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This group of players has quit and is not playing hard anymore


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50 minutes ago, soulfly said:

It is entirely Hahns fault.

He deserves a lot of the blame but it’s hard to put it all on him when JR was making choices over his head about the manager… then allowing that manager to make GM type decisions on free agents and trade targets. Hahn and KW biffed the rebuild when they traded for the bird man closer hack job.

Didn’t help that they followed that brilliance up by failing to sign a proper left fielder, right fielder, second baseman, and starting pitcher for depth. I’ll always be curious how many of those choices were a function of Bologna’s input. Could absolutely see him telling everyone they “had it already” with Leury being the man for second and Eloy / Vaughn being a viable solution for the corner outfield spots.

They all need to go. f*** ‘em.

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6 hours ago, hi8is said:

He deserves a lot of the blame but it’s hard to put it all on him when JR was making choices over his head about the manager… then allowing that manager to make GM type decisions on free agents and trade targets. Hahn and KW biffed the rebuild when they traded for the bird man closer hack job.

Didn’t help that they followed that brilliance up by failing to sign a proper left fielder, right fielder, second baseman, and starting pitcher for depth. I’ll always be curious how many of those choices were a function of Bologna’s input. Could absolutely see him telling everyone they “had it already” with Leury being the man for second and Eloy / Vaughn being a viable solution for the corner outfield spots.

They all need to go. f*** ‘em.

I get all this and it's all true, but let's focus just on the stuff Hahn should reasonably control in his position - the scouting, player dev and analytics part of the org.

By the end of 2016, the sox decided for a rebuild. Probably would have been a good time to retool the organization in that end. To 'modernize' (Rick Hahn decided to start modernizing 3 years into his tenure apparently), he entrusted Nick Hostetler to run the amateur scouting. He entrusted Chris Getz to run Player Dev. Analytics he just decided to use vendors basically.

Those guys were already in their position.

Getz took over in the midst of a revolution of player development technologies and techniques. He has done admirably imo in trying to keep up with it. But, I don't know, if I was serious about winning I may have tried to go after some of those who had natively ushered in this revolution, not a guy who spent a year in player dev in the famously old school Dayton Moore org. We've certainly been better in player dev - considering hahn set-up this rebuild with a bunch of high variance guys, Getz did get them to the big leagues and got big performances out of Giolito and Cease.

He was an improvement over the white sox, but is he running a top ten unit in baseball? I say no. I think, in contrast to Hahn, that the sox should try to be the best at things.

Hostetler took over for Laumann, who run the draft during a more difficult era for sox drafting, and did struggle to create depth. 

Laumann (2007-2015) during his tenure drafted one of the best pitchers of the decade (sale), a cy young candidate (rodon), a multiple time all star shortstop (TA), a top 5 mvp finisher and multi-time all star (Semien).

His failure was drafting players that sometimes washed out before the majors. Hostetlers expert plan was to get more players that would wash out in the majors.

Despite always having a full set of picks, and some of the highest draft positions the sox have ever consistently had, we are leaving his draft years of 2016-2019 with a sub-20 home run hitting first baseman possible starter. But that's not fair since he also got us some fringe serviceable relievers.

But we have heard he also "modernized" the unit so that's cool. Last we heard hostetler moved to the mlb scouting side to help us with free agency. We've been as good there.

And in international, Paddy has certainly found us some talent, finally seeing some depth accumulate on the position player side, highlighted by Jose Rodriguez, Lenyn Sosa, Oscar Colas and more. 

However, for some reason we have been signing incredibly small classes, led by the single most infuriating class, 2019 group. This was the group we thought would be huge since for 3 years we were under penalty, so what other class would we work on?

Well, we signed Yolbert Sanchez, a slap hitting 22 year old for $2.5 million. For that amount, you can get slap hitting defensive players in the big leagues, but we got em for that sweet deal. He's currently slap hitting up a storm in AAA. His defense does look pretty sweet though.

