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RedPinStripes

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From day 1 we were chasing K-layton out of town and for good reason. Now I hear a lot of people pushing Jose the butcher out of town when we were all screaming for him last year at ss. I'm part of this group too. Jose tried real hard to air mail that ball last night and thankfully pauly saved it. Some of the Sox fans from teh 80's and early 90's never had to deal with a bad defensive ss until they let Ozzie Guillen go. Dammit it cant wait till this organization successfully produces a long term SS. :bringit

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Yofu?  he's a pitcher, right?

Dude, youre right! Where did I get the whole idea that he was a shortstop? Oh I know. A couple weeks ago someone posted something about the next Japanese star (hell probably be here next year, to mlb that is, who knows, maybe the Sox will pick him up) and I got them confused. Oops... :lolhitting

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Ozzie Guillen was poetry in motion at SS. I can still remember Luis Aparicio on his second go around with the Sox and Ron Hansen. Hansen sure had good hands and was steady in the field for a tall drink of water like he was. Also the Twinkies hated him becasue he always put the hurt on those smirking twinkies.

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Ozzie Guillen was poetry in motion at SS. I can still remember Luis Aparicio on his second go around with the Sox and Ron Hansen. Hansen sure had good hands and was steady in the field for a tall drink of water like he was. Also the Twinkies hated him becasue he always put the hurt on those smirking twinkies.

I still cant belive Ozzie's a 3b coach. He screwed up a lot trying to be too aggressive, but it paid off at times.

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From day 1 we were chasing K-layton out of town and for good reason. Now I hear a lot of people pushing Jose the butcher out of town when we were all screaming for him last year at ss. I'm part of this group too. Jose tried real hard to air mail that ball last night and thankfully pauly saved it. Some of the Sox fans from teh 80's and early 90's never had to deal with a bad defensive ss until they let Ozzie Guillen go. Dammit it cant wait till this organization successfully produces a long term SS

 

Say it with me...Jose's "terrible D" has cost the Sox a grand total of 3 (ok, 4 if you wanna stretch it) runs so far this year. Same as Vizquel. Case closed. Jose stays where is.

 

It was a slow grounder deep enough in the hole and should have been an infield single. Many shortstops do not get off as quick and strong a throw in that situation, which means the runner scores, tying the game up. Jose's location wasn't perfect by any means but it was good enough for Paulie to handle. (Speaking of Koneko, how soon do we forget how many runs/games his defense and no range has cost the Sox so far? Way more than Jose that's for sure)

 

Do you realize that the only reason Carlos Lee even came to bat in the 8th is because Jose got a good enough jump from 1st on Frank's pathetic grounder to the pitcher to stay out of the DP? Another thing Jose does well that will never show up in the stats...but at the end can be a difference between winning and losing

 

But whatever.

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Say it with me...Jose has cost the Sox a grand total of 3 (ok, 4 if you wanna stretch it) runs so far this year.  Same as Vizquel.  Case closed.

 

It was a slow grounder deep enough in the hole and should have been an infield single.  Many shortstops do not get off as quick and strong a throw in that situation, which means the runner scores, tying the game up.  Jose's location wasn't perfect by any means but it was good enough for Paulie to handle.  (Speaking of Koneko, how soon do we forget how many runs/games his defense and no range has cost the Sox so far?  Way more than Jose that's for sure)

 

Do you realize that the only reason Carlos Lee even came to bat is because Jose got a good enough jump from 1st on Frank's pathetic grounder to the pitcher to stay out of the DP? Another thing Jose does well that will never show up in stats, but aat the end can be a  difference between winning and losing

 

But whatever.

I'm not in the "I hate jose club", but i am looking for an improvement.

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you are like everyone else then who said this in 2000, 2001 and 2002.

 

just because an error doesn't lead to a run, doesn't mean it isn't costly or can't become costly in time.

 

One error automatically leads to another batter, more pitchers and less confidence a pitcher has for his fielders.

 

it is a problem that has to be resolved before it becomes a bigger problem. Valentin makes errors and one day, like it has three times this year, it is going to cost us.

 

you make it seem as though his errors are acceptable because we always pick up after him.

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okay, he's a good baserunner who has reached base how many times this year?

 

people say Valentin is a good baserunner and a clutch hitter. can't be a good baserunner unless you are on base and you can't be a clutch hitter unless guys are on base for you.

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you are like everyone else then who said this in 2000, 2001 and 2002.

 

just because an error doesn't lead to a run, doesn't mean it isn't costly or can't become costly in time.

 

One error automatically leads to another batter, more pitchers and less confidence a pitcher has for his fielders.

 

it is a problem that has to be resolved before it becomes a bigger problem.  Valentin makes errors and one day, like it has three times this year, it is going to cost us.

 

you make it seem as though his errors are acceptable because we always pick up after him.

me?

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I'm not in the "I hate jose club", but i am looking for an improvement.

 

Hey, don't get me wrongm, if we are talking about Renteria, Tejada, Jeter-type guys, I say do it...But no, if it's not Jose, then it's gonna be Miles or Jimenez and neither of them throws the runner out, no way. They would make as many errors as Jose, cost more runs/games and but would have nowhere near the ability to make a spectacular catch or gun people down and turn DPs...

