francona has them towards the top of the AL, let alone the central.

 

15 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

They have the #3 system in MLB and played 16 rookies this year, a franchise record over 120+ years. They assembled depth worth s%*#.

I think I would share Quin's optimism but give Francona a few years. 

[Texsox]

4 minutes ago, South Side Hit Men said:

Would have been far less holes without Tony and Hahn pushing for Kelly, "everyday" Leury, Pollock and other garbage acquisitions.

The Sox need to dump old and injury prone younger players and stop signing new ones. Tito lives in the present, the Sox in the past.

Dumping injury prone is half the solution. Getting decent return is the harder part. Reference Madrigal to Cubs. 

[Texsox]

7 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

Yeah I’m still in with they’re ahead of Cleveland without the bullshit.

I just watched a key series where the white Sox gave away the first game with bullpen insanity, were completely outhustled, looked like Sean Spicer on DWTS on defense, and took 1 walk in 3 games (COME ON). That is a completely different series with coaching.

Yep, they suck. Completely different? Mildly different is about as far as I'd go. I didn't see anything this year to change my opinion. 

[The Beast]

13 hours ago, JoeC said:

Raw talent with no refinement. Bad habits allowed to persist. Lack of leadership to tell players otherwise AND hold them accountable.

Hold them accountable by sending those with options down. It worked with Happ and Schwarber. Why can’t it work here?

[Balta1701]

2 minutes ago, Texsox said:

Yep, they suck. Completely different? Mildly different is about as far as I'd go. I didn't see anything this year to change my opinion. 

They suck specifically in ways that are coachable. Fundamentals. Approach. Motivation. Focus. Energy.

[South Side Hit Men]

23 minutes ago, Texsox said:

Dumping injury prone is half the solution. Getting decent return is the harder part. Reference Madrigal to Cubs. 

Not looking for return on most of these guys, just young, hungry, able to play their assigned positions.

2005 Kenny Williams could fill in the gaps and make it work. Rick Hahn is out of his element, Vaughn the only piece he added beyond pawning off everything he inherited.

[Texsox]

6 hours ago, Balta1701 said:

They suck specifically in ways that are coachable. Fundamentals. Approach. Motivation. Focus. Energy.

 It's a terrible roster with too many one dimensional players and lower level talent. If it comes back mostly intact with a promise of better coaching for completely different results I won't be excited but I hope you are right. 

I think the roster needs a major overhaul to get completely different results not just a managerial change. 

 

[Texsox]

6 hours ago, Balta1701 said:

They suck specifically in ways that are coachable. Fundamentals. Approach. Motivation. Focus. Energy.

 

6 hours ago, South Side Hit Men said:

Not looking for return on most of these guys, just young, hungry, able to play their assigned positions.

2005 Kenny Williams could fill in the gaps and make it work. Rick Hahn is out of his element, Vaughn the only piece he added beyond pawning off everything he inherited.

According to Balta better coaching would have completely different results including a division winner. That doesn't seem like Hahn is out of his element. It sounds like Hahn's guys just need better coaching. 

[caulfield12]

Luis Robert and Moncada needed to play like stars and Cease/Kopech become aces.  Period.  Full stop.

Then, much more was expected of Eloy, as well.

We now have one of those in Cease…and then Rodon, but that’s another story for another day.  And Vaughn playing at a position where only SS and CF would be worse for him.  Maybe catcher?

[Chimpton]

19 hours ago, GreenSox said:

Clearly a lack of talent.

I'm sure we'll hear the "LaRussa sapped all the desire" line from the FO, via media/bloggers over the next few months.

But it is also lack of desire, not every winning team is stacked with talent throughout but often perform better than expected, these Sox players have as a collective performed way below what was expected, and seem too ready to grab at excuses for their underperformance, like constantly bringing up injuries.

[Chimpton]

1 hour ago, Texsox said:

 

According to Balta better coaching would have completely different results including a division winner. That doesn't seem like Hahn is out of his element. It sounds like Hahn's guys just need better coaching. 

Hahn has assembled a roster that lacks depth and has glaring holes, but even with that they have performed way below expectations and poor coaching and lack of accountability has played a big part in that.

[JoeC]

9 hours ago, The Beast said:

Hold them accountable by sending those with options down. It worked with Happ and Schwarber. Why can’t it work here?

Problem is, while I fundamentally agree, what good would it do to banish them to a place where they’re not going to have any sort of reinforcement of good habits?

One  problem is that players don’t get that sort of training in the minors, so what good does it really do other than to serve s as punitive punishment?

 It’s like telling someone they’re doing something wrong, but never telling them what is the right thing to do. Yeah, you hope they can figure it out, but it’s also on you for not showing some sort of direction.

[The Beast]

1 hour ago, JoeC said:

Problem is, while I fundamentally agree, what good would it do to banish them to a place where they’re not going to have any sort of reinforcement of good habits?

One  problem is that players don’t get that sort of training in the minors, so what good does it really do other than to serve s as punitive punishment?

 It’s like telling someone they’re doing something wrong, but never telling them what is the right thing to do. Yeah, you hope they can figure it out, but it’s also on you for not showing some sort of direction.

Then I wonder what kind of coach it takes to hold players accountable. TLR isn’t that guy. I’m not sure if Renteria, Ventura or Guillen were that kind of guy either. Also, can players who are in long term contracts really be held accountable if they were to sit and be used sparingly as pinch hitters?