So all of the above is just horrible.

Contrast it with how a very similar GM in DiPoto pivoted Seattle to be very tech forward in player dev, and revamped scouting. They arrived as a competitive team still harboring a top 5 farm, which allowed them to get a Luis Castillo. 

By the time sox arrived, the cupboard was bare. We had to trade mlb assets to get a closer, then a pitcher. Subsequently, the pitching we had in AAA and AA was worse then you'd find in the SEC on a friday.

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According to Fegan, who I think is the best beat writer, if you want to call him that, in town, there is a lot of friction between RH and KW with TLR. 

It looks like they know they messed up, but for the love of God, how do you give them the opportunity to fix it? 

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Putting on my "I'm an executive / organizational leader" hat here.

Honestly if I'm JR, I sell.

Second choice - give Hahn 2 years and full control over hiring and firing of coaches, staff, etc. I get the f out of the way with any firings (including old timers).

If Hahn fails to deliver anything short of a 95-win season within 2 years, he's gone, and the place gets burned down to the studs. I fire Hahn knowing that he had a reasonable amount of time. If this "core" group of players is as good as Hahn says it is, I'd give him control and give him the authority to see his vision through.

The Hahn apologists (myself included) have played the "he didn't get a chance to build around the core and round out the team / staff the way he wanted to, so of course he failed" card.

Putting together the core of talent is the hardest part of a rebuild. If it's good, prove it. If it's bad, prove it.

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4 minutes ago, Dick Allen said:

According to Fegan, who I think is the best beat writer, if you want to call him that, in town, there is a lot of friction between RH and KW with TLR. 

It looks like they know they messed up, but for the love of God, how do you give them the opportunity to fix it? 

The question is "who messed up". Was it JR or KW or Hahn or any combination of the group.  If JR said he wanted LaRussa, then KW or Hahn should have said okay it is your team or I am done.  I really doubt KW or Hahn said we did TLR. How, though, do we fix it. 

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25 minutes ago, bmags said:

However, for some reason we have been signing incredibly small classes, led by the single most infuriating class, 2019 group. This was the group we thought would be huge since for 3 years we were under penalty, so what other class would we work on?

Well, we signed Yolbert Sanchez, a slap hitting 22 year old for $2.5 million. For that amount, you can get slap hitting defensive players in the big leagues, but we got em for that sweet deal. He's currently slap hitting up a storm in AAA. His defense does look pretty sweet though.

The absolute worst part of that wasn’t Yolbert, he at least had a nonzero chance of becoming a great player. The worst part was that same year they had so much money left over that they sent it to Texas to get them to pay Nate Jones’s deal. Just plain were too lazy to scout enough players so didn’t bother trying, turned it into some petty cash. The money saved, of course, can’t swing a bat and was only a fraction of Joe Kelly’s deal. Zero chance of turning it into a ball player or making the team better, but Ricky got a longer nap every day that month.

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12 hours ago, CentralChamps21 said:

Can you blame them? A manager they liked got fired and replaced with a 77 year old alcoholic. When they won 93 games despite him, their front office gave their worst player a 3 year deal, traded for an outfielder who can't hit RHP and isn't that good in the outfield, and signed a reliever who was injured. The hitters are being coached by someone who is coaching them counter to their natural talents, and their training staff can't keep them healthy. Why should they give 100% when nobody else in the organization is?

This really speaks to the dysfunctional rot inside the org.  Well put. 

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9 hours ago, Chisoxfn said:

 

I personally am glad they are melting down at the end - ownership better be seeing this and completely clean house.  I want to see a full change - including the bringing in of a complete outside, highly respective person to take over the organization and give it a top to bottom clense. 

I don't expect it to happen - but it needs to happen.  I think with a really good front office person who can give that clens, we could see really great things happen and fast with this franchise.  

 

This is where I am (and I think a good many other are as well), but it's going to set us up for another upsetting off-season because as you say - it needs to happen but I don't expect it to happen.