 

Jose's defense gets bashed too much by people who either don't watch games or can't look beyond/into the stats. He is no Ozzie Smith, but if Sox end up losing this season, it very rarely will be because of his glove.

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YEAH YOU MIKE! lol.

 

seriously though, people always said, "well, we won't in 2000 with Valentin and his errors at short" making it sound as though Valentin's 30 errors were a reason for us winning.

 

errors are harmfull and will bit you in time.

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Hey, don't get me wrongm, if we are talking about Renteria, Tejada, Jeter-type guys, I say do it...But no, if it's not Jose, then it's gonna be Miles or Jimenez and neither of them throws the runner out, no way.  They would make as many errors as Jose, cost more runs/games and but would have nowhere near the ability to make a spectacular catch or gun people down and turn DPs...

 

Jose's defense gets bashed too much by people who either don't watch games or can't look beyond/into the stats. He is no Ozzie Smith, but if Sox end up losing this season, it very rarely will be because of his glove.

I NEVER want to see Jiminez at ss. He bobbles half the routine plays at 2b. Now Tejada would be a dream that will never happen on the south side. I'd like to see the Sox develop a good SS. The only possible chance is Andy Gonzalez and i think he's still in A ball. Caruso might have turned out to be a good player if he wasnt rushed.

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YEAH YOU MIKE! lol.

 

seriously though, people always said, "well, we won't in 2000 with Valentin and his errors at short" making it sound as though Valentin's 30 errors were a reason for us winning.

 

errors are harmfull and will bit you in time.

I'm ripping jose for his errors! :P

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you are like everyone else then who said this in 2000, 2001 and 2002.

 

That's because it's supported by COLD.HARD.FACTS. I suppose the fact that Sox are playing 600+ ball with Jose as everyday SS is also a coincidence...

just because an error doesn't lead to a run, doesn't mean it isn't costly or can't become costly in time.

 

In the ideal world I'd love to have a short-stop who makes no errors, but meanwhile I will gladly take one whose errors lead to least runs. Look up how many runs Tejada, Guzman and Vizquel have "caused" this year.

 

One error automatically leads to another batter, more pitchers and less confidence a pitcher has for his fielders.

 

Whatever...all I know is that those batters do not cross the plate for the most part, whether it because Jose erases them with a nift DP or he makes a good forceout play or simply because his errors are usually of 2 out/bases empty variety.

 

it is a problem that has to be resolved before it becomes a bigger problem. Valentin makes errors and one day, like it has three times this year, it is going to cost us.

 

But it never will become a "bigger" problem if 2000 (and to lesser extent 2001-2002 when he was moved around) numbers are to be believed. Furthermore, Minnesota game was the only one which Sox would have won if it weren't for Jose's error....and he was the only reason Sox were in the game in the first place...lolol

 

I can live with it of he also turns league-leading DPs, displays a strong arm, runs bases, hits in clutch, etc, etc, etc.

 

you make it seem as though his errors are acceptable because we always pick up after him
.

 

Yeah, "we" pick up after Jose. It's this "magical" quality Sox pitchers possess that Okland (Tejada) pitchers don't....Then how do you account for Jimenez/Crede/Konerko and how many runs their (fewer) errros have brought in?

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Guest hotsoxchick1

well as much as you love him or you hate him.. his errors are well made up for with his bat.... of course he and jimenez will never jell as well as he and durham (and cheese) did..........he wont be around much longer anyhow so now we have to find a new ss........and soon.......

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well as much as you love him or you hate him.. his errors are well made up for with his bat

 

We are talking about roughly 3-4 runs that he must make up for here. I bet his DPs/forceouts/saves alone erase that differential.

 

Then you add his bat (he's been bad at the plate but is still on pace for 83 RBIs out, many of game-deciding variety out fo 2nd spot), his base-running (not until you see Sox fail to score on 3 consecutive singles in Metrodome that you start to appreciate the way he effortlessly scores from 1st on doubles and 2nd on singles and rarely hits into DPs or gets doubled up, taking extra bases on balls in the dirt) and leadership skills (Jimenez comes to mind).

 

At the end Jose's +/- is still way up there.

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I doubt the Sox will sign Jose . I 'm pretty sure he's a F/A after the season.

 

If he has another strong second half this time around and Sox cruise into the playoffs, with rise in attendance, I see the Sox picking up his option for 2004. Easily if Manuel stays.

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Guest hotsoxchick1

brando i meant errors over all since hes been here... vs his bats since hes been here.... im sure if you check it out youll find that his bat does a lot of making up for those errors he has......thats what i meant............ :D

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brando i meant errors over all since hes been here

 

 

I know that...my point was that he probably makes up for his defense with his ...defense, before even taking his bat/running/leadership/popularity into consideration.

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That's because it's supported by COLD.HARD.FACTS. I suppose the fact that Sox are playing 600+ ball with Jose as everyday SS is also a coincidence...

 

 

 

well, then that explains the cold hard fact that the Sox are 28-18 right now

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