Yoan Moncada vs. Gordon Beckham - first 650 games

[MiddleCoastBias]

2 hours ago, bmags said:

I remember something different maybe. I think there was a projected "best players of the 2010s" after Gordon's first season where he came up in July and was absolutely on fire. every at bat was a double. He tailed off at the end, and it turned out, permanently.

That very well could have been true as well. If you're going to make the claim that someone will make the Hall of Fame, you're probably going to keep it going for a while.

The draft night thing was him making the claim that of anyone drafted in the top half of that night, Beckham was going to be the best player to come out and had the best chance of being a HOFer.

[caulfield12]

This is dumb.

Gordon was never a former #1 prospect in all of MiLB, although he was once famously compared to Derek Jeter (by himself).

He also never came close again to his first 4 1/2 months of production in his rookie year.

 

Moncada had a number of years of 3-4 fWAR, most famously 2019, his best season.  Beckham peaked in his rookie season and went steadily downhill from that point in time.

Beckham was All-American, Golden Spikes, etc., but nothing close to Moncada in terms of projected impact.  More like Vaughn at 1B as a comp with his collegiate career, maybe a notch or two behind Andrew.

 

One career of Beckham probably doesn't equate to Moncada's 2023 and 2024 salaries.

 

Edited March 24, 2023 by caulfield12

[soulfly]

7 hours ago, bmags said:

I remember something different maybe. I think there was a projected "best players of the 2010s" after Gordon's first season where he came up in July and was absolutely on fire. every at bat was a double. He tailed off at the end, and it turned out, permanently.

Yes, this is what I was referring to.

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

On 3/22/2023 at 8:40 AM, he gone. said:

I'm definitely tough on Yo Yo. I think it's like anything else, it's based on expectations and glimpses of talent and weighted against the poor stretches and his seemingly "I dont care attitude". End of the day, even though I'm hard on Yo Yo, it wasn't him who gave himself that contract, it was the White Sox. I'm glad he got money, good for him. I also think he's a solid player and part of a Championship type roster. He's just never going to be the "it" guy on the roster or the reason we win a WS. That's okay. It's definitely okay at $10mm a year, but definitely not okay at his current or next years cost. 

Ideally what I'd love to see out of him is a strong effort in the field, running out balls, and working counts again. I've long called him Joe Crede type guy and stand by that. Not on a 1:1 comparison, but in terms of a guy who has the talent in stretches, plays solid D, and can be a fringy 2-3 All-Star. He's not the problem on the team, far from it, but he's also not the guy we hoped he would be either. 

The best thing that ever happened to Moncada was the bouncy ball year of 2019. Thats how he got the big extension.

If the Sox had been more in tune what was happening in the rest of baseball that year with so many guys putting up career type years and HR's they might not have been so quick to give him a big payday. That's just another in a long line of FO blunders.  Keep tracks of those things. Any very keen observer of the game especially those in paid positions to spend money absolutely need to recognize these things. Anyone seeing all of this happening in 2019 and staying in touch with the rumors about the ball might come to the conclusion that something was going to be done about the ball and held off on offering big extensions.

Anyone who actually refers to Yoans 2019 as a level of talent that he can return to has their head up there asses 4 years later. You'd have a better chance hoping for the return of the bouncy ball than Yoan ever repeating that year.

[Greg Hibbard]

18 hours ago, caulfield12 said:

This is dumb.

Gordon was never a former #1 prospect in all of MiLB, although he was once famously compared to Derek Jeter (by himself).

He also never came close again to his first 4 1/2 months of production in his rookie year.

 

Moncada had a number of years of 3-4 fWAR, most famously 2019, his best season.  Beckham peaked in his rookie season and went steadily downhill from that point in time.

Beckham was All-American, Golden Spikes, etc., but nothing close to Moncada in terms of projected impact.  More like Vaughn at 1B as a comp with his collegiate career, maybe a notch or two behind Andrew.

 

One career of Beckham probably doesn't equate to Moncada's 2023 and 2024 salaries.

 

Ok. For his 2023 and 2024 salary, what is an acceptable expected WAR per 162 for Yoan Moncada?

[Greg Hibbard]

More than anything, I just want this board to admit that the goal posts just never stop moving for Moncada compared to other players.

Many want Eloy to stop playing his natural position at all so he can stay healthy, take a zero or negative number with defense, but Moncada can play the best defense of anyone on the team but it’s not enough because…well, I’m not sure why.

