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GMs skeptical teams meet price for Robert


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6 minutes ago, Tony said:

Man alive, if this is what you are hanging your hat on...yikes. These are all below average Major Leaguers. 

None of these guys start on a contending team. If fringe Major Leaguers are the barometer for success, oh boy...

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5 minutes ago, Tnetennba said:

None of these guys start on a contending team. If fringe Major Leaguers are the barometer for success, oh boy...

And even like the 10 low level MiLB guys listed, odds are incredibly high that none of them make the majors, let along turn into even a decent every day player.

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5 hours ago, WestEddy said:

We're not. JR does spend, Hahn just spent unwisely in the recent past. Fangraphs has the White Sox with a top ten farm system, and we're only going to add to it this draft, TDL and off-season. 

There's a group here who gets their jollies ganging up on anybody positive, and shouts nonsense at them. The White Sox are drafting well, we are developing hitters and pitchers, and JR will spend when we have a reason to. No, we won't be grabbing the top player on the market for 10/$400m, but we'll see if Chris Getz is any better at FA evaluation when the time comes. 

You can possibly think that.  Jerry is in the same company as the Oakland A's when it comes to handing out a $100M contract. He's never going to spend to create a winner, because he doesn't care about winning. He dangles the carrot to create illusions.

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Just now, CWSpalehoseCWS said:

You can possibly think that.  Jerry is in the same company as the Oakland A's when it comes to handing out a $100M contract. He's never going to spend to create a winner, because he doesn't care about winning. He dangles the carrot to create illusions.

He will spend on what his GM tells him will help the club win. Within his own limits. I don't think he needs to grab up every single 10/$400m FA on the market. He needs a GM who can find players away from the top of the market that can produce. We'll see if Getz is that guy. 

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53 minutes ago, WestEddy said:

He will spend on what his GM tells him will help the club win. Within his own limits. I don't think he needs to grab up every single 10/$400m FA on the market. He needs a GM who can find players away from the top of the market that can produce. We'll see if Getz is that guy. 

Like Zach Wheeler and Manny Machado, right? 

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3 hours ago, southsider2k5 said:

The same thing I have been saying the entire time.

The White Sox have not drafted and developed major league hitting at any real level at all.

or pitching, except for Crochet.  And that was luck because they drafted him to rush into the 2020 bullpen and squandered 67% of his service time.  They should get credit for developing Canon - so far so good, but we'll see how it goes.
That 2020 draft was just arrogance from the FO, that as grossly unearned:  Crochet for the pen (worked out great in the end) and then punt 3 rounds to draft 1 high school pitcher.  I guess round 5 was only semi-punted, but it was semi-punted for, surprise, surprise  a relief pitcher.

Punting for high school pitchers hasn't been particularly bountiful.

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35 minutes ago, Tony said:

Like Zach Wheeler and Manny Machado, right? 

Even if you give them a break on Wheeler, not getting Machado or Harper was borderline negligence for the rebuild. What did we have flexibility for in the first place?

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2 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

Even if you give them a break on Wheeler, not getting Machado or Harper was borderline negligence for the rebuild. What did we have flexibility for in the first place?

I agree. 

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4 hours ago, WestEddy said:

He will spend on what his GM tells him will help the club win. Within his own limits. I don't think he needs to grab up every single 10/$400m FA on the market. He needs a GM who can find players away from the top of the market that can produce. We'll see if Getz is that guy. 

JR allows his GMs to spread money out to a variety of mediocre to above average players, no true top free agent stars, and it pretty much never works out.  Getz has already shown the same proclivity to dumpster dive for trash, in the same manner that Hahn did.

Edited by WhiteSox2023
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18 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

Even if you give them a break on Wheeler, not getting Machado or Harper was borderline negligence for the rebuild. What did we have flexibility for in the first place?

And I'm not giving them a break on Wheeler. The rumor has always been they offered more money, but his wife wanted to stay on the East Coast. That may or may not be true, but if they wanted Wheeler bad enough, I have a very hard time believing more money doesn't get him to Chicago. 

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16 minutes ago, Tony said:

And I'm not giving them a break on Wheeler. The rumor has always been they offered more money, but his wife wanted to stay on the East Coast. That may or may not be true, but if they wanted Wheeler bad enough, I have a very hard time believing more money doesn't get him to Chicago. 

