Kalapse Posted August 9, 2009 Share Posted August 9, 2009 QUOTE (Tex @ Aug 9, 2009 -> 01:06 PM) I wonder what definition eveyone is using on certain words. Atrocious to me would be someone who would not even receive a contract to play A ball, regardless of their offensive skills. Based on my definition, Dye is not atrocious. Based on a different definition, say, not one of the top 3 defenders in baseball, he is atrocious. But these silly debates are worthless unless definitions are established. That's because your definition spans all players, mine for example only includes major league everyday outfielders and among everyday outfielders in the majors right now Jermaine Dye is in the bottom 3 defensively, he's a DH masquerading as an outfielder. I'd say that qualifies as atrocious. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThunderBolt Posted August 9, 2009 Share Posted August 9, 2009 QUOTE (almagest @ Aug 9, 2009 -> 12:18 AM) He won the MVP because of defense? Dude, face it, Dye is a great hitter but is bad defensively. Bringing up his offensive prowess from 4 years ago isn't going to change that. DH-ing Dye is the right move. I always thought Crede should of won it too. Not to condemn what Dye did though, he was great. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
son of a rude Posted August 9, 2009 Share Posted August 9, 2009 This thread reminds me of that crazed britney spears fan LEAVE JERMAINE ALONEEEEEEEEEE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chw42 Posted August 9, 2009 Share Posted August 9, 2009 Greg was actually serious? I thought a guy with 9,000 posts would know that Dye sucks in the outfield. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greg775 Posted August 9, 2009 Share Posted August 9, 2009 Atrocious to me means he is a complete and utter stiff who has no business being on the team. That clearly is not the case in my opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kalapse Posted August 9, 2009 Share Posted August 9, 2009 QUOTE (greg775 @ Aug 9, 2009 -> 03:34 PM) Atrocious to me means he is a complete and utter stiff who has no business being on the team. That clearly is not the case in my opinion. An atrocious DEFENDER who has no business playing the outfield. Today was a perfect example of why he needs to be moved out of right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chw42 Posted August 9, 2009 Share Posted August 9, 2009 QUOTE (greg775 @ Aug 9, 2009 -> 03:34 PM) Atrocious to me means he is a complete and utter stiff who has no business being on the team. That clearly is not the case in my opinion. According to UZR and Plus/Minus, Dye is THE worst right fielder in baseball over the past 3 years and it's by A LOT. He has no business playing the outfield. That doesn't mean he has no business playing on the team. He's a very good hitter. Nobody in this thread hates Jermaine Dye or want him gone. We just think he should be a full-time DH. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kenny Hates Prospects Posted August 9, 2009 Share Posted August 9, 2009 QUOTE (WCSox @ Aug 9, 2009 -> 10:30 AM) Apparently you didn't watch JD during the first half of his career. I saw a lot of him when he was with the Royals and he was definitely above average in RF. He was still halfway decent in his first year with the Sox but, as is correctly stated in this thread, has lost most of his range over the past few years and looks like he's running through sand at this point. +1 Dye was one of the best all-around players in baseball when he was with the Royals. Injuries and age have caused him to deteriorate, but it's not like he wasn't a stud at one point. Ditto for a lot of guys, like Vladdy and Andruw Jones for instance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kalapse Posted August 9, 2009 Share Posted August 9, 2009 QUOTE (chw42 @ Aug 9, 2009 -> 03:38 PM) According to UZR and Plus/Minus, Dye is THE worst right fielder in baseball over the past 3 years and it's by A LOT. He has no business playing the outfield. That doesn't mean he has no business playing on the team. He's a very good hitter. Nobody in this thread hates Jermaine Dye or want him gone. We just think he should be a full-time DH. He's actually 2nd in UZR behind Hawpe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chw42 Posted August 9, 2009 Share Posted August 9, 2009 Dye actually won a gold glove with his defense back in 2000, not his offense. He used to be a very good defensive outfielder. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chw42 Posted August 9, 2009 Share Posted August 9, 2009 QUOTE (Kalapse @ Aug 9, 2009 -> 03:44 PM) He's actually 2nd in UZR behind Hawpe. Over the past 3 years? Plus/Minus has him as the worst by a lot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Critic Posted August 9, 2009 Share Posted August 9, 2009 This is a crazy thread. Dye is not atrocious and he is no longer a defensive stud. He's normally a little better than he's played recently. And FWIW, I still think Joe Crede should have been the Series MVP in '05. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kalapse Posted August 9, 2009 Share Posted August 9, 2009 QUOTE (chw42 @ Aug 9, 2009 -> 03:46 PM) Over the past 3 years? Plus/Minus has him as the worst by a lot. Yep UZR/150: -31.0 Brad Hawpe -19.6 Jermaine Dye -10.8 Bobby Abreu Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chw42 Posted August 9, 2009 Share Posted August 9, 2009 QUOTE (Kalapse @ Aug 9, 2009 -> 03:54 PM) Yep UZR/150: -31.0 Brad Hawpe -19.6 Jermaine Dye -10.8 Bobby Abreu Brad Hawpe should be a 1B, same with Dye. