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The case for Katz?


kitekrazy
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 I want the whole staff gone next season.

I don't get the case for Katz.  It is because of Cease?  As for Lopez the credit is given to Cueto. Wasn't this Gio'a choice?  The pen was falling apart a year ago.

I don't think the team lives or dies with him.  He just looks competent compared to the others.

I want the whole staff gone because they are part of the suck whether they have anything to do with it.

 

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15 minutes ago, kitekrazy said:

 I want the whole staff gone next season.

I don't get the case for Katz.  It is because of Cease?  As for Lopez the credit is given to Cueto. Wasn't this Gio'a choice?  The pen was falling apart a year ago.

I don't think the team lives or dies with him.  He just looks competent compared to the others.

I want the whole staff gone because they are part of the suck whether they have anything to do with it.

 

I don't care who stays or goes, as long as it is 100% the new manager's decision.

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Because I'd rather the Sox not lose the one person in the dugout (and possibly the one guy in the entire organization) who uses (or at least tries to use) state-of-the-art analytics.

If they are really cleaning house, then that means we will load up with modern thinkers, so fine, he can go.  But if it's the culling of a few scapegoats, then it's essential that he stays.

Edited by GreenSox
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Katz has been here 2 years, in one of those seasons, the Sox had arguably the best pitching staff in baseball. Cease and Rodon both went from varying degrees of brokenness before he got here to eventually becoming CY caliber pitchers under him. Lopez is another big positive, as you mentioned, as are lower tiered arms like Lambert and Davis Martin.

I know this was before he got here, but he also still deserves a ton of credit for helping fix Lucas. He'll have to do it again, but that's *another*example of him taking a broken pitcher and turning him into a CY contender.

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Over the last 2 years, the White Sox pitching staff is 2nd in fWAR amongst all teams. 8th in park adjusted ERA, 2nd in FIP, 5th in strikeout rate, etc.

https://www.fangraphs.com/leaders.aspx?pos=all&stats=pit&lg=all&qual=0&type=8&season=2022&month=0&season1=2021&ind=0&team=0,ts&rost=0&age=0&filter=&players=0&startdate=2021-01-01&enddate=2022-12-31

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1 hour ago, Jack Parkman said:

What if the new manager fired Katz and kept Menechino? 

I’d hopefully have been disappointed at the time of the managerial hiring, before it ever came to that.

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Some of the absolute worst decisions of the last 2 years were about how the bullpen was used or how they set up their pitchers. We sent Kopech out to pitch while he was injured. We lost the last chance game this season with Lambert on the mound. We lost a game this year because we had roughly 2 relievers available, and 2 days later Hendriks went on the IL for a month. We had Kopech pitch in the playoffs last year after throwing 45 pitches 2 days before, which he didn’t do all year. Somehow no one recognized that Rodon was out of gas or that Giolito needed pulled or that Lynn against the Astros on the road was a bad matchup. 

Did Ethan Katz have zero input on how his pitchers were being used? Many of them do well when on the mound, but the number of times we put them in bad situations is staggering. Some of these are really bad, like Kopech pitching after an injury in warmups. That’s career threatening s%*# and it happened with him as the pitching coach.

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12 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

Some of the absolute worst decisions of the last 2 years were about how the bullpen was used or how they set up their pitchers. We sent Kopech out to pitch while he was injured. We lost the last chance game this season with Lambert on the mound. We lost a game this year because we had roughly 2 relievers available, and 2 days later Hendriks went on the IL for a month. We had Kopech pitch in the playoffs last year after throwing 45 pitches 2 days before, which he didn’t do all year. Somehow no one recognized that Rodon was out of gas or that Giolito needed pulled or that Lynn against the Astros on the road was a bad matchup. 

Did Ethan Katz have zero input on how his pitchers were being used? Many of them do well when on the mound, but the number of times we put them in bad situations is staggering. Some of these are really bad, like Kopech pitching after an injury in warmups. That’s career threatening s%*# and it happened with him as the pitching coach.

Seems nobody was willing here (including the training staff) to take on LaRussa or question "the Sox system" and it's easy to understand for a relative MLB outsider not wanting to shake the boat like a certain highly touted Coach Lisle.

