NUKE_CLEVELAND Posted May 23, 2004 Share Posted May 23, 2004 The way things are these days that 5th slot in the rotation is a guaranteed blowout loss for us. Until KW can bring in someone who is truly capable of filling the 5th starter role for us we should stop playing the destructive game of musical chairs we've been playing & let the 4 actual no-s*** starting pitchers we have on the team handle a little more work. Thoughts? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jordan4life_2007 Posted May 23, 2004 Share Posted May 23, 2004 If were able to go to a 4 man rotation without burning the guys out i'm all for it. Hopefully Kenny can get something done soon. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fotop Posted May 23, 2004 Share Posted May 23, 2004 Ah the 4 man rotation, the myth, the legend, and the holy grail of sabermetricians... The problem is with today's pitchers and the emphasis on pitch counts and the amount of wear a pitcher puts upon their arm is quite magnified. Everywhere injuries to pitchers are popping up (take the northside for example), and with our farm system and our lack of funds the replacement of one of our pitchers would be damn near impossible. This is quite possibly the main reason why I oppose this idea. Theoretically, the 4 man rotation is the best. Beane and his army of statheads have proven this. However, to have a four man rotation one would need four young and healthy arms with the willingness to take on the extra work (the latter is important because when this was tried in Toronto last season Cory Lidle nixed it due to his injury history). We have two young arms, two old, all without that extensive of injury histories. That's a good start, but I seriously do not buy into to the fact that this would do more good than it does bad. Now hear me out. By swtiching to a four man rotation, you take away the 20-30 starts the 5th slot would normally get. You obviously aren't going to win ALL of those games or come close unless you're tossing a Roger Clemens out there. Best case scenario is you probably win 10-15 with a four man rotation (barring player fatigue impeding performance). With a 5th starter, say you win 25% of those games (5-7) at the very least. I know, I know, the Sox haven't won with their fifth starter in God knows how long, but one cannot think they'll drop EVERY fifth game for the rest of the year. So in the best case for a 4 man rotation, you get maybe 5-8 more wins than you would with a fifth starter. Sounds good right? It certainly does, but there are obviously more viable, and less risky options out there. Actually give a guy like Cotts or Diaz a CHANCE. I'm not talking two starts here, especially in Cotts' case because he's not even stretched out. Sure you run the risk of taking a thumping, however if one of them turns into a decent starter you have a young, inexpensive solution to the problem. Which is amazing for a mid-market team like the Sox. I mean look at the Marlins. For the less patient, you trade for a starter. Granted, we don't know what the team is dealing with in the trade market, or what they would give up but the addition of a solid starter to the team saves the arms we already have and gives us the wins from the 5 spot. It's win-win, yet it's uncharted water because we don't REALLY know what's out there or what our team has to give up. Are these options risky for the short-term? Yes for the first because you run the risk of losing precious games seasoning young pitching, no for the second because you gain a proven starter to shore up the rotation. However, in the big scheme of things I feel saving the quality young arms we have now (Buerhle and Garland) as well as preserving the older arms (Elo and Shoe) is better than sacrificing our rotation down the road for a few wins in the next few months. I think the best option here is to play this out until mid-june/july, if no one emerges and this trend continues then this could be considered. However, at that point the hole in the rotation would be so glaring that KW would HAVE to trade for a starter if he thought this team had any shot at the post-season. Ultimately, this is the goal. No LH Bat, No reliever, A proven pitcher is the key the sustaining success this season and should be acquired if guys like Cotts cannot step it up. Not a Dusty Baker-esque wear down of our pitchers because we've seen time and again that even the most flawless pitchers (mechanically, a la Prior) can fall due to being overworked and I for one would hate the day that that happened to the Sox. In conclusion, I think it's a bit too early for the four man rotation. It sounds like a great plan, but in reality pitchers are just too fragile and important to a team, especially ours with guys like Rauch, Diaz, et al who would take the spot of a hurt starter (*shudder*). I'd much rather see a kid try to prove himself for a month or so than jepordize the 2nd half of the season...plus letting a kid throw every 5th day is a constant reminder that the team needs another starter. Thus pressing KW that much more to pull the trigger on a deal for a stud pitcher at the deadline to push us over the top. Dang it's 4am, and I bet I'm just rambling at this point so I'll stop. However I will say that this is just my honest opinion, and I welcome contention from the other side... I'll just get back to this subject during tommorow's (today's. Afterall it is sunday ) game. Here's to a thoughtful discussion and (hopefully) a whitesox winner against the twins! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mmmmmbeeer Posted May 23, 2004 Share Posted May 23, 2004 E-Lo for one looked absolutely exhausted by Sep. of last season. I don't know how he'd hold up in a 4 man rotation. Schoe hasn't pitched 200 innings so that could be interesting. I think Mark and JG could handle it alright. One option would be to go to a 4 man until we are able to pull off a decent trade to fill the hole. I wouldn't agree with a 4 man for the rest of the season, for the reasons Fotop mentioned, but I don't think that as a temporary deal we'd be harming our pitchers. Anything has to be better than what we've been doing this season and last. A decision needs to be made quickly though IMO, one way or the other. I don't think that there are any other holes in our team that are near as glaring as our 5th starter. I can't imagine that KW is worried about anything more than that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rex Hudler Posted May 23, 2004 Share Posted May 23, 2004 The Sox are going with a 4-man rotation through June 13th, after next Saturday. OFf days will allow them to do so. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest M Dub 20000 Posted May 23, 2004 Share Posted May 23, 2004 I heard on the Score on my way back from baseball practice Kenny was going to try and pull some deal off before June? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aboz56 Posted May 23, 2004 Share Posted May 23, 2004 The Sox are going with a 4-man rotation through June 13th, after next Saturday. OFf days will allow them to do so. So Rex, that means during the Atlanta series (June 11, 12, 13) I won't have to see a 5th starter. Just curious because I'm going to those games. Thanks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrandoFan Posted May 23, 2004 Share Posted May 23, 2004 Pitchers in the 60's and 70's arguably threw just as hard.....with sharp breaking balls, using a slightly heavier baseball. They threw on a 3-day rest. What has changed? Why are these b****es falling apart after 100 pitch mark? (And no, I don't want a 4-man pitching rotation.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AngelasDaddy0427 Posted May 23, 2004 Share Posted May 23, 2004 I don't want to risk injuring are starters playing these games. I say put Cotts back into the pen and bring up Diaz. I really think he was turning the corner and he just needs to win us about 7 games. Either that or pull the trigger on a trade just get us SOMETHING. We can't win with an automatic loss every 5 days! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SnB Posted May 23, 2004 Share Posted May 23, 2004 I'm not a fan of the 4 man rotation, it will put WAY too much pressure and work on our 4, and we need them to be their best all the time. KW's gotta try and swing some kind of deal, and soon. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rex Hudler Posted May 23, 2004 Share Posted May 23, 2004 Pitchers in the 60's and 70's arguably threw just as hard.....with sharp breaking balls, using a slightly heavier baseball. They threw on a 3-day rest. What has changed? Why are these b****es falling apart after 100 pitch mark? (And no, I don't want a 4-man pitching rotation.) Heavier baseballs? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HuskyCaucasian Posted May 23, 2004 Share Posted May 23, 2004 If were able to go to a 4 man rotation without burning the guys out i'm all for it. Hopefully Kenny can get something done soon. The problem with a 4 man rotation is you have to train your pitches from a young age to be able to pitch every 4th day. It's an organizational philospohy. Guys will blow out their arms if you just throw them into it. It would take at least 3 years to get a legi 4 man rotation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrimsonWeltall Posted May 23, 2004 Share Posted May 23, 2004 Pitchers in the 60's and 70's arguably threw just as hard.....with sharp breaking balls, using a slightly heavier baseball. They threw on a 3-day rest. What has changed? Why are these b****es falling apart after 100 pitch mark? Steroids make my arm hurt Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chisoxfn Posted May 23, 2004 Share Posted May 23, 2004 The Sox pitching staff is probably one of the most used in the majors (starting wise) so I don't think it would be wise to put an even heavier workload on them. If I recall the bullpen has pitched by far the fewest innings in the majors. If I'm the Sox I let Cotts stretch out or decide that he should be in the pen all season with him moving to the rotation next year. If thats the case, go get Garcia pronto. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrandoFan Posted May 24, 2004 Share Posted May 24, 2004 Heavier baseballs? Yeah, the old muddied, scuffed baseballs with less corky center..... Do you have the asnwer to the question? Big Sam threw almost 300 pitches in one game and somehow lived to tell about it....Walter Johnson had a few 370 inning seasons and he threw real hard-like.....And so on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrandoFan Posted May 24, 2004 Share Posted May 24, 2004 Steroids make my arm hurt Steroids and pitch counts? Do tell... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YASNY Posted May 24, 2004 Share Posted May 24, 2004 Yeah, the old muddied, scuffed baseballs with less corky center..... Do you have the asnwer to the question? Big Sam threw almost 300 pitches in one game and somehow lived to tell about it....Walter Johnson had a few 370 inning seasons and he threw real hard-like.....And so on. The one thing that you aren't taking into nconsideration is that today pitchers are paid millions of dollars. Their arms are investments and have to be treated as such. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigNDfan80 Posted May 24, 2004 Share Posted May 24, 2004 The way things are these days that 5th slot in the rotation is a guaranteed blowout loss for us. Until KW can bring in someone who is truly capable of filling the 5th starter role for us we should stop playing the destructive game of musical chairs we've been playing & let the 4 actual no-s*** starting pitchers we have on the team handle a little more work. Thoughts? I say continute to parade minor leaguers up here until one sticks. I'd prefer not to wear down this pitching staff with a 4 man rotation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WSox30 Posted May 24, 2004 Share Posted May 24, 2004 Keep trying for a 5th starter. If we wanna play late in the season, we're going to need healthy arms. Period. Evemtually, i would bet almost anything that KW trades for a solid pitcher creating an insane 5 man rotation. But as for now, I see them giving chances realizing that the playoffs can't be won with 4 pitchers that have already pitched mroe than any of the other contenders. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wong & Owens Posted May 24, 2004 Share Posted May 24, 2004 IIRC, throwing hard doesn't really affect a big league pitcher's arm all that much. It's the number of breaking balls + the strain "new" pitches like cutters and split-fingers put on your elbow that contribute to arm injuries. Another contributor may very well be specialization. Today, kids become pitchers at a very young age, and focus from that point on only on pitching. They never develop the other arm muscles that keep the arm strong and stable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrandoFan Posted May 24, 2004 Share Posted May 24, 2004 IIRC, throwing hard doesn't really affect a big league pitcher's arm all that much. It's the number of breaking balls + the strain "new" pitches like cutters and split-fingers put on your elbow that contribute to arm injuries It's a myth that sliders and splitters put significantly more stress on the arm than a fastball and a change-up when the mechanics are right. Secondly, even if it were true, then how come you don't see knuckleballers or good ol' fastball-curve pitchers throw 300 innings a season? I understand Kerry Wood....but Jaimme Moyer and Tom Glavine, they can't throw more than 125 pitches, either. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wong & Owens Posted May 24, 2004 Share Posted May 24, 2004 It's a myth that sliders and splitters put significantly more stress on the arm than a fastball and a change-up when the mechanics are right. Secondly, even if it were true, then how come you don't see knuckleballers or good ol' fastball-curve pitchers throw 300 innings a season? I understand Kerry Wood....but Jaimme Moyer and Tom Glavine, they can't throw more than 125 pitches, either. It's a myth that sliders and splitters put significantly more stress on the arm than a fastball and a change-up when the mechanics are right. **I disagree wholeheartedly. The stress on your elbow from a curve, slider cutter, et al, is definitely higher than from a fastball or changeup. Secondly, even if it were true, then how come you don't see knuckleballers or good ol' fastball-curve pitchers throw 300 innings a season? **I think some could, they just aren't asked to. Tim Wakefield could throw 300 innings easily. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrandoFan Posted May 24, 2004 Share Posted May 24, 2004 Ghost, is it too much to ask you use the 'QUOTE' function? I disagree wholeheartedly. The stress on your elbow from a curve, slider cutter, et al, is definitely higher than from a fastball or changeup. Funny, but Bob Gibson and Sandy Koufax could throw a mean breaking ball.....How come there was no rotator cuff/labrum tear 10 starts into their (and many, many other pitchers') careers? I think some could, they just aren't asked to. Tim Wakefield could throw 300 innings easily. If that were true, then Boston would have asked him way back when they had an awful bullpen. When was the last time he threw 170 pitches a game? And he is a knuckleballer - give me one fastball-change-up pitcher who can throw 140-150 pitches a game on consistent basis like the old timers could on a 2-3 day rest. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wong & Owens Posted May 24, 2004 Share Posted May 24, 2004 Ghost, is it too much to ask you use the 'QUOTE' function? I still dont know how to use the "multi-quote" feature. Funny, but Bob Gibson and Sandy Koufax could throw a mean breaking ball.....How come there was no rotator cuff/labrum tear 10 starts into their (and many, many other pitchers') careers? **I dunno, maybe because they weren't throwing cutters/splitters in addition to the curves and sliders? Maybe they developed their whole arm as young 'uns which gave their joints the stability to withstand the strain of all those pitches? A combination of both? Penis Beauty Creme? If that were true, then Boston would have asked him way back when they had an awful bullpen. When was the last time he threw 170 pitches a game? **Baseball is a specialist's game now. Boston management would have been reamed daily if they used Wakefield every game. Especially when that would keep millions of dollars worth of other pitchers sitting around collecting dust. And he is a knuckleballer - give me one fastball-change-up pitcher who can throw 140-150 pitches a game on consistent basis like the old timers could on a 2-3 day rest. **Randy Johnson would be my best guess, although probably not at 41 years old. 3-4 years ago he may have been able to pull it off. Are there really any other starters out there that rely on fastballs and changeups almost exclusively? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrandoFan Posted May 24, 2004 Share Posted May 24, 2004 I still dont know how to use the "multi-quote" feature. There is no such feature. Highlight the text. Press reply. Paste the text. Erase the stuff you don't want to reply to. Highlight the sentences you do want to reply to and press the 'quote' button once. Type a response underneath the quote. Rinse and repeat. Don't forget to 'preview' post to make sure you didn't f*** up, though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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