Many are willing to gloss over TA’s lack of OBA, injury history, defensive lapses, off the field issues while holding Moncada to an impossible standard of “looking like he isn’t wincing” or not doing music videos or whatever.

I bring up in this thread that Moncada has actually played 82% of his games since 2018 and that’s not really enough because…. we can cherry pick a list of starters who have played 90%+? or he’s “soft” because we don’t like his facial expressions or amount of the time he’s spent on the ground after a collision, or that his effort isn’t completely there for some people when he’s in the game despite his career numbers?

where are the goalposts, folks? He had a bad year. 104 games coming off an injury and long COVID is not a sample size to descredit the preceding 530 games where he has proven himself, 25 year olds who play at this level don’t suddenly go downhill at that age. I predict a big year, personally.

but what are the goalposts? 6 WAR or he’s a bust? How many players in baseball do 6 WAR a year?

Like it or not, remember it or not, Beckham was very highly touted, did have tremendous support in the organization and fanbase and I recall him having a very long leash. 

Moncada had long COVID, one bad year, and people want him to be a bench player. It’s unbelievable frankly. 

 

Edited March 24, 2023 by Greg Hibbard

[Jack Parkman]

32 minutes ago, Greg Hibbard said:

More than anything, I just want this board to admit that the goal posts just never stop moving for Moncada compared to other players.

Many want Eloy to stop playing his natural position at all so he can stay healthy, take a zero or negative number with defense, but Moncada can play the best defense of anyone on the team but it’s not enough because…well, I’m not sure why.

Many are willing to gloss over TA’s lack of OBA, injury history, defensive lapses, off the field issues while holding Moncada to an impossible standard of “looking like he isn’t wincing” or not doing music videos or whatever.

I bring up in this thread that Moncada has actually played 82% of his games since 2018 and that’s not really enough because…. we can cherry pick a list of starters who have played 90%+? or he’s “soft” because we don’t like his facial expressions or amount of the time he’s spent on the ground after a collision, or that his effort isn’t completely there for some people when he’s in the game despite his career numbers?

where are the goalposts, folks? He had a bad year. 104 games coming off an injury and long COVID is not a sample size to descredit the preceding 530 games where he has proven himself, 25 year olds who play at this level don’t suddenly go downhill at that age. I predict a big year, personally.

but what are the goalposts? 6 WAR or he’s a bust? How many players in baseball do 6 WAR a year?

Like it or not, remember it or not, Beckham was very highly touted, did have tremendous support in the organization and fanbase and I recall him having a very long leash. 

Moncada had long COVID, one bad year, and people want him to be a bench player. It’s unbelievable frankly. 

 

Moncada is a good player most of the time, his swing and miss issues make him volatile from season to season. I don't blame him for 2020 as long covid is a very real thing. 

I believe he was battling something last year but if you average out the last 4 years he's a 3.2 WAR player and that's fine, even if it isn't worth 25M in 2025. 

He's a good player, but again everyone holds it against him because he was the #1 prospect in baseball and isn't Jose Ramirez. 

You going to hold it against Benintendi too? He was the #1 prospect in baseball as well. 

 

There's nothing that he can do to make a segment of this fanbase happy other than to suddenly start becoming Jose Ramirez. I thought he'd be that good too, I'm disappointed as well, but you can acknowledge he's still a solid regular. 

Edited March 24, 2023 by Jack Parkman

[Snopek]

29 minutes ago, Greg Hibbard said:

More than anything, I just want this board to admit that the goal posts just never stop moving for Moncada compared to other players.

Many want Eloy to stop playing his natural position at all so he can stay healthy, take a zero or negative number with defense, but Moncada can play the best defense of anyone on the team but it’s not enough because…well, I’m not sure why.

Many are willing to gloss over TA’s lack of OBA, injury history, defensive lapses, off the field issues while holding Moncada to an impossible standard of “looking like he isn’t wincing” or not doing music videos or whatever.

I bring up in this thread that Moncada has actually played 82% of his games since 2018 and that’s not really enough because…. we can cherry pick a list of starters who have played 90%+? or he’s “soft” because we don’t like his facial expressions or amount of the time he’s spent on the ground after a collision, or that his effort isn’t completely there for some people when he’s in the game despite his career numbers?

where are the goalposts, folks? He had a bad year. 104 games coming off an injury and long COVID is not a sample size to descredit the preceding 530 games where he has proven himself, 25 year olds who play at this level don’t suddenly go downhill at that age. I predict a big year, personally.

but what are the goalposts? 6 WAR or he’s a bust? How many players in baseball do 6 WAR a year?