After years of going into an off-season with clear needs (sign Harper or Machado, sign a RFer, sign a lefty hitter, sign a 2B), and then the subsequent failures to do so, I expect more of the same this year.

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1 hour ago, Dick Allen said:

According to Fegan, who I think is the best beat writer, if you want to call him that, in town, there is a lot of friction between RH and KW with TLR. 

It looks like they know they messed up, but for the love of God, how do you give them the opportunity to fix it? 

I've been wondering all season long, just exactly how many of the moves the Sox made, are Ken Williams doing, and not Rick Hahn . reclamation projects and past their prime players, are KW's forte, after all . for the sake of the ball club, let's hope that they are both gone during the off season.

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19 minutes ago, White Sox Park said:

I've been wondering all season long, just exactly how many of the moves the Sox made, are Ken Williams doing, and not Rick Hahn . reclamation projects and past their prime players, are KW's forte, after all . for the sake of the ball club, let's hope that they are both gone during the off season.

at least KWs reclamation projects worked every once in a while. What's Hahn's excuse?

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13 hours ago, kitekrazy said:

They could have won 100 but Aug. 2021 is when they stopped playing hard or manager tries to win games. 

While we see some of it on here, and especially on Twitter, it's baffling the number of people who have STILL not recognized that TLR lost this team/clubhouse last season.  Players gave him a few months of a fair chance and quickly realized their manager is wholly unrelatable, ignorant of today's game, low-energy, and a narcissist.  They quit on him last season and this season was just the exclamation point.

I believe it got SO bad that they didn't just quit on TLR, they quit on the franchise.  I do believe there was a concerted effort to play so badly that the FO would have to dump TLR.  All season we've complained about the lack of passion, stupid mistakes, poor approaches at the plate, and lack of hustle.  Those are ALL things that happen when a team no longer gives a s%*# about wins or losses.  We have very few impact players who aren't locked up long-term so it's not like they're playing for a contract.  Pride went out the window when they felt/knew the franchise put TLR's ego above all else.

This was not a BAD roster coming into the season.  Potential holes were exacerbated by injuries and poor performance but there are very few who didn't have this team winning the Central and, even in the national press, the Sox were considered WS contenders heading into Opening Day.  From Rick Hahn on down to Frank Menechino on down to TA, we saw what the kids these days apparently call "quiet quitting".  The, "yeah, I'll collect a paycheck but my employer is showing me no loyalty so I'm going to do the absolute bare minimum until they fire me" form of quitting.  

And people will point to this homestand as proof that Cairo was no better than TLR.  Bullshit.  The Sox were playing pretty good ball, best ball of the season.  Tip your hat to Cleveland that they kept winning.  Once Sox lost that first game to CLE, the season was over.  We knew it.  They knew it.  Everyone knew it.  Did we really expect effort after that loss?  I know I didn't....I haven't watched a single pitch since that game.

 

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1 hour ago, mmmmmbeeer said:

While we see some of it on here, and especially on Twitter, it's baffling the number of people who have STILL not recognized that TLR lost this team/clubhouse last season.  Players gave him a few months of a fair chance and quickly realized their manager is wholly unrelatable, ignorant of today's game, low-energy, and a narcissist.  They quit on him last season and this season was just the exclamation point.

I believe it got SO bad that they didn't just quit on TLR, they quit on the franchise.  I do believe there was a concerted effort to play so badly that the FO would have to dump TLR.  All season we've complained about the lack of passion, stupid mistakes, poor approaches at the plate, and lack of hustle.  Those are ALL things that happen when a team no longer gives a s%*# about wins or losses.  We have very few impact players who aren't locked up long-term so it's not like they're playing for a contract.  Pride went out the window when they felt/knew the franchise put TLR's ego above all else.

