ZoomSlowik

The problem with trading Noah is your interior defense takes a major hit and you wouldn't have the money to replace him. Two max players plus either Deng or Hedo (which pretty much have to be involved) puts you right up against the cap. That means your interior defense is left to Bosh, Gibson and probably Asik. Can any of those guys guard NBA centers right now? Bosh has proven that he can't, Gibson is too small and Asik is unproven. It has nothing to do with Noah's value relative to Bosh, it has everything to do with getting these guys and still being able to field a championship caliber defense. It would be difficult to fufill their championship potential with no one to guard Dwight or the Bynum/Gasol duo.

QUOTE (IamtheHBOMB @ Jul 2, 2010 -> 09:44 PM) So Zoom, what do you think they should do with Deng? If they want two max, he has to be traded somewhere. The easiest thing would be to send him to Toronto for Bosh. If they won't take him, they have to send him somewhere else and try to save at least $4 mil, probably closer to $6 mil (I don't know the exact math with the cap holds).

After reading Dick's post on the trade exceptions, I don't see how they could get all three and still keep Rose and Noah. Several problems arise: 1) Deng, Rose and Noah make about $20 mil, which doesn't leave them enough room for two max. 2) If they trade Deng to try to get to double-max room, they won't have a salary to match Bosh. Lebron, Wade, Rose, Noah and the two rookie deals (Johnson and Gibson) would be the only salaries on the roster. Even if you sent the other four players, it wouldn't be enough to match Bosh. 3) They can't trade Deng for Bosh first because he'll be making $17 mil all by himself, putting a major dent in your cap room.

QUOTE (kev211 @ Jul 2, 2010 -> 09:25 PM) Well I guess I'm not up to date on NBA financials can I get a brief description on what the hell a trade exception is? Basically to make the math work on trades for teams over the cap, you can take a trade exception instead of players back. You then have a year where you can send that trade exception elsewhere in a deal instead of player salaries to make a trade work (under the CBA, a team over the cap has to send/take in an amount that is within 10% of the salary that is going the other way). It would generally happen when a team over the cap trades a player to a team that is under the cap and doesn't want to take back any salary. Edit- Dick actually out-lined the rules in a much better fashion. I mistakenly thought they could be combined.

QUOTE (Soxbadger @ Jul 2, 2010 -> 09:16 PM) (haha zoom at least give me credit you bastard) LOL, I basically typed the same thing about the math 10 minutes ago, only I totally forgot about a potential Hinrich trade exception.

QUOTE (Soxbadger @ Jul 2, 2010 -> 09:11 PM) So I did some searching, and maybe there is going to be a trade exception with Hinrich? That trade isnt finalized so maybe they know something we dont... If that's the case, they could potentially pull it off. It's a multi-step process though... 1) Trade Deng somewhere to clear his money off the payroll, or at least drop your salary by like $4 mil (that could be a tough one) 2) Sign your two max free agents with the increased room. 3) Use the trade exception from the Hinrich deal as well as the $3 mil in exceptions remaining from the Salmons and Tyrus trades plus probably Johnson and/or Gibson to acquire Bosh. Still seems like quite a pipedream though.

QUOTE (Chisoxfn @ Jul 2, 2010 -> 08:58 PM) Somehow everyone seems to think if the Bulls do one S&T, they have room for 3 max contracts. I don't know why, unless it is the Bulls trading Deng/Noah for Bosh as that would give them room for 3 maxs. But is there an exemption or something the Bulls could get back that than helps them? Or do the Bulls have an exemption already that would help them in a S&T? I don't think they have any trade exemptions. If they do, then that's an entirely different scenario and it may be possible. However, assuming they don't, the math simply doesn't work. Here are the Bulls' current salary commitments: Rose- 5.546 mil Deng- 11.355 mil Noah- 3.128 mil James Johnson- 1.713 mi Taj Gibson- 1.117 mil Total committed salary- 22.86 mil, not counting cap holds. That means they have just under $30 mil in cap space, which is a lot but not enough to pay two guys $16.6 mil. Unless they could clear at least $4 mil more, they can't sign two max guys. Plus they'd still need Deng and a little more filler in a sign-and-trade for Bosh since they'd have to be within 90% of Bosh's contract value for it to be a valid trade under the CBA. So basically, all three isn't happening.

QUOTE (mmmmmbeeer @ Jul 2, 2010 -> 08:54 PM) Thanks. So why are several sources reporting that all 3 could end up in Chicago while retaining DRose and Noah? No one seems to understand the cap. The Bulls don't even have enough to sign two max deals out-right as things stand right now, they're several mil short of that. Sign-and-trade for Bosh and either Wade or Lebron is by far the most sensible/likely scenario.

QUOTE (mmmmmbeeer @ Jul 2, 2010 -> 08:45 PM) I'm pretty much a idiot when it comes to NBA salary cap rules......with Bosh being a sign and trade, does he count against the cap? If JR is willing to pay a luxury tax, how does that fit in with obtaining the "trifecta"? All salaries count against the cap. The luxury tax is a totally different number and issue. There are some ways to get around the cap, but none of them allow you to go over it to sign other teams' free agents.

