Liam Hendriks coming up in trade discussions

[Balta1701]

1 minute ago, Chisoxfn said:

Honestly - I love Liam, but just like Gio and moving him if the package was right, I have zero problems with this deal. I go back to - we can all complain about JR and Hahn and all of those complaints are real.

But if they are working with 180M or 190 or whatever it is with the holes they have - they are going to have to get more creative because you can't just do RH speak and say well it is what it is so we are rolling the dice. If those are the paremeters you have been given, that is more than enough to win in this league and you got to go do it. No excuses.

I kind of go back to - if those are the orders, than you got to create flexibility so you can add the parts that aren't there and probably at certain points maybe package another contract with a marketable guy to create even more of it. For example - if you have a $180M payroll floor, I don't see how you can justify keeping Yoan around, even if it means selling "low" on him - you need the payroll flexibility. If you can package him with a Gio or Hendricks than you might have to assess it and deal with the reality of a slightly different return or different ways.  

You might need to do the same with a Joe Kelly, unless of course you like the value you have with him as a bounce back (which I can respect).  But if you need to - package Kelly with Giolito (especially if you are sending him to a bigger market club).  

I could actually understand doing this and clearing contracts.

But plain and simple the White Sox are not competing next year if Jake Burger is their starting 3b. I don’t care if they have an extra $25 million to use in free agency from this trade and they sign Rodon. This is not an upgrade to the roster, there is no combination of starting pitcher and 3b you will sign for $30 million that fixes you as good of a chance at competing next year as Moncada and Giolito.

If you want to clear out Moncada and Grandal and use other big league assets to make it happen, you’re rebuilding again. Trade Cease too. Play Burger, sign a couple more starters who were injured last year, look for guys you can move at the deadline.

[shago]

58 minutes ago, Baron said:

Start doing a better job of convincing Jerry to raise the budget

I don't know why our fanbase can't comprehend that Jerry Reinsdorf does not have the liquidity to simply raise the budget. He is a paper billionaire, whose wealth is derived from the fact that he used other people's money to buy two sports teams incredibly well. Unlike the Mets, Phillies, Dodgers, etc. we are not backed by some billionaire who made money elsewhere and decided to buy a team. Jerry runs the Sox like a business for his partners, period. If he happens to win, great, he loves the Sox and would love to win, but he's not a cash machine. Until he sells to someone who is, this is how the organization will operate, just as it has since he bought it.

[Jose Abreu]

4 minutes ago, Dick Allen said:

And he said it’s been torn for years, which means there is probably no way his contract is insured.

For 15 years, in fact, so I wonder how risky it really is

[Dick Allen]

Just now, Jose Abreu said:

For 15 years, in fact, so I wonder how risky it really is

There’s risk. He missed time last year. So something changed. He usually wore a sleeve on his elbow when he warmed up in the bullpen, but always took it off before he got into the game. 

[Texsox]

29 minutes ago, shago said:

I don't know why our fanbase can't comprehend that Jerry Reinsdorf does not have the liquidity to simply raise the budget. He is a paper billionaire, whose wealth is derived from the fact that he used other people's money to buy two sports teams incredibly well. Unlike the Mets, Phillies, Dodgers, etc. we are not backed by some billionaire who made money elsewhere and decided to buy a team. Jerry runs the Sox like a business for his partners, period. If he happens to win, great, he loves the Sox and would love to win, but he's not a cash machine. Until he sells to someone who is, this is how the organization will operate, just as it has since he bought it.

How large of a payroll do you believe they can cover with existing revenue? 

 

[LittleHurtCG]

17 hours ago, Tony said:

Aaron Judge, Cody Bellinger, Michael Brantley, Joey Gallo, Kevin Kiermaier, Andrew Benintendi, Brandon Nimmo and a slew of others are all available. The Sox could have plenty of OF's if they wanted them. Trading their closer to fill that hole is only necessary if you aren't willing to spend money. 

Stop justifying things that shouldn't be justified. 

This times 1000. The Sox are going to need a legit closer if they want to win anything significant. Trading Hendricks is dumb. 