Like it or not, remember it or not, Beckham was very highly touted, did have tremendous support in the organization and fanbase and I recall him having a very long leash. 

Moncada had long COVID, one bad year, and people want him to be a bench player. It’s unbelievable frankly. 

 

Yeah but he made a music video

[Lip Man 1]

33 minutes ago, Greg Hibbard said:

More than anything, I just want this board to admit that the goal posts just never stop moving for Moncada compared to other players.

Many want Eloy to stop playing his natural position at all so he can stay healthy, take a zero or negative number with defense, but Moncada can play the best defense of anyone on the team but it’s not enough because…well, I’m not sure why.

Many are willing to gloss over TA’s lack of OBA, injury history, defensive lapses, off the field issues while holding Moncada to an impossible standard of “looking like he isn’t wincing” or not doing music videos or whatever.

I bring up in this thread that Moncada has actually played 82% of his games since 2018 and that’s not really enough because…. we can cherry pick a list of starters who have played 90%+? or he’s “soft” because we don’t like his facial expressions or amount of the time he’s spent on the ground after a collision, or that his effort isn’t completely there for some people when he’s in the game despite his career numbers?

where are the goalposts, folks? He had a bad year. 104 games coming off an injury and long COVID is not a sample size to descredit the preceding 530 games where he has proven himself, 25 year olds who play at this level don’t suddenly go downhill at that age. I predict a big year, personally.

but what are the goalposts? 6 WAR or he’s a bust? How many players in baseball do 6 WAR a year?

Like it or not, remember it or not, Beckham was very highly touted, did have tremendous support in the organization and fanbase and I recall him having a very long leash. 

Moncada had long COVID, one bad year, and people want him to be a bench player. It’s unbelievable frankly. 

 

Just based on his salary deserved or not (probably not) he is not going to be a "bench player."

[Greg Hibbard]

26 minutes ago, Jack Parkman said:

Moncada is a good player most of the time, his swing and miss issues make him volatile from season to season. I don't blame him for 2020 as long covid is a very real thing. 

I believe he was battling something last year but if you average out the last 4 years he's a 3.2 WAR player and that's fine, even if it isn't worth 25M in 2025. 

He's a good player, but again everyone holds it against him because he was the #1 prospect in baseball and isn't Jose Ramirez. 

You going to hold it against Benintendi too? He was the #1 prospect in baseball as well. 

 

There's nothing that he can do to make a segment of this fanbase happy other than to suddenly start becoming Jose Ramirez. I thought he'd be that good too, I'm disappointed as well, but you can acknowledge he's still a solid regular. 

Interesting that you mentioned his swing and miss issues and I agree with your point, but while Moncada used to be dreadful - 33% k rate per AB early in his career, since the beginning of 2019 his K rate per AB has dropped to 30.5% and since the beginning of 2021 it’s even better - 29.5%. I don’t ever seem to hear much about that improvement. 

[fathom]

4 hours ago, Greg Hibbard said:

Interesting that you mentioned his swing and miss issues and I agree with your point, but while Moncada used to be dreadful - 33% k rate per AB early in his career, since the beginning of 2019 his K rate per AB has dropped to 30.5% and since the beginning of 2021 it’s even better - 29.5%. I don’t ever seem to hear much about that improvement. 

Sure because he has no power now 

[caulfield12]

5 hours ago, Greg Hibbard said:

Ok. For his 2023 and 2024 salary, what is an acceptable expected WAR per 162 for Yoan Moncada?

At least 3.  3.5-4.5 would be much better.

[Soxfest]

I will always think Greg Walker changing GB hitting style really was the beginning of the end.

[Tnetennba]

18 hours ago, Greg Hibbard said:

More than anything, I just want this board to admit that the goal posts just never stop moving for Moncada compared to other players.

Many want Eloy to stop playing his natural position at all so he can stay healthy, take a zero or negative number with defense, but Moncada can play the best defense of anyone on the team but it’s not enough because…well, I’m not sure why.

Many are willing to gloss over TA’s lack of OBA, injury history, defensive lapses, off the field issues while holding Moncada to an impossible standard of “looking like he isn’t wincing” or not doing music videos or whatever.