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kalapse Posted August 9, 2009 Share Posted August 9, 2009 Just ignoring all statistical evidence since I get why some would be hesitant to treat it as gospel, do people honestly believe it's possible for probably the slowest outfielder in the game to be even average defensively? A good read can only do so much, you have to have some kind of closing speed to get to balls. Just try watching someone like Alex Rios one time and you'll realize what we're missing out on, he's easily getting to balls that Dye has no chance on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iamshack Posted August 9, 2009 Share Posted August 9, 2009 QUOTE (Kalapse @ Aug 9, 2009 -> 04:06 PM) Just ignoring all statistical evidence since I get why some would be hesitant to treat it as gospel, do people honestly believe it's possible for probably the slowest outfielder in the game to be even average defensively? A good read can only do so much, you have to have some kind of closing speed to get to balls. Just try watching someone like Alex Rios one time and you'll realize what we're missing out on, he's easily getting to balls that Dye has no chance on. I don't actively seek out defensive metrics, but I generally believe them when they are presented to me. It's obvious, just by watching Dye, that he is slow afoot, clumsy because of his size, and becoming more and more inaccurate with his arm due to deteriorating mechanics. He does salvage complete embarrassment sometimes due to a generally solid athleticism on balls he can get to. However, it is time for him to become a full-time offensive ballplayer. The eyes will tell you that, and the stats will confirm it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WCSox Posted August 9, 2009 Share Posted August 9, 2009 QUOTE (Kenny Hates Prospects @ Aug 9, 2009 -> 01:39 PM) +1 Dye was one of the best all-around players in baseball when he was with the Royals. Injuries and age have caused him to deteriorate, but it's not like he wasn't a stud at one point. Ditto for a lot of guys, like Vladdy and Andruw Jones for instance. QUOTE (chw42 @ Aug 9, 2009 -> 01:45 PM) Dye actually won a gold glove with his defense back in 2000, not his offense. He used to be a very good defensive outfielder. It's nice to see that other people here actually watched baseball back in the 20th Century. Dye was no Ichiro or anything, but he was A LOT more athletic back in his prime. You'd never know it by watching him play today. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThunderBolt Posted August 9, 2009 Share Posted August 9, 2009 QUOTE (WCSox @ Aug 9, 2009 -> 05:18 PM) It's nice to see that other people here actually watched baseball back in the 20th Century. Dye was no Ichiro or anything, but he was A LOT more athletic back in his prime. You'd never know it by watching him play today. Dye was insanely athletic when he 1st came up with the Braves. It wasn’t until he had that horrific leg injury with the A’s that he radically changed his style of play. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
qwerty Posted August 9, 2009 Share Posted August 9, 2009 Rather logical if you ask me... there have been many other studies done of this sort... and all conclude the same way. Does it bother any of you (not just people in this thread) that kalapse pwns the living s*** right out of yourselves on a daily basis? Soxtalk is so very monotonous, it's craziness. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted August 9, 2009 Share Posted August 9, 2009 Stick Figure salutes you... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheBigHurt Posted August 10, 2009 Share Posted August 10, 2009 I'm done with the thread. He's not atrocious; he's just not. I'm really enjoying my World Series DVD tonight as I sip a Bud. I especially love the part where Jermaine is hoisting his MVP trophy. Not bad for an an atrocious outfielder. Man he really sucks. I'm sorry, but I can't possibly put you on being older than 14. Dude, 2005 was four years ago, and even then he was kinda slow. He's also declined physically. And comparing JD to Rios is just a laugh. Even I, as a guy who's normally just a casual fan and not an expert on the game and it's calculations, am having a hard time believing you could be this ignorant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lillian Posted August 10, 2009 Share Posted August 10, 2009 With all of this discussion of Dye's defense, it might be more useful to think in terms of the total outfield defense when considering replacing Dye with Rios. As I stated previously, with an outfield of a somewhat hobbled Quentin in Left, Pods in Center and Dye in RF, the Sox are fielding one of the worst outfield defenses in baseball. By simply replacing Dye with Rios they could improve the entire outfield, as such a move would also move the other two outfielders to different positions. Rios in Center, Pods in LF and Quentin in RF is a significant upgrade. It provides a true centerfielder with speed and an arm, moves Pods to LF where his arm is less of a negative, and fixes the very poor range factor Dye represents in RF. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chw42 Posted August 10, 2009 Share Posted August 10, 2009 Dye alone makes our outfield below average. Pods in center is slightly below average and Quentin's mediocre. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soxfan-kwman Posted August 10, 2009 Share Posted August 10, 2009 Is their any chance to put Dye in LF, Pods-CF, & move Quentin over to RF. I've seen Bobby Abreu move over & play left field. plus, Dye could gun more guys out at home on Sac Flys. Dye in left would still be better then a Soriano, a Manny, Johny Damon just to name a few. Then we could move Pods back to LF & Wise to CF in late innings. & switch off Dye to DHin the end of games to keep his big bat in the line-up? Any thoughts? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Texsox Posted August 10, 2009 Share Posted August 10, 2009 QUOTE (Kalapse @ Aug 9, 2009 -> 01:15 PM) That's because your definition spans all players, mine for example only includes major league everyday outfielders and among everyday outfielders in the majors right now Jermaine Dye is in the bottom 3 defensively, he's a DH masquerading as an outfielder. I'd say that qualifies as atrocious. And based on your definition, I would agree. So atrocious in your book is still employed as a MLB outfielder. In fact, every year there are, by definition, three atrocious outfielders. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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