This was not a BAD roster coming into the season.  Potential holes were exacerbated by injuries and poor performance but there are very few who didn't have this team winning the Central and, even in the national press, the Sox were considered WS contenders heading into Opening Day.  From Rick Hahn on down to Frank Menechino on down to TA, we saw what the kids these days apparently call "quiet quitting".  The, "yeah, I'll collect a paycheck but my employer is showing me no loyalty so I'm going to do the absolute bare minimum until they fire me" form of quitting.  

And people will point to this homestand as proof that Cairo was no better than TLR.  Bullshit.  The Sox were playing pretty good ball, best ball of the season.  Tip your hat to Cleveland that they kept winning.  Once Sox lost that first game to CLE, the season was over.  We knew it.  They knew it.  Everyone knew it.  Did we really expect effort after that loss?  I know I didn't....I haven't watched a single pitch since that game.

 

Call me crazy but I expected effort, that's what being a very highly paid professional means doesn't it?

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4 hours ago, bmags said:

I get all this and it's all true, but let's focus just on the stuff Hahn should reasonably control in his position - the scouting, player dev and analytics part of the org.

By the end of 2016, the sox decided for a rebuild. Probably would have been a good time to retool the organization in that end. To 'modernize' (Rick Hahn decided to start modernizing 3 years into his tenure apparently), he entrusted Nick Hostetler to run the amateur scouting. He entrusted Chris Getz to run Player Dev. Analytics he just decided to use vendors basically.

Those guys were already in their position.

Getz took over in the midst of a revolution of player development technologies and techniques. He has done admirably imo in trying to keep up with it. But, I don't know, if I was serious about winning I may have tried to go after some of those who had natively ushered in this revolution, not a guy who spent a year in player dev in the famously old school Dayton Moore org. We've certainly been better in player dev - considering hahn set-up this rebuild with a bunch of high variance guys, Getz did get them to the big leagues and got big performances out of Giolito and Cease.

He was an improvement over the white sox, but is he running a top ten unit in baseball? I say no. I think, in contrast to Hahn, that the sox should try to be the best at things.

Hostetler took over for Laumann, who run the draft during a more difficult era for sox drafting, and did struggle to create depth. 

Laumann (2007-2015) during his tenure drafted one of the best pitchers of the decade (sale), a cy young candidate (rodon), a multiple time all star shortstop (TA), a top 5 mvp finisher and multi-time all star (Semien).

His failure was drafting players that sometimes washed out before the majors. Hostetlers expert plan was to get more players that would wash out in the majors.

Despite always having a full set of picks, and some of the highest draft positions the sox have ever consistently had, we are leaving his draft years of 2016-2019 with a sub-20 home run hitting first baseman possible starter. But that's not fair since he also got us some fringe serviceable relievers.

But we have heard he also "modernized" the unit so that's cool. Last we heard hostetler moved to the mlb scouting side to help us with free agency. We've been as good there.

And in international, Paddy has certainly found us some talent, finally seeing some depth accumulate on the position player side, highlighted by Jose Rodriguez, Lenyn Sosa, Oscar Colas and more. 

However, for some reason we have been signing incredibly small classes, led by the single most infuriating class, 2019 group. This was the group we thought would be huge since for 3 years we were under penalty, so what other class would we work on?

Well, we signed Yolbert Sanchez, a slap hitting 22 year old for $2.5 million. For that amount, you can get slap hitting defensive players in the big leagues, but we got em for that sweet deal. He's currently slap hitting up a storm in AAA. His defense does look pretty sweet though.

So all of the above is just horrible.

Contrast it with how a very similar GM in DiPoto pivoted Seattle to be very tech forward in player dev, and revamped scouting. They arrived as a competitive team still harboring a top 5 farm, which allowed them to get a Luis Castillo. 

By the time sox arrived, the cupboard was bare. We had to trade mlb assets to get a closer, then a pitcher. Subsequently, the pitching we had in AAA and AA was worse then you'd find in the SEC on a friday.

