southsider2k5 Posted October 26, 2022 Share Posted October 26, 2022 https://theathletic.com/3730024/2022/10/26/white-sox-learn-from-injury-filled-season/?source=dailyemail&campaign=601983&redirected=1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chicago White Sox Posted October 26, 2022 Share Posted October 26, 2022 Sure seems like we need to make some changes with our training staff Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joejoesox Posted October 26, 2022 Share Posted October 26, 2022 (edited) edit: misread post Edited October 26, 2022 by joejoesox Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lip Man 1 Posted October 26, 2022 Share Posted October 26, 2022 (edited) 35 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said: Sure seems like we need to make some changes with our training staff They have gone through three trainers in the past few years (Herm, Ball now Kirk) and a few strength and conditioning people (Thomas, Torborg and the new guy). I think the problem is actually deeper than just the person in charge but more of the overall philosophy towards training, conditioning, nutrition, sleep schedules etc. I was given a quote that "The Sox play checkers when other teams are playing chess" in these matters. And remember last fall Hahn announced the Sox were going to conduct a study to try to get a handle on why all the injuries. Those results were never made public so no one knows what that study concluded. Alan Thomas quit or was fired depending on who you talk to because he disagreed with those results. His feeling was all the Sox injuries were directly related to COVID and the limitations that imposed. That may be true however the Sox were dealing with serious injuries at both the major and minor league levels before 2020 as well. Edited October 26, 2022 by Lip Man 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joejoesox Posted October 26, 2022 Share Posted October 26, 2022 5 minutes ago, Lip Man 1 said: They have gone through three trainers in the past few years (Herm, Ball now Kirk) and a few strength and conditioning people (Thomas, Torborg and the new guy). I think the problem is actually deeper than just the person in charge but more of the overall philosophy towards training, conditioning, nutrition, sleep schedules etc. I was given a quote that "The Sox play checkers when other teams are playing chess" in these matters. that's exactly what the problem is 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shago Posted October 26, 2022 Share Posted October 26, 2022 Excuses are like .............. Good front offices / ownership make trades, acquire talent, to make-up for injuries when they are in the hunt, which given our division we were ... ours did nothing, because they suck 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChiSox59 Posted October 26, 2022 Share Posted October 26, 2022 But I was told that repeatedly here that the Sox had a league average amount of injuries this year??????????????? 4 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greg775 Posted October 26, 2022 Share Posted October 26, 2022 Good thread. Next to acquiring talent, the medical staff is the most important part of a franchise. Sox need to wake up and get to the top of the chain in regards to trainers/doctors. Injuries basically sabotaged this rebuild. It's ridiculous to have injuries all through the roster. It seems like ol' Jose is the only guy who never gets hurt. Look at the Sox, Grandal (hurt), Moncada (hurt), Timmy (hurt), Harrison (also missed time), Jose (healthy), Eloy (hurt), Robert (hurt), Eaton (hurt), Vaughn n Sheets (healthy), Leury (didn't he miss some time as well), pitchers, some of 'em hurt or missed time. Liam (healthy). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
South Side Hit Men Posted October 26, 2022 Share Posted October 26, 2022 (edited) 3 hours ago, greg775 said: Good thread. Next to acquiring talent, the medical staff is the most important part of a franchise. Sox need to wake up and get to the top of the chain in regards to trainers/doctors. Injuries basically sabotaged this rebuild. It's ridiculous to have injuries all through the roster. It seems like ol' Jose is the only guy who never gets hurt. Look at the Sox, Grandal (hurt), Moncada (hurt), Timmy (hurt), Harrison (also missed time), Jose (healthy), Eloy (hurt), Robert (hurt), Eaton (hurt), Vaughn n Sheets (healthy), Leury (didn't he miss some time as well), pitchers, some of 'em hurt or missed time. Liam (healthy). The few years I've been here, people have been staying a healthy (insert core guys except Abreu) will bump up their WAR to the 4-6 range if they "stay healthy". These players can improve, but they should not be expected to significantly increase their availability or WAR production per game. White Sox Players - % Games Played 2019-2022 (545 available games 2019-2022; 384 2020-2022) (# seasons / Average bWAR) 96.9% Abreu (4 / 3.2) 80.6% Vaughn (2 / 0.0) 79.3% Moncada (4 / 2.7) 68.6% Anderson (4 / 3.2) 62.0% Grandal (3 / 1.0) 58.0% Jimenez (4 / 1.3) 57.8% Robert (3 / 2.5) Edited October 26, 2022 by South Side Hit Men 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted October 27, 2022 Share Posted October 27, 2022 I did find one way to get some of this data despite the BP Paywall, the Sun-Times gave an update on this at the end of August that included the rankings and WAR lost by the Cubs and Sox. https://chicago.suntimes.com/2022/8/27/23319923/white-sox-cubs-injuries-impact-war The difference between 4th