Who is the Best Young Pitcher in MLB?

[hammerhead johnson]

Hammerhead -- maybe I read you incorrectly, but did you say you'd take Big Z over any other pitcher in all of baseball? If so, Johan is standing on the street corner asking the question, "Why?"

 

I would take Johan Santana, Pedro Martinez, and Jose Contreras over Carlos Zambrano in 2006. But in a few years from now, Carlos might be the best in the game. I said that he's the most unhittable pitcher out there, but that doesn't mean I think he's the best. He still has some flaws (primarily walks).

 

According to your own opinion on pitchers, WHIP is the ultimate way to see who is the best arm. Well Liriano looks to be more dominant this year. He also plays in a much stronger Division, and is in the AL which usually adds a run to your ERA.

 

WHIP ratio is the most important criteria IMO, but it's not the only criteria. And the fact that he is the most unhittable pitcher in the bigs certainly plays into WHIP, no?

[whitesoxfan101]

For the most part I agree with Hammerhead on WHIP being the most important ratio....it's kinda like OBP with batters, seeing how much your on base or in the case of a pitcher, how many baserunners you give up. The key for Zambrano is, unlike often times in the past, he isn't becoming rattled and going crazy when he gives up baserunners. There have been times in the past where his ERA didn't match what it should be based on his WHIP for long stretches since he'd just fall apart mentally when there were men on base, but he's getting a lot better now in that category, and his ERA is showing it.

[hammerhead johnson]

Zambrano wasnt this dominant even in his first time around. Not to mention he plays in the NL.

 

St. Louis, Cincinatti, and Milwaukee are good offensive teams. The NL Central is a pretty strong division, hitting-wise. Did you see the Team OPS post, or no?

 

Team OPS Rankings

1. Toronto .850

2. Chicago .827

3. NY Yankees .822

4. Boston .820

5. Cleveland .812

6. Texas .805

7. Cincinatti .791

8. NY Mets .790

9. Los Angeles .788

10. Detroit .783

11. St. Louis .782

12. Milwaukee .777

13. Baltimore .756

14. Philadelphia .764

15. Colorado .763

 

Baltimore is actually 15th. You have 7 NL teams ranked in the Top 15. It's not that the NL sucks at hitting, it's just that the AL (particularly the East, Good God) is so much crazier.

[whitesoxfan101]

St. Louis, Cincinatti, and Milwaukee are good offensive teams. The NL Central is a pretty strong division, hitting-wise. Did you see the Team OPS post, or no?

Baltimore is actually 15th. You have 7 NL teams ranked in the Top 15. It's not that the NL sucks at hitting, it's just that the AL (particularly the East, Good God) is so much crazier.

 

The NL freaking sucks at pitching though. Even their 2 best teams by far (Mets, Cardinals) have a lot of issues in their rotation after 1 and 2, and even with the DH to deal with, AL pitching is probably better than NL.

[RockRaines]

St. Louis, Cincinatti, and Milwaukee are good offensive teams. The NL Central is a pretty strong division, hitting-wise. Did you see the Team OPS post, or no?

Baltimore is actually 15th. You have 7 NL teams ranked in the Top 15. It's not that the NL sucks at hitting, it's just that the AL (particularly the East, Good God) is so much crazier.

No offense to your reasoning. But there is correlation between their offensive production and the weakness of the NL and its pitching. Especially in that division. I think we have seen the different in interleague play. Also NL pitchers get to face other pitchers at least 3 times a game, which also makes going through the lineup easier. There is a difference of about 1 run when moving from NL to AL. Look at Bronson Arroyo. He is an Ace in that division, and could barely make it in the AL.

 

WHIP ratio is the most important criteria IMO, but it's not the only criteria. And the fact that he is the most unhittable pitcher in the bigs certainly plays into WHIP, no?

Wouldnt you say that Liriano's WHIP makes him a better pitcher than Zambrano at this point?