Yea… “He deserves a lot of the blame…”

I didn’t wanna rehash what we’ve already been beating for years. But you did quite well. Thanks. 😆

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16 hours ago, CentralChamps21 said:

Can you blame them? A manager they liked got fired and replaced with a 77 year old alcoholic. When they won 93 games despite him, their front office gave their worst player a 3 year deal, traded for an outfielder who can't hit RHP and isn't that good in the outfield, and signed a reliever who was injured. The hitters are being coached by someone who is coaching them counter to their natural talents, and their training staff can't keep them healthy. Why should they give 100% when nobody else in the organization is?

based

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36 minutes ago, hi8is said:

Yea… “He deserves a lot of the blame…”

I didn’t wanna rehash what we’ve already been beating for years. But you did quite well. Thanks. 😆

I guess I'm just nervous at the idea that like a manager is going to walk in and fix it all. I think we probably make the playoffs if Cairo was manager from the start, but by the thinnest of margins.

I think we see with the phillies, padres, that disappointing teams can become happy success stories. But they kept pushing forward and feels like Sox are going to have an off season of mostly stepping back and then saying "look new manager".

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Honestly, this organization has almost completely lost me. Much like the Bears. There's only so much self-sabotage, incompetence, and mediocrity you can put up with when it comes to a team you support. They truly don't deserve fans(especially with the organization-wide disdain they tend to show for fans). They don't deserve our money. This is the underlying principle of a free market and capitalism, right? If you run a good business and produce a good product, people will pay for it. If you run a poor business, and produce poor products, people likely won't pay for it... You certainly can't complain when they don't.  

The White Sox need a wakeup call. I'd love to see that stadium fucking empty all season next year.

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Haven't posted in some time, but I still read frequently. Been an active Sox fan for 31 years now, and this is the most disgusted I've ever been with the team. Honestly, if it wasn't for Frank Thomas and those early 90s teams, I'm not sure I would have ever latched on. Objectively speaking, this franchise is easily bottom quartile in management top to bottom past the inaugural phase of my fandom. Watching them continue to fall further and further behind the competition is a prime exercise in soul-sucking.

I stopped watching all Sox games over a month ago for the first time in my life during any season no matter how bad they were. The first week, I still flipped over to check the score, but I've managed to go cold turkey since. I promised myself I would not watch a single second of Sox baseball unless TLR was fired. 

My kids are now at a very impressionable age and are playing little league. We have an annual pre-planned trip to the ballpark where they're generally showered with Sox gear. Had I not bought tickets during the pre-season, there's a good chance we would not have attended this year. I bought them ZERO Sox items at the ballpark. If there isn't a significant house-cleaning this offseason, I'm officially boycotting. I'll take the kids to the Brewers game instead as it's about equidistant to get there for us. I see no reason to submit my kids to this lifetime of suffering following a miserable, regressive organization. 

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48 minutes ago, bmags said:

I guess I'm just nervous at the idea that like a manager is going to walk in and fix it all. I think we probably make the playoffs if Cairo was manager from the start, but by the thinnest of margins.

I think we see with the phillies, padres, that disappointing teams can become happy success stories. But they kept pushing forward and feels like Sox are going to have an off season of mostly stepping back and then saying "look new manager".

Imagine if they had signed Schwarber, Escobar, and Rodon like many of us wanted them to.

I don’t think anyone is under the illusion that Hahn and co aren’t a part of the problem.

Hell, my guess is by now even Hahn himself is having self doubt. 😆

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50 minutes ago, bmags said:

I guess I'm just nervous at the idea that like a manager is going to walk in and fix it all. I think we probably make the playoffs if Cairo was manager from the start, but by the thinnest of margins.

I think we see with the phillies, padres, that disappointing teams can become happy success stories. But they kept pushing forward and feels like Sox are going to have an off season of mostly stepping back and then saying "look new manager".

Yeah it’s definitely not 100% on LaRussa. Players should be trying hard and giving full effort no matter who the manager is.

Changes need to happen in the front office and player evaluation as well as the manager.

Edited by Bob Sacamano
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