most WAR lost (Sox) and 11th most WAR lost (Cubs) at that time was just over 1 WAR in the B-P counting. For their numbers, it looks like a middle-of-the-pack team lost about 5.75 WAR to injuries and the White Sox look to have been on pace to lose about 7. Cleveland was in fact one of the healthiest teams in baseball and that was a big advantage for them, but still only a portion of the advantage they had over the White Sox. When folks say the White Sox need to "Stay healthy", that requires projecting that the White Sox will be one of the healthiest teams in the league for it to make more than a minute difference. The White Sox really weren't that different from an average team. The difference between the White Sox and a team of average health looks to be 1.5 WAR. If we were talking about losing the division by 2 games, this would matter. The difference between the White Sox and Cleveland appears to be about 5, so if you want health to be a big factor next year then the White Sox need to be one of the healthiest teams in baseball, because according to B-R being average or even slightly above average on health isn't going to change much. I do note that the B-R metric seems to be very different from the mangameslost version on this, which I don't think is all that surprising as it's not straightforward to calculate WAR lost by injury if you're trying to factor in what would happen to rosters if guys didn't get hurt. In the B-R version, Tampa Bay lost the most WAR to injury due to Franco being out, they lost probably 8 WAR. Mangameslost has the Twins losing 10 and Houston losing 9 (McCullers, Verlander for a couple weeks, and Brantley, hmph this actually sounds somewhat believable). 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarava Posted October 27, 2022 Share Posted October 27, 2022 When you get to the point of telling your players to not run out expected outs, something is seriously off. The soft tissue injuries can point to out of shape players. I wonder if these guys are showing up to spring training in mid season shape, as you kind of need to do these days? This isn't the 60s where you work off the winter fat in spring training. It's hard or impossible for those of us on the outside to really know. I just have a part of me that wonders if some of these key players are really 'all-in' on being the best baseball players they can be? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chicago White Sox Posted October 27, 2022 Share Posted October 27, 2022 I don’t think we have an issue with guys being in shape other than maybe Eloy to some extent. Moncada & Robert legit look like NFL players. To me, it seems like a flexibility issue. Whether that’s off-season training or pre-game activity related I have not idea, but there is clearly something our players aren’t doing that other organizations are. The amount of hamstring injuries in particular is proof of that IMO. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tnetennba Posted October 27, 2022 Share Posted October 27, 2022 Really hoping finally having a normal winter & spring training will alleviate many of these soft tissue injuries, not just with the Sox but league wide. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted October 27, 2022 Author Share Posted October 27, 2022 2 hours ago, Chicago White Sox said: I don’t think we have an issue with guys being in shape other than maybe Eloy to some extent. Moncada & Robert legit look like NFL players. To me, it seems like a flexibility issue. Whether that’s off-season training or pre-game activity related I have not idea, but there is clearly something our players aren’t doing that other organizations are. The amount of hamstring injuries in particular is proof of that IMO. This. Both are insanely ripped. They might be in the wrong shape, but it isn't because of lack of work ethic. You don't just fall out of bed and look like that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted October 28, 2022 Share Posted October 28, 2022 Moncada got too muscle bound in the upper half and didn't spend nearly enough time on fast twitch muscles/legs/bottom half. I mean his sprint speeds this year were lower than Jake Burger after two Achilles' blow outs. How's that even possible? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted October 28, 2022 Author Share Posted October 28, 2022 25 minutes ago, caulfield12 said: Moncada got too muscle bound in the upper half and didn't spend nearly enough time on fast twitch muscles/legs/bottom half. I mean his sprint speeds this year were lower than Jake Burger after two Achilles' blow outs. How's that even possible? Most of the time he wasn't sprinting. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarava Posted October 28, 2022 Share Posted October 28, 2022 17 hours ago, southsider2k5 said: This. Both are insanely ripped. They might be in the wrong shape, but it isn't because of lack of work ethic. You don't just fall out of bed and look like that. I get that. But Steve Stone alluded to Moncada being lazy on several occasions. He's clearly in good body shape for a human being. But is he putting in the work to be a complete baseball player? My first post wasn't worded well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChiSox59 Posted October 28, 2022 Share Posted October 28, 2022 Hopefully the guy that is convinced Moncada is in awful shape doesn’t come across this thread. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bmags Posted October 28, 2022 Share Posted October 28, 2022 It really just seems like a free for all for the most part, and things like COVID and a lockout probably impact this team more than the ones that take control over more prescriptive tools and programs for the players to follow. Did not really have a positive view on how this group of players prepared for the year with the lockout in a year they were expected to compete for the championship. Except Cease ilysm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dominikk85 Posted November 1, 2022 Share Posted November 1, 2022 I think sports science basically hasn't made any progress in injury prevention. There are a lot of theories and methods but especially on the pitching side nothing has worked. Sometimes a team will have a period of 2-3 years with good health and people think they have the code cracked and then everyone gets injured in 3 months, I think that is more pure coincidence. Evidence for that is that even the smart teams like the dodgers and rays have tons of injuries, nobody has cracked the code. Sure there are factors like player age and injury history affecting injuries but there is really nothing yet that can be done that really works. Baseball really just is having depth and then also hoping for some luck in the injury department, every team loses players but you hope to be it on the lower side Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mmmmmbeeer Posted November 2, 2022 Share Posted November 2, 2022 On 11/1/2022 at 2:21 PM, Dominikk85 said: I think sports science basically hasn't made any progress in injury prevention. There are a lot of theories and methods but especially on the pitching side nothing has worked. Sometimes a team will have a period of 2-3 years with good health and people think they have the code cracked and then everyone gets injured in 3 months, I think that is more pure coincidence. Evidence for that is that even the smart teams like the dodgers and rays have tons of injuries, nobody has cracked the code. Sure there are factors like player age and injury history affecting injuries but there is really nothing yet that can be done that really works. Baseball really just is having depth and then also hoping for some luck in the injury department, every team loses players but you hope to be it on the lower side I don't know, man....Herm Schneider kept us one of the healthiest team in baseball on a pretty consistent basis. A guy who probably didn't pay much attention to the all the new science but spent 40 years honing his craft by learning which stretches were best, treatment effectiveness, etc. Every team is going to have injuries, that's unavoidable, but Herm's record is amazing. Especially when everyone and their brother were tearing their UCLs....Sox had limited instances under Hermie. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kitekrazy Posted November 3, 2022 Share Posted November 3, 2022 I find it a mystery with this new age of players getting hurt in baseball. I wonder what some of the modern greats before the turn of the century did in the offseason. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted November 4, 2022 Author Share Posted November 4, 2022 12 hours ago, kitekrazy said: I find it a mystery with this new age of players getting hurt in baseball. I wonder what some of the modern greats before the turn of the century did in the offseason. Baseball today is all 100% all of the time. Guys throw harder than ever, swing harder than ever, lift harder than ever, train harder than ever etc. The upside of not training in the offseason is your body does get to rest. So while the bigger/stronger/faster of today is real, so are repetitive stress injuries because of it. Ligaments and tendons can only support so much. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A-Train to 35th Posted November 4, 2022 Share Posted November 4, 2022 On 10/26/2022 at 3:35 PM, ChiSox59 said: But I was told that repeatedly here that the Sox had a league average amount of injuries this year??????????????? I can remember reading national reports that the Sox were 11th, which would put them slightly above average. I couldn't believe it at the time because we had lost and continued to lose, or play injured players all season. 4th sounded about right to me, not sure where 11th came from, but I read it somewhere besides SoxTalk. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A-Train to 35th Posted November 4, 2022 Share Posted November 4, 2022 On 11/2/2022 at 1:34 PM, mmmmmbeeer said: I don't know, man....Herm Schneider kept us one of the healthiest team in baseball on a pretty consistent basis. A guy who probably didn't pay much attention to the all the new science but spent 40 years honing his craft by learning which stretches were best, treatment effectiveness, etc. Every team is going to have injuries, that's unavoidable, but Herm's record is amazing. Especially when everyone and their brother were tearing their UCLs....Sox had limited instances under Hermie. Herm was constantly rubbing player's down. Most player's seemed more relaxed and not as muscular or tightly wound as today's players, there were exceptions in the 70's before the steroids took it to another level. Even today most player's are lean and muscle bound, look at Moncada for an example of someone tight as a drum. Here's hoping our new manager, and hitting coach can turn that muscle into more balls clearing the wall and this team could soar. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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