[whitesoxfan101]

Just for reference and comparison (I ordered them based on how good they are IMO btw, lol).....

 

Sox Staff:

1. Contreras (yeah....not bad)

2. Buehrle (very good 2)

3. Garcia (solid 3)

4. Vasquez (solid 4)

5. Garland (bad ERA, but productive recordwise and better lately)

 

Pen:

Jenks

B-Mac

Cotts

Thornton

Riske

Montero (soon to be Politte)

 

Tigers Staff:

1. Rogers

2. Bonderman

3. Verlander

4. Robertson

5. Miner (decent 5)

 

Pen:

Jones

Zumaya

Walker

Rodney

Colon

Grilli

 

Cards:

1. Carpenter

2. Marquis

3. Ponson (now in Mulder's spot)

4. Suppan

5. Reyes (for now....)

 

Pen:

Isringhausen

Looper

Wainwright

Flores

Thompson

Hancock

 

Mets:

1. Pedro

2. Glavine

3. Trachsel

4. El Duque

5. Soler

 

Pen:

Wagner

Sanchez

Bradford

Heilman

Oliver

Feliciano

 

The difference in the qualities of staffs is pretty noticeable IMO, ESPECIALLY the starters after 1 and 2.

[hammerhead johnson]

No offense to your reasoning. But there is correlation between their offensive production and the weakness of the NL and its pitching. Especially in that division. I think we have seen the different in interleague play. Also NL pitchers get to face other pitchers at least 3 times a game, which also makes going through the lineup easier. There is a difference of about 1 run when moving from NL to AL. Look at Bronson Arroyo. He is an Ace in that division, and could barely make it in the AL.

 

Hold on, so now you're flipping the script and saying that the NL is weak, pitching-wise? The only reason that the NL has 7 teams in the Top 15 (OPS) is because the pitching sucks?

 

I disagree, and strongly at that. The NL has some beef lineups, which would make it more difficult for Zambrano to put up such a devastating BAA (.187), not to mention his strong WHIP, ERA, and K numbers. That was the original point. And if anything, having a pitcher in the batting order is going to bring Team OPS down, correct? Cincinatti, New York, St. Louis, and Los Angeles are all .800+ OPS teams in the AL, wouldn't you agree?

 

And Bronson Arroyo is the definitive evidence? You have to come at me with more than just exceptions here and there. I'd rather speak in terms of general rules. Bronson Arroyo is the most confusing pitcher in the majors. Nobody knows what that dude is capable of. Remember, in 2005, he was Top 15 in the majors in WHIP ratio through the end of May, and that was with Boston.

 

And no, just because Liriano has a better WHIP ratio than Zambrano doesn't mean that I think he's a better young pitcher (criteria: 25 or younger) than Carlos. Again, it's the most telling stat IMO, but there are so many other things to take into account. He has the best BAA in the bigs, and that's after a s***ty April. In May, he held opponents to a .160 BAA. Thus far in June, people are hitting like .150 off of him. Those are some scary numbers, you have to admit. I wouldn't say that he's the most unhittable pitcher in the bigs just for the sake of argument. He is proving it every time he takes the mound.

 

Just for reference and comparison (I ordered them based on how good they are IMO btw, lol).....

 

Sox Staff:

1. Contreras (yeah....not bad)

2. Buehrle (very good 2)

3. Garcia (solid 3)

4. Vasquez (solid 4)

5. Garland (bad ERA, but productive recordwise and better lately)

 

Pen:

Jenks

B-Mac

Cotts

Thornton

Riske

Montero (soon to be Politte)

 

Tigers Staff:

1. Rogers

2. Bonderman

3. Verlander

4. Robertson

5. Miner (decent 5)

 

Pen:

Jones

Zumaya

Walker

Rodney

Colon

Grilli

 

Cards:

1. Carpenter

2. Marquis

3. Ponson (now in Mulder's spot)

4. Suppan

5. Reyes (for now....)

 

Pen:

Isringhausen

Looper

Wainwright

Flores

Thompson

Hancock

 

Mets:

1. Pedro

2. Glavine

3. Trachsel

4. El Duque

5. Soler

 

Pen:

Wagner

Sanchez

Bradford

Heilman

Oliver

Feliciano

 

The difference in the qualities of staffs is pretty noticeable IMO, ESPECIALLY the starters after 1 and 2.

