Sarava Posted December 2, 2022 Share Posted December 2, 2022 14 minutes ago, michelangelosmonkey said: Yes everyone agrees our contention winner is nearly over. Good grief...this board. 27 is when players hit their peak...there's zero chance that Vaughn, Robert, Sosa, Jiminez, Cease, Kopech, Yoan, Crochett will get better than they were in 2022. No reason to believe we will have a payroll above the 13th best. No reason to think Colas, Montgomery, Vera, Popeye, Schultz, Ramos will be any good. What is a contention winner? lol You've spun this conversation around since you lost the debate about Jerry's spending. I actually don't disagree if someone were to say the Sox could win the World Series if a bunch of things fall right. That doesn't mean the rebuild wasnt in a better position a couple years ago. Their time to really spend was several years ago. For example - IMO - signing Bryce Harper when he was a free agent and practically begging for a team to pay him, would have been a more impactful move than even signing Aaron Judge this winter would be. There would have been more benefit at the previous point in time, while you still had Giolito's prime, it was before Moncada's decline, etc. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chimpton Posted December 2, 2022 Share Posted December 2, 2022 12 minutes ago, michelangelosmonkey said: That's NOT what I'm saying...over and over again I have said that when they have a contention window for a number of years they have a top ten payroll. For forty years we have seen this pattern. You want to b**** about poor evaluation of major league talent or poor drafting...fine. But to whimper about the Sox not spending money is demonstrably wrong. Top ten payrolls in half of the last 16 years...2022, 2013, 2012, 2011, 2010, 2008, 2007, 2006 and by the way I suspect never in the top ten of attendance or tv revenues. If they have had top 10 payrolls in all those years, then someone in the front office (Hahn or Williams or both) needs sacking because they haven't actually produced top 10 baseball in those years and only appeared in the playoffs briefly in 3 of those years. 4 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarava Posted December 2, 2022 Share Posted December 2, 2022 19 minutes ago, michelangelosmonkey said: That's NOT what I'm saying...over and over again I have said that when they have a contention window for a number of years they have a top ten payroll. For forty years we have seen this pattern. You want to b**** about poor evaluation of major league talent or poor drafting...fine. But to whimper about the Sox not spending money is demonstrably wrong. Top ten payrolls in half of the last 16 years...2022, 2013, 2012, 2011, 2010, 2008, 2007, 2006 and by the way I suspect never in the top ten of attendance or tv revenues. It's a weird argument you're making. In that, if they had spent more money in some of those years, they would have been more contenders. So you're using their lack of effort to contend as an excuse to not spend, so they can contend. It's a big circle jerk. And honestly, which big market owners are so frugile? New York, SF, LA and Chicago are the big 4 cities where owners should be top 10 or damn close every year. Is Jerry a bigger spender than any of those owners? Those are the teams he should be spending neck and neck with - the Dodgers, Giants, Angels, Mets, Yankees and Cubs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michelangelosmonkey Posted December 2, 2022 Share Posted December 2, 2022 2 minutes ago, Sarava said: What is a contention winner? lol You've spun this conversation around since you lost the debate about Jerry's spending. I actually don't disagree if someone were to say the Sox could win the World Series if a bunch of things fall right. That doesn't mean the rebuild wasnt in a better position a couple years ago. Their time to really spend was several years ago. For example - IMO - signing Bryce Harper when he was a free agent and practically begging for a team to pay him, would have been a more impactful move than even signing Aaron Judge this winter would be. There would have been more benefit at the previous point in time, while you still had Giolito's prime, it was before Moncada's decline, etc. Seriously...are you twelve years old? I lost the debate because all the evidence was on my side? 2019 was the year to spend big? That 2018 with the stocked rotation of Shields, injured Dylan Cease, Gio with the worst ERA in baseball, Dylan Covey and Reylo? The year after our outfield was Delmonico, Engel and Avisail? Matt Davidson our DH? Yoan was our 2b coming off a .700 OPS year with bad defense? Yolmer was our 3b? That team was no where near ready to cook and that's when you want to push all the chips in...not now when we one of the top bullpens in baseball, one of the top rotations in baseball and a potential all star at 7 positions. Signing Judge makes us a top three WS favorite. Signing Harper in 2019 would have made us a serious wild card contender. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michelangelosmonkey Posted December 2, 2022 Share Posted December 2, 2022 9 minutes ago, Chimpton said: If they have had top 10 payrolls in all those years, then someone in the front office (Hahn or Williams or both) needs sacking because they haven't actually produced top 10 baseball in those years and only appeared in the playoffs briefly in 3 of those years. Yes that's the fair complaint. But we did win a WS in that time...and spending big to try to repeat in a time when the team must have been banking money made sense. Swinging and missing in the Sale/Shields/Quintana/Abreu period was a muddled shot...Hahn took over in 2013 the last of the bigger payrolls...and honestly a team with four stars and a bunch of garbage (see Angels of the last few years) doesn't work. Hahn fairly quickly saw that and started the rebuild...I get the anger over the five year rebuild...and last year royally sucked...but most teams climbing the mountain have a year like that. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chimpton Posted December 2, 2022 Share Posted December 2, 2022 4 minutes ago, michelangelosmonkey said: Yes that's the fair complaint. But we did win a WS in that time...and spending big to try to repeat in a time when the team must have been banking money made sense. Swinging and missing in the Sale/Shields/Quintana/Abreu period was a muddled shot...Hahn took over in 2013 the last of the bigger payrolls...and honestly a team with four stars and a bunch of garbage (see Angels of the last few years) doesn't work. Hahn fairly quickly saw that and started the rebuild...I get the anger over the five year rebuild...and last year royally sucked...but most teams climbing the mountain have a year like that. Sorry to be pedantic but the WS was 2005 and your figures were from 2006, that is why I didn't include it. Either way someone has wasted a lot of money for precious little return! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michelangelosmonkey Posted December 2, 2022 Share Posted December 2, 2022 10 minutes ago, Sarava said: It's a weird argument you're making. In that, if they had spent more money in some of those years, they would have been more contenders. So you're using their lack of effort to contend as an excuse to not spend, so they can contend. It's a big circle jerk. And honestly, which big market owners are so frugile? New York, SF, LA and Chicago are the big 4 cities where owners should be top 10 or damn close every year. Is Jerry a bigger spender than any of those owners? Those are the teams he should be spending neck and neck with - the Dodgers, Giants, Angels, Mets, Yankees and Cubs. When did I say any of those things??? They were contenders and they spent big...80's 90's, 00's and tens. You can argue that we were poor at talent evaluation. I think with all the Hahn hate we ignore the fact that KW took over that 2000 team that was a young 95 win team and #1 farm system and left in 2013 a barren wasteland. As for the "big city" White Sox with an exciting young team (that played poorly) were 19th in attendance and 7th in payroll last year...and we slam the owner. Their TV and radio packages have been second rate as well. Honestly I think the Sox are idiots if they don't sign Judge. Chicago fans are front runners and will flood to GRF if the Sox are a hot topic. Adding Judge makes this lineup scary. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chetkincaid Posted December 2, 2022 Share Posted December 2, 2022 7 hours ago, Sleepy Harold said: I feel the Sox are more bologna sandwich than peanut butter and jelly. PBJ has a track record of dependability and performance. I’m thinking the White Sox are a “Wish” sandwich - two pieces of bread and you wish you had some meat to go between them. We all wish the owner would sign a big fish free agent. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarava Posted December 2, 2022 Share Posted December 2, 2022 21 minutes ago, michelangelosmonkey said: Seriously...are you twelve years old? I lost the debate because all the evidence was on my side? 2019 was the year to spend big? That 2018 with the stocked rotation of Shields, injured Dylan Cease, Gio with the worst ERA in baseball, Dylan Covey and Reylo? The year after our outfield was Delmonico, Engel and Avisail? Matt Davidson our DH? Yoan was our 2b coming off a .700 OPS year with bad defense? Yolmer was our 3b? That team was no where near ready to cook and that's when you want to push all the chips in...not now when we one of the top bullpens in baseball, one of the top rotations in baseball and a potential all star at 7 positions. Signing Judge makes us a top three WS favorite. Signing Harper in 2019 would have made us a serious wild card contender. Bryce Harper and Manny Machado were very young free agents (26 if I recall right) due to starting in the show at a young age. Yes that was absolutely the time to sign one of those guys to anchor this rebuild. You wouldn't have just had one of them for 2019. They would have been here in 20, 21, 22, and long after that. And everyone said it at the time - there wont be guys like them to sign in the years after that that were as young talented and there for the taking. They needed to pounce. They declined to make an offer for Harper, and lowballed Machado with an offer they knew he wouldn't accept. Congrats on being the only Sox fan to not understand this! 