South Side Hit Men Posted October 5, 2022 Share Posted October 5, 2022 1 hour ago, ShoeLessRob said: Your last paragraph is crap. Tony was Jerry’s hire and the subsequent moves were at the behest of Tony. I’m not defending Hahn, because he’s a terrible GM who went into the season with 5 DHs without ever addressing the black holes on the team, the entire ownership and front office are incompetent. That’s revisionist history and not accurate. First of all I said three seasons, and last I checked Tony was in Anaheim when “GM of the Year” signed Keuchel, Parrot, Mazara and others. Second of all, Rick Hahn was the one strutting like a peacock after the Kimbrel signing, crowing about how it was his “best idea”. After it blew up in the idiot’s face, he double downed on it to try to save face and his fragile little ego, and it blew up in his face yet again when he got pwned once again by the Dodgers GM. Tony La Russa didn’t even want the guy, said closers typically are more comfortable as a closer, made these comments through the Sox playoff exit. Turned out Tony was right and Hahn as always dead wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShoeLessRob Posted October 5, 2022 Share Posted October 5, 2022 (edited) 56 minutes ago, South Side Hit Men said: That’s revisionist history and not accurate. First of all I said three seasons, and last I checked Tony was in Anaheim when “GM of the Year” signed Keuchel, Parrot, Mazara and others. Second of all, Rick Hahn was the one strutting like a peacock after the Kimbrel signing, crowing about how it was his “best idea”. After it blew up in the idiot’s face, he double downed on it to try to save face and his fragile little ego, and it blew up in his face yet again when he got pwned once again by the Dodgers GM. Tony La Russa didn’t even want the guy, said closers typically are more comfortable as a closer, made these comments through the Sox playoff exit. Turned out Tony was right and Hahn as always dead wrong. If you don’t think Tony had a heavy hand in acquiring the likes of Kelly, Pollock, and resigning Leury Garcia than your in denial. Once again I’m not defending Hahn because I AGREE he’s a terrible GM, but Tony was Jerry’s decision and several of the subsequent moves or lack thereof afterwards are strictly tied to him. Jerry R. is the equivalent to Jerry Jones in the MLB which is why owners should not be involved in the day to day operations of the ball club, hire competent men (or women) to do the job and stay the f*** out. Edited October 5, 2022 by ShoeLessRob 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
South Side Hit Men Posted October 5, 2022 Share Posted October 5, 2022 18 minutes ago, ShoeLessRob said: If you don’t think Tony had a heavy hand in acquiring the likes of Kelly, Pollock, and resigning Leury Garcia than your in denial. Once again I’m not defending Hahn because I AGREE he’s a terrible GM, but Tony was Jerry’s decision and several of the subsequent moves or lack thereof afterwards are strictly tied to him. Jerry R. is the equivalent to Jerry Jones in the MLB which is why owners should not be involved in the day to day operations of the ball club, hire competent men (or women) to do the job and stay the f*** out. I never thought or stated Tony had no role in the players you mentioned. Reading comprehension is a skill. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShoeLessRob Posted October 5, 2022 Share Posted October 5, 2022 2 minutes ago, South Side Hit Men said: I never thought or stated Tony had no role in the players you mentioned. Reading comprehension is a skill. 👍🏼 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wegner Posted October 5, 2022 Share Posted October 5, 2022 20 minutes ago, ShoeLessRob said: If you don’t think Tony had a heavy hand in acquiring the likes of Kelly, Pollock, and resigning Leury Garcia than your in denial. Once again I’m not defending Hahn because I AGREE he’s a terrible GM, but Tony was Jerry’s decision and several of the subsequent moves or lack thereof afterwards are strictly tied to him. Jerry R. is the equivalent to Jerry Jones in the MLB which is why owners should not be involved in the day to day operations of the ball club, hire competent men (or women) to do the job and stay the f*** out. I don't know about Pollock....I tend to think that move was all that was available. It was a stupid decision by Hahn to pick up Kimbrel's option. Hahn clearly did not guage the market for Kimbrel correctly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greg775 Posted October 5, 2022 Share Posted October 5, 2022 (edited) If Jose is a free agent I hope he stays in Chicago. Let him play 3 solid seasons for the Cubs if the Sox don't want him. He's not finished folks. I get madder and madder when I see people think it actually would help the Sox for him to leave. I love me some Abreu. Edited October 5, 2022 by greg775 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigHurt3515 Posted October 5, 2022 Share Posted October 5, 2022 It is such a tough decision. If you resign him then you are okay with Eloy or Vaughn in LF or trading Vaughn for 1 or 2 years of Abreu Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted October 5, 2022 Share Posted October 5, 2022 31 minutes ago, greg775 said: If Jose is a free agent I hope he stays in Chicago. Let him play 3 solid seasons for the Cubs if the Sox don't want him. He's not finished folks. I get madder and madder when I see people think it actually would help the Sox for him to leave. I love me some Abreu. Did you say the same thing about Konerko at the end? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lip Man 1 Posted October 5, 2022 Share Posted October 5, 2022 He'll be with the Marlins. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reiks12 Posted October 5, 2022 Share Posted October 5, 2022 Resigning Abreu just sounds like Konerko 2.0. If i remember correctly, didnt signing him for 2014 create a roster crunch that led to including Semien in the Samardzjia deal? Jaime see if you can pull that up id hate to give up on Vaughn and watch him become Semien 2.0. History does repeat itself. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
South Side Hit Men Posted October 5, 2022 Share Posted October 5, 2022 5 minutes ago, reiks12 said: Resigning Abreu just sounds like Konerko 2.0. If i remember correctly, didnt signing him for 2014 create a roster crunch that led to including Semien in the Samardzjia deal? Jaime see if you can pull that up id hate to give up on Vaughn and watch him become Semien 2.0. History does repeat itself. Not the same. Not close. Jose averaged nearly double the WAR of Pauly, and absolutely crushes him in the leadup to a "final contract". Konerko 2013 .669 OPS & -1.3 bWAR. 12/4/13 1 Year Deal. 2014 .572 OPS, -0.7 bWAR Abreu 2022 .822 OPS & 4.2 bWAR White Sox Average Annual bWAR: Abreu 3.54 vs. Konerko 1.83 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soxfaninfl Posted October 5, 2022 Share Posted October 5, 2022 47 minutes ago, reiks12 said: Resigning Abreu just sounds like Konerko 2.0. If i remember correctly, didnt signing him for 2014 create a roster crunch that led to including Semien in the Samardzjia deal? Jaime see if you can pull that up id hate to give up on Vaughn and watch him become Semien 2.0. History does repeat itself. Semien was traded in the off-season between 2014 and 2015. Paulie’s 2014 contract really had nothing to do with the trade. But while we are talking about Koneko, OPS+ of 130 at age 36 (2012). He declined in 2013 but that was the final year of a contract. And, as it is already been pointed out, Abreu’s career actually eclipses Konerko’s during the same age years. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dominikk85 Posted October 5, 2022 Share Posted October 5, 2022 The abreu decision is a tough one. He was the sox best player in 2022 but at some point he probably will start to decline plus vaughn in left was so bad that despite a solid 115 wrc+ he had 0 fWAR so he basically loses everything he gains with the bat with his glove. On the other hand losing abreu and plugging vaughn at first means you weaken the offense because even if vaughn can replicate most of abreus value at first you have to fill that LF spot with a productive player. Maybe colas could be that player but there is risk with him too (he is an extreme free swinger like many sox players). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoxAce Posted October 5, 2022 Share Posted October 5, 2022 Thanks for the memories Jose, but it's time to move on. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CentralChamps21 Posted October 5, 2022 Share Posted October 5, 2022 There are three ways this can go. Well, I guess there's four but I'm choosing to believe that they aren't going to have Abreu, Vaughn, and Eloy all on the roster next year. Option A is to just not re-sign Abreu. This is the best option payroll wise. Provides some money to sign or trade for a real corner OF or 2B. Also Vaughn and Eloy are under team control for longer than Abreu could be expected to stick around. Option B is to re-sign Abreu and trade Vaughn. This is the best option talent wise, as Abreu figures to be about as good as Vaughn next year, but you get to acquire more talent for Vaughn. This is also best for team morale and fan interest as Jose is very popular with teammates and fans. Option C is to re-sign Abreu and trade Eloy. Not as good for talent as trading Vaughn and not as good for payroll as letting Abreu walk. I think the optimal path is to explore what kind of returns you can get for Vaughn or Eloy. If you find a really good deal, you pull the trigger and then re-sign Abreu. If not, then you have to let Abreu move on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeC Posted October 5, 2022 Share Posted October 5, 2022 I think signing Abreu and trading Eloy is my choice. Trade Eloy for a bona fide starter to 2Bman to a team that thinks they can keep him healthy. I am quite pessimistic on Eloy’s health. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChiSox59 Posted October 5, 2022 Share Posted October 5, 2022 8 minutes ago, JoeC said: I think signing Abreu and trading Eloy is my choice. Trade Eloy for a bona fide starter to 2Bman to a team that thinks they can keep him healthy. I am quite pessimistic on Eloy’s health. For a team dearth of power, trading the one guy with very real power, while also far from his peak value, seems like questionable decision making at best. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tnetennba Posted October 5, 2022 Share Posted October 5, 2022 If I’m choosing between Eloy or AV, I keep Eloy. What he’s done the 2nd half is really just scratching the surface IMO. He absolutely has to DH, and be reminded not to do stupid things that might hurt himself, but his bat still has the best chance to be special. Power hitting less athletic 1B are much easier to find. I’d rather keep both, but if I had to choose I’m keeping Eloy. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Highland Posted October 5, 2022 Share Posted October 5, 2022 10 hours ago, greg775 said: If Jose is a free agent I hope he stays in Chicago. Let him play 3 solid seasons for the Cubs if the Sox don't want him. He's not finished folks. I get madder and madder when I see people think it actually would help the Sox for him to leave. I love me some Abreu. I would like Abreu to stay, but Vaughn needs to be moved to first base. Normally Jose could stay as a DH, but the team is loaded with DHs. Either way, Jose would not stay with the Sox more than one season. Tough decision, but it has to be made. Do it now rather than later. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeC Posted October 5, 2022 Share Posted October 5, 2022 46 minutes ago, ChiSox59 said: For a team dearth of power, trading the one guy with very real power, while also far from his peak value, seems like questionable decision making at best. Depends on your assessment of his peak value, which, for me, is largely dependent on his ability to stay healthy. If another organization thinks they can keep him healthy and productive, you ask for high returns. I should also have added the caveat that I wouldn't do any trade if it didn't come with a guarantee of 2B being settled for the long term. The one encouraging thing to me about Eloy this year is his plate discipline. Compared to 2020. His chase rate has declined, his walk rate has increased, and his K rate has declined. His power is also back, in spite of the coaching staff's efforts. If you can package that productivity with an optimistic picture of his health, and get a return that plugs your 2B hole, you do that. Then your opening day lineup includes Abreu (DH), Vaughn (1B), Sheets / Pollock (LF) (ew), Actual 2Bman (2B), and Colas (RF). High risk high reward, but you can't make chicken soup out of chicken s%*#. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShoeLessRob Posted October 5, 2022 Share Posted October 5, 2022 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reiks12 Posted October 5, 2022 Share Posted October 5, 2022 10 hours ago, South Side Hit Men said: Not the same. Not close. Jose averaged nearly double the WAR of Pauly, and absolutely crushes him in the leadup to a "final contract". Konerko 2013 .669 OPS & -1.3 bWAR. 12/4/13 1 Year Deal. 2014 .572 OPS, -0.7 bWAR Abreu 2022 .822 OPS & 4.2 bWAR White Sox Average Annual bWAR: Abreu 3.54 vs. Konerko 1.83 True. Konerko's 36 season was a good one. If it makes sense for the club I am all for it. Have another team offer an interesting deal for Vaughn and I would like the trade if they resign Abreu. If its "Jerry wants to sign Abreu because loyalty" then I will hate it. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Capital G Posted October 5, 2022 Share Posted October 5, 2022 I love Jose. He will retire a Sox. But based on how this teams is built he should not be here next year. AV at first. Eloy DH. Get a RF (or I guess wait for Colas). We can spend the Jose money on needs. Let him go to a contender and hopefully win something. I could see a team like the Rays signing him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted October 5, 2022 Share Posted October 5, 2022 At the end of the day, Jose Abreu should be back with the White Sox. I get that Vaughn is cheaper and younger. Here is the problem, you lose Abreu for nothing. If you sign Abreu and trade Vaughn, you maximize the values for both of them, and you use it to get you some sort of asset. Whether that is a RF, 2B, or SP, the market will figure that part out. Realistically, the end of Vaughns pre free agent years will also probably be past the Sox window of contention, so it isn't like we are going to gain anything big by having him in years 5 and 6 anyway. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Sacamano Posted October 5, 2022 Share Posted October 5, 2022 4 minutes ago, Capital G said: I love Jose. He will retire a Sox. But based on how this teams is built he should not be here next year. AV at first. Eloy DH. Get a RF (or I guess wait for Colas). We can spend the Jose money on needs. Let him go to a contender and hopefully win something. I could see a team like the Rays signing him. Do both. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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