 

There is no question that the NL has weaker pitching overall, but you can't say that their pitching is weak.

 

Roy Oswalt

Roger Clemens

Andy Pettite

Carlos Zambrano

Mark Prior

Chris Capuano

Ben Sheets

Cris Carpenter

Mark Mulder

Anthony Reyes

Zach Duke

Brad Penny

Chad Billingsley

Jake Peavy

Chris Young

Jeff Francis

Brandon Webb

Enrique Gonzalez

Jason Schmidt

Matt Cain

Brett Myers

Cole Hamels

Pedro Martinez

Alay Soler

John Patterson

Livan Hernandez

Tony Armas

Dontrelle Willis

Josh Johnson

John Smoltz

Tim Hudson

 

And dare I mention:

 

Bronson Arroyo

Derek Lowe

Tom Glavine

 

I see plenty of talent, and I won't even get started on bullpen arms.

 

But the AL is much deeper, there's no question about it. Still though, don't say that NL pitching on a whole is weak (directed at rock, not wsfan101). I'm not buying it.

Edited June 23, 2006 by hammerhead johnson

[Hangar18]

I saw this and immediately thought of Scott Kazmir and Justin Verlander. Liriano of the Twinks

is going to be dominant I believe in the near future.

[JackTalkThai]

5. Miner (decent 5)

 

Good 5...and an excellent 5 through four starts.

 

He was dominant in the minors this year and there's been no let off in the majors.

 

But to stay on topic...

 

Liriano is the best young arm (under 25) in the league.

Edited June 24, 2006 by JackTalkThai

[loltrain]

Bonderman has been absolutely dominating in 4 june starts, sub 2. era and 36 k's. Remember he's the same age as Verlander.

 

Of course I still have to go with Liriano.

 

Finally on the NL v AL debate, just look at interleague play, the AL is tearing it up, the Tigers are 8-2, the Red Sox are 9-1, and aren't you guys 10-0? (Or 9-1? something insane like that)

 

Hell even the Royals are beating up on the NL lately.

[Kalapse]

Bonderman has been absolutely dominating in 4 june starts, sub 2. era and 36 k's. Remember he's the same age as Verlander.

 

Of course I still have to go with Liriano.

 

Finally on the NL v AL debate, just look at interleague play, the AL is tearing it up, the Tigers are 8-2, the Red Sox are 9-1, and aren't you guys 10-0? (Or 9-1? something insane like that)

 

Hell even the Royals are beating up on the NL lately.

9-1 the Cubs managed to eek out a lucky win.

[Gregory Pratt]

I like Scott Kazmir.

[Beetle]

Josh Johnson.

 

 

To add to the ones already mentioned.

[zygoat]

justin verlander?

 

i like him and think he is going to be nasty in the future

 

and his pickoff move is dominant

 

kazmir is a good one but he needs to be on a good team to excel

tampa isnt going to cut it for him

[Hurons]

Zumaya

Kazmir

Hernandez

Verlander

Papelbon

Liriano

[southsideirish71]

No love for the closer huh. What about Bobby Jenks. He is probably at the top tier of closer right now in the league.

[RockRaines]

No love for the closer huh. What about Bobby Jenks. He is probably at the top tier of closer right now in the league.

True he is. But I would still rather have Liriano etc. SP's tend to be more consistent than closers. And im still worried about the screw holding his arm together.

[chitownsportsfan]

Liriano 7IP, 8K, 2 ER tonight. Damn. Now is only 2 innings short of ERA leader eligibility, would lead Santana by nearly half a run.