I bring up in this thread that Moncada has actually played 82% of his games since 2018 and that’s not really enough because…. we can cherry pick a list of starters who have played 90%+? or he’s “soft” because we don’t like his facial expressions or amount of the time he’s spent on the ground after a collision, or that his effort isn’t completely there for some people when he’s in the game despite his career numbers?

where are the goalposts, folks? He had a bad year. 104 games coming off an injury and long COVID is not a sample size to descredit the preceding 530 games where he has proven himself, 25 year olds who play at this level don’t suddenly go downhill at that age. I predict a big year, personally.

but what are the goalposts? 6 WAR or he’s a bust? How many players in baseball do 6 WAR a year?

Like it or not, remember it or not, Beckham was very highly touted, did have tremendous support in the organization and fanbase and I recall him having a very long leash. 

Moncada had long COVID, one bad year, and people want him to be a bench player. It’s unbelievable frankly. 

 

THANK YOU

Very well said and really nails it.  Yes Moncada needs to be better offensively.  We know it is in there somewhere.  If his WBC performance is an indicator of anything, I think he has a monster year.  Will it be enough for some?  Probably not, but honestly who cares any more.  Some dudes are just gonna hate because of the music video, or his rumored party life off the field.  Or that he doesn’t put on enough of a tough guy face when dealing with pain on the field.  None of that s%*# is really relevant.  If Mondada performs like we all know he is capable, his play will drown out the childish noise.  Or at least that is my hope. 

[caulfield12]

51 minutes ago, Tnetennba said:

THANK YOU

Very well said and really nails it.  Yes Moncada needs to be better offensively.  We know it is in there somewhere.  If his WBC performance is an indicator of anything, I think he has a monster year.  Will it be enough for some?  Probably not, but honestly who cares any more.  Some dudes are just gonna hate because of the music video, or his rumored party life off the field.  Or that he doesn’t put on enough of a tough guy face when dealing with pain on the field.  None of that s%*# is really relevant.  If Mondada performs like we all know he is capable, his play will drown out the childish noise.  Or at least that is my hope. 

Childish noise?  I don’t think any owner in baseball would willingly pay $23-25 million for 2017 2018 2020 2022 levels of production.

It’s the same paying Benintendi for 2022 and completely ignoring his three previous seasons.

759 ops and 108 wrc simply not enough for career MLB totals.

Compare to Buxton’s level of production even when he misses so many games.

4.3 fWAR or whatever for 3 1/2 seasons (2017-2022, removing super ball 2019 and 202) just isn't good enough when he’s soaking up 1/8th the payroll.

If he does perform to 3.1 fWAR projections…at least he’s not actively hurting their playoff hopes.  He is sort of close to earning his salary…but nothing close to Jose Ramirez, who earns comparable money.

Edited March 25, 2023 by caulfield12

[The Kids Can Play]

On 3/23/2023 at 2:50 PM, Greg Hibbard said:

Ok, I’ll bite. How many total players have played in 82% of their games or more since 2018?

There are not any reports posted that specifically tell you how many players have collectively played in 82% of their games since 2018. If there are I can't find them. However I can give you an idea of how many players played 82% of their games in each year since 2018:

 YEAR       82% of MLB Games Played (133 games)

2018        145 players
2019        128 players
2020        150 players (60 games)
2021        128 players
2022        122 players

Several of the White Sox players should be setting their standards much higher and trying to achieve over 90% or more of their games played. 

Looking at the MLB in just the 2021 and 2022 seasons, players playing over 90% of their games:

                 90% (146 games)
2021         71 players
2022         65 players

                 95% (154 games)
2021         29 players
2022         27 players

                 98-100% (158-162 games)
2021         18 players
2022         13 players

Note, the Houston Astros who won the WS title last year had 6 players play over 82% of their games and 3 players play over 95%, as opposed to the White Sox who only had 3 players over 82% and only one player (Abreu) over 95% of the games played. The top three Sox returning players for games played last year are:

Vaughn    134 games
Sheets     124 games
Moncada 104 games

The bottom line is heading into 2023, if the Sox are going to be successful and be a playoff contender, which we all hope happens, then they cannot have the players below playing in the amount of games that they played last season:

Moncada 104 games  64%
Grandal     99 games  61%
Robert       98 games  61%
Jimenez     84 games  52%
Anderson  79 games  49%

 

 

 

 

[caulfield12]

5 minutes ago, The Kids Can Play said:

There are not any reports posted that specifically tell you how many players have collectively played in 82% of their games since 2018. If there are I can't find them. However I can give you an idea of how many players played 82% of their games in each year since 2018:

 YEAR       82% of MLB Games Played (133 games)

2018        145 players
2019        128 players
2020        150 players (60 games)
2021        128 players
2022        122 players

Several of the White Sox players should be setting their standards much higher and trying to achieve over 90% or more of their games played. 