Like I said, call it what you will, but we had an entire winter to win Harper and/or Machado and we pissed down our collective leg.  That piece changes the entire direction of the franchise.

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18 minutes ago, Tony said:

And I'm not giving them a break on Wheeler. The rumor has always been they offered more money, but his wife wanted to stay on the East Coast. That may or may not be true, but if they wanted Wheeler bad enough, I have a very hard time believing more money doesn't get him to Chicago. 

1 minute ago, southsider2k5 said:

Like I said, call it what you will, but we had an entire winter to win Harper and/or Machado and we pissed down our collective leg.  That piece changes the entire direction of the franchise.

Fact is, if you miss out on a target, you whiffed.  There are no bonus points for trying.

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41 minutes ago, WhiteSox2023 said:

Fact is, if you miss out on a target, you whiffed.  There are no bonus points for trying.

But the argument centered around money, and obviously if it were up to Hahn/Williams, they would have paid what was necessary to close the deal. Jerry clearly didn’t want to go there. 

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10 minutes ago, Tony said:

But the argument centered around money, and obviously if it were up to Hahn/Williams, they would have paid what was necessary to close the deal. Jerry clearly didn’t want to go there. 

He never does. For a sharp businessman (which he is) he doesn't grasp the concept of getting good players = good teams = more ticket sales, more fan attendance, more parking money, more concession money, more souvenir money, more advertising opportunities.  

Harper paid for his contract immediately as the Phillies I read sold over a million tickets after he signed. 

Remember JR said finishing second, third or fourth doesn't mean you had a bad season! 😆

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18 minutes ago, Tony said:

But the argument centered around money, and obviously if it were up to Hahn/Williams, they would have paid what was necessary to close the deal. Jerry clearly didn’t want to go there. 

But things will be different this time!

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1 hour ago, WhiteSox2023 said:

JR allows his GMs to spread money out to a variety of mediocre to above average players, no true top free agent stars, and it pretty much never works out.  Getz has already shown the same proclivity to dumpster drive for trash, in the same manner that Hahn did.

Your entire dataset is one off-season where his budget was most likely cut, he inherited at least 4 large contracts of players who underperform or are chronically injured, and he referenced feedback that free agents were leery of signing here due to clubhouse issues, or defense. 

Please tell us all of the top free agents you know were targeting the White Sox for a landing spot, looking at what all y'all are calling a 5-7 year rebuild. 

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1 hour ago, Tony said:

And I'm not giving them a break on Wheeler. The rumor has always been they offered more money, but his wife wanted to stay on the East Coast. That may or may not be true, but if they wanted Wheeler bad enough, I have a very hard time believing more money doesn't get him to Chicago. 

How much more money? The wife was having a kid, and wanted to be near family. How much money makes a woman decide to live half way across the country from her mother when she's having a baby? The first Phillies' contract had them set for life. I think we maintain this fantasy that a baseball team can just pile up money until a player says "yes". The Sox were used to get the Phillies' offer. 

There were/are fundamental problems with the clubhouse culture and team makeup. Everybody here is proud to announce the Sox will not be competitive again in our lifetimes, but baseball players should take "more money" to tie their careers to a rebuilding team for the next 7 years. Please help me make sense of that. 

Andrew Benintendi OPSing .525 while getting paid $17m per. They paid him more than he was worth to get him to sign. 

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19 minutes ago, WestEddy said:

How much more money? The wife was having a kid, and wanted to be near family. How much money makes a woman decide to live half way across the country from her mother when she's having a baby? The first Phillies' contract had them set for life. I think we maintain this fantasy that a baseball team can just pile up money until a player says "yes". The Sox were used to get the Phillies' offer. 

There were/are fundamental problems with the clubhouse culture and team makeup. Everybody here is proud to announce the Sox will not be competitive again in our lifetimes, but baseball players should take "more money" to tie their careers to a rebuilding team for the next 7 years. Please help me make sense of that. 

Andrew Benintendi OPSing .525 while getting paid $17m per. They paid him more than he was worth to get him to sign. 

Your entire argument (tonight) has been Hahn/Williams didn’t identify the right targets in FA. They went after Wheeler aggressively, which would have fundamentally changed what took place for the Sox over the last 3-4 years. They ended up having to settle for a much lesser pitcher in Keuchle, because they were not able to top another offer that was on the table. They identified the right pitcher, they weren’t able to beat out a much better organization in signing the player. Thats on ownership. 
 