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michelangelosmonkey Posted December 2, 2022 Share Posted December 2, 2022 9 minutes ago, Chimpton said: Sorry to be pedantic but the WS was 2005 and your figures were from 2006, that is why I didn't include it. Either way someone has wasted a lot of money for precious little return! Yes that's pedantic...no one thought that 2005 team would win anything. It seemed like a rebuild year so no reason to spend big on payroll...and then they won and they paid big money for 7 years to try to regain that magic. So my point remains...when they think they are in a window they spend big. As for wasting money...at least in that 2006-2015 period yes. I think they were misled by that lightning in a bottle team and wasted resources on old bad players to regain it. This team is SO much better than any of those teams. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarava Posted December 2, 2022 Share Posted December 2, 2022 9 minutes ago, michelangelosmonkey said: When did I say any of those things??? They were contenders and they spent big...80's 90's, 00's and tens. You can argue that we were poor at talent evaluation. I think with all the Hahn hate we ignore the fact that KW took over that 2000 team that was a young 95 win team and #1 farm system and left in 2013 a barren wasteland. As for the "big city" White Sox with an exciting young team (that played poorly) were 19th in attendance and 7th in payroll last year...and we slam the owner. Their TV and radio packages have been second rate as well. Honestly I think the Sox are idiots if they don't sign Judge. Chicago fans are front runners and will flood to GRF if the Sox are a hot topic. Adding Judge makes this lineup scary. Hey, I would love Judge being signed. It's not my money . But they wont do it. Reinsdorf is risk-averse, and Aaron judge carries massive risk. He's not going to give 300 mil to a soon to be 31 year old with a big body (big body's tend to break down faster). 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michelangelosmonkey Posted December 2, 2022 Share Posted December 2, 2022 1 minute ago, Sarava said: Bryce Harper and Manny Machado were very young free agents (26 if I recall right) due to starting in the show at a young age. Yes that was absolutely the time to sign one of those guys to anchor this rebuild. You wouldn't have just had one of them for 2019. They would have been here in 20, 21, 22, and long after that. And everyone said it at the time - there wont be guys like them to sign in the years after that that were as young talented and there for the taking. They needed to pounce. They declined to make an offer for Harper, and lowballed Machado with an offer they knew he wouldn't accept. Congrats on being the only Sox fan to not understand this! I mean yes...I appreciate not being part of the chorus of dunces. If you don't think the White Sox made really, really, really serious attempts at signing Machado and Wheeler I just can't help you. If you really think the White Sox signed Machado's brother in law and his best friend while Machado was contemplating which team to sign with only as a ploy to fool White Sox fans into false hope?? By all reports they offered Wheeler more money than anyone. In 2019 they tried finesse and money, in 2020 they tried brute force. Neither worked...players chose places they considered more glamorous. Congratulations on being part of the majority that hates their favorite team. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chimpton Posted December 2, 2022 Share Posted December 2, 2022 13 minutes ago, michelangelosmonkey said: Yes that's pedantic...no one thought that 2005 team would win anything. It seemed like a rebuild year so no reason to spend big on payroll...and then they won and they paid big money for 7 years to try to regain that magic. So my point remains...when they think they are in a window they spend big. As for wasting money...at least in that 2006-2015 period yes. I think they were misled by that lightning in a bottle team and wasted resources on old bad players to regain it. This team is SO much better than any of those teams. Oh yes I agree this team has the potential to be really good if the players all match their potential or return to anywhere near their best, but equally it would be so typical if that is wasted because they won't spend on anything other than reclamation projects or cheap FAs to fill the obvious holes in the roster. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michelangelosmonkey Posted December 2, 2022 Share Posted December 2, 2022 7 minutes ago, Sarava said: Hey, I would love Judge being signed. It's not my money . But they wont do it. Reinsdorf is risk-averse, and Aaron judge carries massive risk. He's not going to give 300 mil to a soon to be 31 year old with a big body (big body's tend to break down faster). Yes but the point, it seems to me, of being part of a fan chat site is to have fun with it. If Hi8is starts a topic "Aaron Judge speculation" I thought...oh that's a fun concept to chew over...and then the first 20 post are SOX SUCK... SOX DON'T SPEND MONEY...this will never happen. What an idiot for even suggesting it. There was zero fun out of the first 20 posts. I'm fully on board with you that It is much riskier to sign Judge today than Harper four years ago because of the ages. But I think this team is in a perfect position now to hit it hard and 2019 they were half a dozen parts away. And again...2022 Abreu+Keuchel = 2023 Judge. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michelangelosmonkey Posted December 2, 2022 Share Posted December 2, 2022 9 minutes ago, Chimpton said: Oh yes I agree this team has the potential to be really good if the players all match their potential or return to anywhere near their best, but equally it would be so typical if that is wasted because they won't spend on anything other than reclamation projects or cheap FAs to fill the obvious holes in the roster. But I would argue with "typical"...they spent a lot of money last year to try to assemble the best relief core in baseball. I think it's fair to argue the plan was stupid (relievers are notoriously up and down) or that in retrospect it didn't work but you can't say they didn't spend hard and try. They also gave big contracts to Keuchel who was top 5 CY Young his first year with us and Grandal who was amazing in 2021 and amazingly bad last year. We need to get past the PTSD of Tony Larussa and the 2022 season. Lot to be excited about here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chimpton Posted December 2, 2022 Share Posted December 2, 2022 3 minutes ago, michelangelosmonkey said: But I would argue with "typical"...they spent a lot of money last year to try to assemble the best relief core in baseball. I think it's fair to argue the plan was stupid (relievers are notoriously up and down) or that in retrospect it didn't work but you can't say they didn't spend hard and try. They also gave big contracts to Keuchel who was top 5 CY Young his first year with us and Grandal who was amazing in 2021 and amazingly bad last year. We need to get past the PTSD of Tony Larussa and the 2022 season. Lot to be excited about here. They spent money but didn't fill the obvious holes at RF and 2b or the need for a left-handed bat, which is what I meant by someone in the FO is at fault if all this money is being spent and still no real success. Hopefully no TLR and a few rebounding players will mean a better season and winning the central but getting beyond the first round of the playoffs would need more than that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Texsox Posted December 2, 2022 Share Posted December 2, 2022 11 minutes ago, Chimpton said: They spent money but didn't fill the obvious holes at RF and 2b or the need for a left-handed bat, which is what I meant by someone in the FO is at fault if all this money is being spent and still no real success. Hopefully no TLR and a few rebounding players will mean a better season and winning the central but getting beyond the first round of the playoffs would need more than that. Are you suggesting that if they can't land a RF or 2b etc they shouldn't spend the money? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T R U Posted December 2, 2022 Share Posted December 2, 2022 1 hour ago, michelangelosmonkey said: I mean yes...I appreciate not being part of the chorus of dunces. If you don't think the White Sox made really, really, really serious attempts at signing Machado and Wheeler I just can't help you. If you really think the White Sox signed Machado's brother in law and his best friend while Machado was contemplating which team to sign with only as a ploy to fool White Sox fans into false hope?? By all reports they offered Wheeler more money than anyone. In 2019 they tried finesse and money, in 2020 they tried brute force. Neither worked...players chose places they considered more glamorous. Congratulations on being part of the majority that hates their favorite team. Wasn’t it already, pretty much, proven they made a really bad offer to Machado and didn’t even offer for Harper? 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chick Mercedes Posted December 2, 2022 Share Posted December 2, 2022 (edited) 7 hours ago, michelangelosmonkey said: Soxtalk has gotten so cringy. Every single post/poster seems to hate everything about the team. There are no optimism threads and any thread of interesting speculation is soon buried under an avalanche of “funny” hate. A troll on Soxtalk is someone that says something positive…but here goes…trolling. As I have pointed out frequently…in the 80’s, 90’s and 00’s when Sox were in a competitive window they were top five payroll. JR does not spend heavily in times of non-contention…which as a businessman makes sense. We are now clearly in a window of contention (yes last year was painful…look at Phillies of 2020/21). We spent $215 on payroll last year and top 5 was $240. This idea that we will