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22 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

Some of the absolute worst decisions of the last 2 years were about how the bullpen was used or how they set up their pitchers. We sent Kopech out to pitch while he was injured. We lost the last chance game this season with Lambert on the mound. We lost a game this year because we had roughly 2 relievers available, and 2 days later Hendriks went on the IL for a month. We had Kopech pitch in the playoffs last year after throwing 45 pitches 2 days before, which he didn’t do all year. Somehow no one recognized that Rodon was out of gas or that Giolito needed pulled or that Lynn against the Astros on the road was a bad matchup. 

Did Ethan Katz have zero input on how his pitchers were being used? Many of them do well when on the mound, but the number of times we put them in bad situations is staggering. Some of these are really bad, like Kopech pitching after an injury in warmups. That’s career threatening s%*# and it happened with him as the pitching coach.

Give Michael Lewis two years and access to everyone in the Sox organization the past three years, and he'd have a book and movie that would make Moneyball seem like a dull I Love Lucy episode (or The Last Dance, for that matter).

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I think it’s safe to say the results are mixed.  We don’t know what level of input Katz had during in game decisions, or whether any input was even considered knowing who the “manager” was.  I am open to retaining him if the new manager is on board, but I also won’t shed any tears if he is let go with the rest of the current staff.  

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33 minutes ago, Tnetennba said:

I think it’s safe to say the results are mixed.  We don’t know what level of input Katz had during in game decisions, or whether any input was even considered knowing who the “manager” was.  I am open to retaining him if the new manager is on board, but I also won’t shed any tears if he is let go with the rest of the current staff.  

His huge claim to fame in my eyes was the resurgences of Gio and Rodon.

Not sure how much he helped in other ways

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17 hours ago, maxjusttyped said:

Over the last 2 years, the White Sox pitching staff is 2nd in fWAR amongst all teams. 8th in park adjusted ERA, 2nd in FIP, 5th in strikeout rate, etc.

https://www.fangraphs.com/leaders.aspx?pos=all&stats=pit&lg=all&qual=0&type=8&season=2022&month=0&season1=2021&ind=0&team=0,ts&rost=0&age=0&filter=&players=0&startdate=2021-01-01&enddate=2022-12-31

Yeah, firing Katz makes no sense.

Not even Katz can fix all the broken s%*# Hahn throws at him in the pen. If anything they should have given him a chance to improve some young guys out there, instead of weighing him down with aging vets who are overrated hacks like Kelly.

Edited by Look at Ray Ray Run
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2 hours ago, JoeC said:

His huge claim to fame in my eyes was the resurgences of Gio and Rodon.

Not sure how much he helped in other ways

He should also get some credit for helping Cease realise his massive potential, and turning ReyLo into a legit reliever.  The rest is questionable IMO.  

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5 hours ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

Yeah, firing Menechino makes no sense.

Not even Menechino can fix all the broken s%*# Hahn throws at him. If anything they should have given him a chance to improve some young guys out there, instead of weighing him down with aging vets who are overrated hacks like Harrison and Garcia.

Using the same argument and logic. What do you think @Look at Ray Ray Run

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1 hour ago, Texsox said:

He was another friends and family connected hire. No MLB experience as a player. Yet, I'm fine with him staying. 

Huh?  Katz was the asst. pitching coach for a very successful Giants staff.  That's exactly the profile of somebody you'd hire as your pitching coach. I'll grant that he's the guy who fixed Giolito during an offseason after having been his HS pitching coach, but I have a hard time seeing how that can be counted against him.

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2 minutes ago, Timmy U said:

Huh?  Katz was the asst. pitching coach for a very successful Giants staff.  That's exactly the profile of somebody you'd hire as your pitching coach. I'll grant that he's the guy who fixed Giolito during an offseason after having been his HS pitching coach, but I have a hard time seeing how that can be counted against him.

Huh? Katz never played in the MLB. 

 

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On 10/1/2022 at 5:49 PM, GreenSox said:

Because I'd rather the Sox not lose the one person in the dugout (and possibly the one guy in the entire organization) who uses (or at least tries to use) state-of-the-art analytics.

If they are really cleaning house, then that means we will load up with modern thinkers, so fine, he can go.  But if it's the culling of a few scapegoats, then it's essential that he stays.

He'd certainly be given every opportunity to lobby for himself to keep the job and I'm sure, if the staff feels strongly about him staying, the new manager would welcome and consider their input.  That said, if the new manager and Katz don't see eye-to-eye, be it on a professional level or on a personal level, then he's just not going to be a good fit.  

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