[shago]

4 minutes ago, Texsox said:

How large of a payroll do you believe they can cover with existing revenue? 

Unfortunately, pure speculation of course, but if you believe what Google tells you, they had an operating loss of roughly $10M in 2021, but that doesn't factor-in all their income, so have to imagine it's pretty close to fully loaded. That's a total guess by this moron...

[LittleHurtCG]

1 hour ago, southsider2k5 said:

Yoan is pretty much the canary in the coal mine here.  Of all of the players we need recovery from, he is the one that may well show up as an indicator as to how good this managerial team is.

How long of a timeline do you give the new coaching staff to fix all the Sox broken players? 

[Chisoxfn]

39 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

I could actually understand doing this and clearing contracts.

But plain and simple the White Sox are not competing next year if Jake Burger is their starting 3b. I don’t care if they have an extra $25 million to use in free agency from this trade and they sign Rodon. This is not an upgrade to the roster, there is no combination of starting pitcher and 3b you will sign for $30 million that fixes you as good of a chance at competing next year as Moncada and Giolito.

If you want to clear out Moncada and Grandal and use other big league assets to make it happen, you’re rebuilding again. Trade Cease too. Play Burger, sign a couple more starters who were injured last year, look for guys you can move at the deadline.

I don't disagree with most of this - it goes back to - if you can clear all that out and get some parts to help, but than you actually also have to sign players in current free agency. Essentially you are just shifting the risks in spots of how you are going to do it and you are accepting that.   I don't know what those trades free up in capacity - and I'm not implying you can move Grandal (so I'll seperate him for now - if you could do it).  

But if you move Giolito, Hendricks, Moncada and Kelly - you are creating 50-60M in capacity.  I don't know what in terms of immediate major league talent (vs. whatever types of prospects - which theortically you can use to flip to buy something else - and I won't even get into the debate of what sort of talent they get back).  

But imagine you are trading those 4 guys and maybe you are filling 1-2 hole on ML roster with what you get back, you have also created a lot of capacity to do things, both via free agency and other means. Do you than say, we are going to go ReyLo at closer (a clear downgrade to Hendricks, but you can do it) - you can than assess what you do with your infield. I don't think you go Burger - but maybe you decide you are going cheap at 3B and upgrading all across the outfield and others, I don't know. 

To your point - you could also do a mini refresh too.  And someone hold me honest cause I didn't look up contracts so I don't know if the above is accurate (maybe it is too high).  

 

[LittleHurtCG]

51 minutes ago, Chisoxfn said:

Honestly - I love Liam, but just like Gio and moving him if the package was right, I have zero problems with this deal. I go back to - we can all complain about JR and Hahn and all of those complaints are real.

But if they are working with 180M or 190 or whatever it is with the holes they have - they are going to have to get more creative because you can't just do RH speak and say well it is what it is so we are rolling the dice. If those are the paremeters you have been given, that is more than enough to win in this league and you got to go do it. No excuses.

I kind of go back to - if those are the orders, than you got to create flexibility so you can add the parts that aren't there and probably at certain points maybe package another contract with a marketable guy to create even more of it. For example - if you have a $180M payroll floor, I don't see how you can justify keeping Yoan around, even if it means selling "low" on him - you need the payroll flexibility. If you can package him with a Gio or Hendricks than you might have to assess it and deal with the reality of a slightly different return or different ways.  

You might need to do the same with a Joe Kelly, unless of course you like the value you have with him as a bounce back (which I can respect).  But if you need to - package Kelly with Giolito (especially if you are sending him to a bigger market club).  

This FO can't get creative. They don't have the talent or skills to do that.  They can and will RH speak all day long. They have been doing it for almost a decade now. 

[Texsox]

Moving the hole from second to third. At least it would be something new to complain about 

[Chisoxfn]

1 minute ago, LittleHurtCG said:

This FO can't get creative. They don't have the talent or skills to do that.  They can and will RH speak all day long. They have been doing it for almost a decade now. 

Sign all the relievers....put all the 1B/DH in corner outfield positions.  Oh they can get creative....it just isn't smart creativity haha.  