Additionally, you mention fundamental problems with culture and team makeup. Jerry is the person that kept Hahn and Williams employed WAY past their expiration date, and just hired someone to run his organization that was, wait for it…hired by Hahn and Williams. 
 

But sure, the 88 year old Jerry is going to get it right this time, just watch. 

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1 minute ago, Tony said:

Your entire argument (tonight) has been Hahn/Williams didn’t identify the right targets in FA. They went after Wheeler aggressively, which would have fundamentally changed what took place for the Sox over the last 3-4 years. They ended up having to settle for a much lesser pitcher in Keuchle, because they were not able to top another offer that was on the table. They identified the right pitcher, they weren’t able to beat out a much better organization in signing the player. Thats on ownership. 
 

Additionally, you mention fundamental problems with culture and team makeup. Jerry is the person that kept Hahn and Williams employed WAY past their expiration date, and just hired someone to run his organization that was, wait for it…hired by Hahn and Williams. 
 

But sure, the 88 year old Jerry is going to get it right this time, just watch. 

And do it quickly.  Without signing top free agents. Because they don't want to come here.  And Jerry won't sign the ones who would. 

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8 minutes ago, Tony said:

Your entire argument (tonight) has been Hahn/Williams didn’t identify the right targets in FA. They went after Wheeler aggressively, which would have fundamentally changed what took place for the Sox over the last 3-4 years. They ended up having to settle for a much lesser pitcher in Keuchle, because they were not able to top another offer that was on the table. They identified the right pitcher, they weren’t able to beat out a much better organization in signing the player. Thats on ownership. 
 

Additionally, you mention fundamental problems with culture and team makeup. Jerry is the person that kept Hahn and Williams employed WAY past their expiration date, and just hired someone to run his organization that was, wait for it…hired by Hahn and Williams. 
 

But sure, the 88 year old Jerry is going to get it right this time, just watch. 

Yes, a great deal of the problems were JR first, KW second, then Hahn 3rd. KW had his spies in the clubhouse, and all that. I think Hahn was too cute by half with his contract structures and all. JR has his peccadilloes about what he wants to pay and all, but I do believe that if he had a good GM making good decisions, he'd fund them ... WITHIN HIS OWN PARAMETERS. 

Jr isn't going to do a 10/$400m contract with a pitcher. He doesn't need to. He did do 5/$75m with Benny. He overpaid. 

The White Sox used the league's scouting bureau for the draft well into the 90's. I have to think that Hahn didn't thoroughly scout many of the people he signed/traded for (LaRoche, Yonder Alonzo, Brett Lawrie). 

And Yes, the entire Wheeler debacle was on JR/KW/Hahn, because either they got duped into bidding up Philadelphia's offer, or they just didn't listen to objections. AND THEN they didn't have a quick pivot to a reasonable plan B. 

There's a lot of blame to go around between JR/KW/Hahn. I just think the notion of piling up money until a baseball player says "yes" is fanciful. Wheeler wasn't coming here. Have you ever been in sales? You catch, at some point, that you're not hooking a client. These people aren't leaving their vendor. They don't like us. They're trying to figure out how to make it themselves from us. Whatever. 

That part of it is the most damnable part. Not that Jerry wouldn't pay, but they got duped, had their time wasted, wound up with their dicks in their hands, and then had to pick at the remains of a market they let settle out without them. 

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28 minutes ago, Tony said:

Your entire argument (tonight) has been Hahn/Williams didn’t identify the right targets in FA. They went after Wheeler aggressively, which would have fundamentally changed what took place for the Sox over the last 3-4 years. They ended up having to settle for a much lesser pitcher in Keuchle, because they were not able to top another offer that was on the table. They identified the right pitcher, they weren’t able to beat out a much better organization in signing the player. Thats on ownership. 
 

Additionally, you mention fundamental problems with culture and team makeup. Jerry is the person that kept Hahn and Williams employed WAY past their expiration date, and just hired someone to run his organization that was, wait for it…hired by Hahn and Williams. 
 

But sure, the 88 year old Jerry is going to get it right this time, just watch. 

AND...

Thinking they could offer enough money to allay the objections they may have encountered the entire pitch is probably what lost them Wheeler, and wasted their time. Exactly what you're suggesting they should have done. 

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