only spend $180 is pretty much the same nonsense from a couple of years ago when we would never spend over $150. We have Keuchel $18.5 mill and Abreu $17 mill dropping off our books….they could basically take that money and sign Aaron Judge. Despite the reality that we have not signed any big fish it is clear that they were trying to land big fish with serious offers to Machado and Wheeler. Spotrac has us with $145 committed for 2023. So why not Aaron Judge? He’s got a career .980 OPS. He’s been a plus defender for most of his career. He’s an outfielder which is clearly our biggest need. He can even play a serviceable CF in a pinch ( as can Colas). An outfield of Judge/Colas/Robert could be elite offensively and defensively. It’s a single move that can restore faith, sell tickets and give JR a chance for that last ring. We have the budget, he fits a need lets blow up the world. If you want optimism, give specifics why based on what’s been happening, optimism is appropriate instead. Gaslighting a loyal fanbase thats been taken advantage of that lets off steam as a result is what’s cringy. Ok I’ll play along. This is fine. Edited December 2, 2022 by Chick Mercedes 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sleepy Harold Posted December 2, 2022 Share Posted December 2, 2022 Let's get this thread back on track with some more sandwich talk. 1 1 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chick Mercedes Posted December 2, 2022 Share Posted December 2, 2022 3 minutes ago, Sleepy Harold said: Let's get this thread back on track with some more sandwich talk. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oneofthemikes Posted December 2, 2022 Share Posted December 2, 2022 2 hours ago, chetkincaid said: I’m thinking the White Sox are a “Wish” sandwich - two pieces of bread and you wish you had some meat to go between them. We all wish the owner would sign a big fish free agent. BOW BOW BOW! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted December 2, 2022 Share Posted December 2, 2022 3 hours ago, michelangelosmonkey said: That's NOT what I'm saying...over and over again I have said that when they have a contention window for a number of years they have a top ten payroll. For forty years we have seen this pattern. You want to b**** about poor evaluation of major league talent or poor drafting...fine. But to whimper about the Sox not spending money is demonstrably wrong. Top ten payrolls in half of the last 16 years...2022, 2013, 2012, 2011, 2010, 2008, 2007, 2006 and by the way I suspect never in the top ten of attendance or tv revenues. Well that is wrong. The first year I looked up they had a top 10 attendance. The problem with using attendance and revenue is it is THEIR FAULT it is what it is. They are playing in the #3 market in the US, and their team is a redheaded stepchild even though it probably was given the easiest path to total domination when they split into 6 divisions and had the rest of the division some of the smallest revenue producing teams in the league. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wegner Posted December 2, 2022 Share Posted December 2, 2022 Slow news day?? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chicago White Sox Posted December 2, 2022 Share Posted December 2, 2022 3 hours ago, michelangelosmonkey said: 2011 White Sox had top 5 payroll, 2010 it was 7. In every decade in JR's ownership we've had a top 5 payroll. Sorry if I get exasperated by the non-stop, every thread, people bitching about ownerships cheapness. I only do it because it's not true...but don't let me interfere with the b**** fest. I will stop trolling. I don’t understand what you don’t get here. Jerry refuses to make the long-term commitments it takes to sign true impact talent. Whether he sports a large payroll or not is meaningless when he’s so god damn risk adverse. So even if the $180M payroll estimate is wrong, we won’t be signing someone like Aaron Judge to a record setting contract. Jerry had his chance to prove us all wrong when Machado & Harper were free agents and the typical big threats weren’t in the game. Instead, he lost out to the Padres & Phillies because he was afraid of having some bad payroll nine years in the future when he might not even be alive. That should tell you everything you need to know about Jerry. As for non-stopping bitching, I just posted my off-season plan that assumes a $185M and no star additions. And guess, I projected a 93 win season from that team. Just because we have one of the worst owners in sports and a GM who has yet to prove himself competent in nine years on the job doesn’t mean there isn’t talent on this roster. I want to believe in this group of players, but it’s very hard when you watch the GM make so many baffling moves and the owner insert his out-of-touch, lifeless BFF as manager. We were promised parades and instead have watched this organization quickly botch this window. So yeah, I think it’s pretty fair for Sox fans to be a pessimistic mood right now. 3 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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