[LittleHurtCG]

11 minutes ago, shago said:

Unfortunately, pure speculation of course, but if you believe what Google tells you, they had an operating loss of roughly $10M in 2021, but that doesn't factor-in all their income, so have to imagine it's pretty close to fully loaded. That's a total guess by this moron...

Didn't all the MLB teams just get a bunch of Disney $? 

JR and company can the raise the budget and make it work if they really wanted to. Billinoiaires always seem to find a way. 

[Chisoxfn]

Just now, LittleHurtCG said:

Didn't all the MLB teams just get a bunch of Disney $? 

JR and company can the raise the budget and make it work if they really wanted to. Billinoiaires always seem to find a way. 

Its back to - sometimes things don't work out - but if you knew the factors they should have done so much better. But even than - sometimes when things don't work out - it means you have to spend a bit more, if you truly intend to contend or you have to get way more creative. Doing nothing...well often times that is the absolute worst strategy (not that we should be surprised cause that largely has been what the club has done.  

[LittleHurtCG]

1 minute ago, Chisoxfn said:

Its back to - sometimes things don't work out - but if you knew the factors they should have done so much better. But even than - sometimes when things don't work out - it means you have to spend a bit more, if you truly intend to contend or you have to get way more creative. Doing nothing...well often times that is the absolute worst strategy (not that we should be surprised cause that largely has been what the club has done.  

I agree 100%. There is no incentive for the FO to do anything creative. There is no fear of losing their jobs. They can and will do nothing. 

[Balta1701]

7 minutes ago, Chisoxfn said:

I don't disagree with most of this - it goes back to - if you can clear all that out and get some parts to help, but than you actually also have to sign players in current free agency. Essentially you are just shifting the risks in spots of how you are going to do it and you are accepting that.   I don't know what those trades free up in capacity - and I'm not implying you can move Grandal (so I'll seperate him for now - if you could do it).  

But if you move Giolito, Hendricks, Moncada and Kelly - you are creating 50-60M in capacity.  I don't know what in terms of immediate major league talent (vs. whatever types of prospects - which theortically you can use to flip to buy something else - and I won't even get into the debate of what sort of talent they get back).  

But imagine you are trading those 4 guys and maybe you are filling 1-2 hole on ML roster with what you get back, you have also created a lot of capacity to do things, both via free agency and other means. Do you than say, we are going to go ReyLo at closer (a clear downgrade to Hendricks, but you can do it) - you can than assess what you do with your infield. I don't think you go Burger - but maybe you decide you are going cheap at 3B and upgrading all across the outfield and others, I don't know. 

To your point - you could also do a mini refresh too.  And someone hold me honest cause I didn't look up contracts so I don't know if the above is accurate (maybe it is too high).  

 

If you're using Hendriks and Giolito as valuable pieces to get someone to absorb the negative contracts of Moncada and Kelly, you are getting 0 big league pieces back. Frankly, Kelly and Moncada are negative enough and expensive enough that I could certainly see the White Sox having to include more value to move them, either some cash or an additional player. Now at the very least they need 3 pieces in addition to the outfield, because they don't have enough bullpen depth, Jake Burger is not a 3b, and they need a starting pitcher.

You have $50 million to play with, but you have 4 or 5 position needs. Especially now that bad relievers are up to $7-$8 million, you've cleared space for Quintana, Gallo, maybe a Brandon Drury or an old Evan Longoria at 3b, and some unnamed reliever for depth there.

I don't think we've made this roster better. 

[spiderman]

1 hour ago, Balta1701 said:

Because this (dumb) idea is not that trading Hendriks is a path to rebuilding, the idea is that it’s a path to helping compete in 2023. You fill a hole for 2023 and free up money that can be used to fill the other hole.

If their budget is fully tapped out already,  trading Hendriks for someone who doesn’t contribute this year leaves them with a weakened bullpen and the same holes in the OF and lineup. It’s an even worse setup than the already bad move of trying to fill an OF spot with a rookie from the Hendriks trade and having money for one more signing.