Looking at the MLB in just the 2021 and 2022 seasons, players playing over 90% of their games:

                 90% (146 games)
2021         71 players
2022         65 players

                 95% (154 games)
2021         29 players
2022         27 players

                 98-100% (158-162 games)
2021         18 players
2022         13 players

Note, the Houston Astros who won the WS title last year had 6 players play over 82% of their games and 3 players play over 95%, as opposed to the White Sox who only had 3 players over 82% and only one player (Abreu) over 95% of the games played. The top three Sox returning players for games played last year are:

Vaughn    134 games
Sheets     124 games
Moncada 104 games

The bottom line is heading into 2023, if the Sox are going to be successful and be a playoff contender, which we all hope happens, then they cannot have the players below playing in the amount of games that they played last season:

Moncada 104 games  64%
Grandal     99 games  61%
Robert       98 games  61%
Jimenez     84 games  52%
Anderson  79 games  49%

 

 

 

 

Except Leury playing so many games was definitely not exactly a good thing.

Nor was lacking quality depth or patience behind him.  See Lenyn Sosa, for example.

Andrus really bailed them out.

[Greg Hibbard]

17 hours ago, The Kids Can Play said:

There are not any reports posted that specifically tell you how many players have collectively played in 82% of their games since 2018. If there are I can't find them. However I can give you an idea of how many players played 82% of their games in each year since 2018:

 YEAR       82% of MLB Games Played (133 games)

2018        145 players
2019        128 players
2020        150 players (60 games)
2021        128 players
2022        122 players

Several of the White Sox players should be setting their standards much higher and trying to achieve over 90% or more of their games played. 

Looking at the MLB in just the 2021 and 2022 seasons, players playing over 90% of their games:

                 90% (146 games)
2021         71 players
2022         65 players

                 95% (154 games)
2021         29 players
2022         27 players

                 98-100% (158-162 games)
2021         18 players
2022         13 players

Note, the Houston Astros who won the WS title last year had 6 players play over 82% of their games and 3 players play over 95%, as opposed to the White Sox who only had 3 players over 82% and only one player (Abreu) over 95% of the games played. The top three Sox returning players for games played last year are:

Vaughn    134 games
Sheets     124 games
Moncada 104 games

The bottom line is heading into 2023, if the Sox are going to be successful and be a playoff contender, which we all hope happens, then they cannot have the players below playing in the amount of games that they played last season:

Moncada 104 games  64%
Grandal     99 games  61%
Robert       98 games  61%
Jimenez     84 games  52%
Anderson  79 games  49%

 

 

 

 

I agree with you that the White Sox need 5 or 6 players playing in most of the games to contend for the title, but the above stat indicates that in each of those 5 seasons. 4 or 5 - out of 9 (or 10 including the DH, now for both leagues for the last two years) per team played that many games. 122 out of 300 offensive starters played 82%+ last year…a shade over 40%. What does that tell you? That it isn’t the norm anymore. 

[JoeBatadatz]

On 3/22/2023 at 9:49 AM, Tnetennba said:

Soft implies weakness, or a lack of toughness.  It’s such a masculine tough guy word used in this context, one that should really be excised from usage.  No one really knows how hard Moncada works, or his pain tolerance.  Some athletes can play through pain better than others.  Baseball is a grind, and to play everyday, banged up, sore, and to do it again and again is anything but soft.  Moncada is definitely dramatic when dealing with pain and injury.  But that doesn’t make him “soft”.  

No.  

But it does make him a guy in a linebacker's body....with a soccer player's reaction to every tweak.

Grow a pair. Get the ...k up, and at least act like a world class athlete.

[Tnetennba]

1 hour ago, JoeBatadatz said:

No.  

But it does make him a guy in a linebacker's body....with a soccer player's reaction to every tweak.

Grow a pair. Get the ...k up, and at least act like a world class athlete.

Said from your armchair.  Cute.  Telling him to “grow a pair” is exactly the bullshit implication that he’s weak or lacks man parts that I’m speaking too.  It’s juvenile.  Moncada is the one putting his body on the line for your entertainment yet he’s weak or less than because he doesn’t hide his pain in a manly enough manner for your liking?  GTFO.  Maybe he’s not the one who needs to grow a pair.  Or grow up at least.