I don't think they would be trading Hendriks to rebuild, more address positions of need. Trading Hendriks for younger players, regardless of position, would also free up money to address 2B or OF if they don't address that in a trade.

Trading Hendriks when they are trying to compete this year is a mixed message. Yes, they can probably give the closer job to somebody else in the bullpen and survive, but they have made the bullpen a high priority each off-season, probably in part, to account/supplement the starting rotation.

It's frustrating as a fan to see the team having to deal from strength to address other holes rather than just spending money. I just don't think it makes much sense, and the (dumb) idea of trading for unproven players to fill needs rather than acquire the best talent will satisfy the actual roster deficency's also. If the team they are talking with has a 2B who helps the club great. If the team has a SP who they can get, why not address that? It's still probably a need given the rotation.

Hell, the Cubs are supposedly looking to sign 2 SS and move one of them to 3B. If you're limited by payroll, then be creative. This team needs more talent. Don't settle.

 

[bmags]

The phillies didn't figure out their closer until the playoffs.

They are awesome to have, don't get me wrong. But, if I was going to give something for hahn to chase at all costs, it would be closer. Twice now in a rebuild that guy has gotten his closer and thought he had his job done. You gotta deny him it. Let him squirm.

[Balta1701]

1 minute ago, bmags said:

The phillies didn't figure out their closer until the playoffs.

They are awesome to have, don't get me wrong. But, if I was going to give something for hahn to chase at all costs, it would be closer. Twice now in a rebuild that guy has gotten his closer and thought he had his job done. You gotta deny him it. Let him squirm.

Yeah, Rick Hahn making deadline trades for closers is a great idea...

[bmags]

Wish I would have quoted that last post, it appears an hour or so past since what I responded to and can't even find it.

[bmags]

3 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

Yeah, Rick Hahn making deadline trades for closers is a great idea...

Yeah, exactly. He was able to add a closer and get approval for added payroll at the deadline. Thanks, good call.

[Balta1701]

1 minute ago, bmags said:

Yeah, exactly. He was able to add a closer and get approval for added payroll at the deadline. Thanks, good call.

And forgot to look at the "BABIP" line on baseball-reference before doing so, but eh. 

[he gone.]

37 minutes ago, Texsox said:

Moving the hole from second to third. At least it would be something new to complain about 

haha. that's not what i said. I said i'd be open to exploring 3rd base as well. Vargas is a 3rd baseman/OF. He's not necessarily known for his fielding and has bounced around 1b, 2b, 3b, LF. he kind of feels like burger as a quick comparison but admittedly dont know very much about his defensive grading. I'm just saying if you have 3 options on the table for liam and one of the options is a Jung or a Vargas I wouldn't discount it on the account of Yoan who in all likelihood is only here for a few more years, is expensive, has experience at 2B, and hasn't performed up to standards. If you find a return that makes the team better to where yoan has to slide over, I'd consider it. I'ts really not that controversial. 

[Texsox]

1 minute ago, he gone. said:

haha. that's not what i said. I said i'd be open to exploring 3rd base as well. Vargas is a 3rd baseman/OF. He's not necessarily known for his fielding and has bounced around 1b, 2b, 3b, LF. he kind of feels like burger as a quick comparison but admittedly dont know very much about his defensive grading. I'm just saying if you have 3 options on the table for liam and one of the options is a Jung or a Vargas I wouldn't discount it on the account of Yoan who in all likelihood is only here for a few more years, is expensive, has experience at 2B, and hasn't performed up to standards. If you find a return that makes the team better to where yoan has to slide over, I'd consider it. I'ts really not that controversial. 

I don't think I was replying to you. Lol the thread was moving fast. 

[MiddleCoastBias]

1 hour ago, Texsox said:

Moving the hole from second to third. At least it would be something new to complain about 

"New" as if we weren't complaining about 3B for eleven consecutive years between Crede leaving and Moncada taking over.

How quickly everyone forgets how big of a headache it was to find someone competent to replace the carousel of crap we trotted out there year after year. I'm in no rush to repeat that.