QUOTE (Real @ Jul 2, 2010 -> 08:45 PM) What is Max right now, 16.6? Something like that, though it'd be more if Bosh gets his sign and trade. 16.6 times three equals $49.8, which when factoring in cap holds would put you right at the limit.

QUOTE (Real @ Jul 2, 2010 -> 08:36 PM) Can someone explain to me why Rose would have to be traded anywhere to get Lebron/Bosh/Wade? All 3 guys' teams have pretty much no say in who they're getting back in a sign and trade. It's either they accept the sign and trade, and get something in return, or their player walks and they get nothing. Also, Rose's contract isn't high enough for it to be bumping up against the cap if we were able to dump Deng's contract to the TBz's is it? The only way you could have enough cap space to sign three max guys is to completely clear your roster. Three max players is just barely under the salary cap, so keeping anyone on the roster would make it impossible. There's no way the Bulls could get all three, it'd only be two of them.

QUOTE (Athomeboy_2000 @ Jul 2, 2010 -> 01:43 PM) no, but I think it could only help. Actually, it would seriously hurt their chances of adding Lebron because they wouldn't have enough cap space left. The math: Bulls incoming: Bosh (about 17) + Hedo (9.8) = basically 27 mil Bulls out-going- Deng= 11.355 mil Bulls total salary addition= $15.45 mil That would put them at $38.5 mil in total salary, leaving roughly $13.5 mil in space minus some cap holds, or at least $3.1 mil short of max cap space. The only way they'd be able to clear enough space in that scenario would be to move Noah and probably Gibson or Johnson as well.

QUOTE (Jordan4life @ Jul 1, 2010 -> 11:07 AM) They've tried and failed miserably at getting that legit #2 man to pair with Lebron. Larry Hughes? Fail. Mo Williams? Fail. Antwan Jamison? Fail. And they've lacked athletes and multi-skill players for as long as Lebron has been there. The reason they've had the success they've had is because they play in a clearly inferior conference. If they were in the West, they'd be an annual 6-8 seed every year. This is a ridiculous argument. It's not like the MLB where only 10% of your games are against the other league. The Cavs played 30 games against the west this year (36% of their schedule) and went 23-7. That's a 76.67 winning percentage, better than their overall percentage and a 63 win rate. They were even better the previous year, going 26-4 against the west (86.67%, 71 win pace). They'd still be the #1 or #2 seed and it's hard to argue that their struggles in the playoffs would be any worse than they have been. The west is a bit tougher at the top, but there are still some really s***ty teams at the bottom like Minnesota and Golden State, and moderately talented teams like Memphis and Houston are still around the .500 mark.

QUOTE (knightni @ Jun 30, 2010 -> 09:55 PM) I've sent trade offers to you (which were ignored), we've posted messages to you (no response) and we've sent trades that you never validate. It's more than just transactions. You're exaggerating quite a bit... 1) I've received two trade offers the entire season, and I don't recall ever seeing one from you. I still get the E-Mails. 2) I'm only the commish of the keeper, and there's been a whopping three trades the entire season, so it's not like I missed a ton of activity. I know I validated the early Steve/Chimpy one, don't recall on the other two. 3) I have no PM's in my inbox, and I pretty much never delete them (I still have ones from 2007).

QUOTE (knightni @ Jun 30, 2010 -> 09:48 PM) Zoom. Why did you abandon the Soxtalk fantasy leagues? I'm not really any worse than I was last year, I'm not a high-transaction guy. I made 9 moves COMBINED in the three Soxtalk leagues last year to much greater effect. I just drafted like s*** this year apparently.

QUOTE (Brian @ Jun 30, 2010 -> 09:27 PM) Wade can shoot the 3 and post up. Rose is a mid range guy and penetrator. Wade obviously penetrates as well. Bernstein saying they couldn't play together is way off. Wade shoots the three, that doesn't mean he can or should shoot it. He shot 30% from outside this year and is at 28.9% for his career. That f***ing sucks. The shot distribution by zones is almost identical... Wade- 7.4 attempts per game at rim, 1.8 attempts Rose- 5.6 attempts at rim, 2.1 attempts There's really not much of a difference there, other than Wade takes more shots. "Can play together" is relative. They'd both still be effective players, but they're not going to combine for anything close to 50 PPG when they're fighting to get to the same places on the floor.

Since when are Rose and Wade drastically different players? They're roughly the same size (both about 6'3" or 6'4" with good bulk), they both have the ball in their hands most of the game, they both do most of their damage on the drive, and neither of them can hit a 3 with any kind of efficiency. That sounds pretty similar to me. Are they exactly the same player? No, Wade is better at finishing at the rim, gets to the line more and plays better D, while Rose is a better mid-range shooter. It's not much of a stretch to say that their respective production/efficiency would go down a bit if they had to share the floor since they have most of the same strengths and weaknesses. They're both good so they'd make it work, but it's less than ideal.

QUOTE (Athomeboy_2000 @ Jun 30, 2010 -> 03:41 PM) If we can get a solid rebounding/defensive center, than I agree with you. but who could we get? Brendan Haywood. Though I really don't see how Toronto has the leverage to demand anything, their options are basically take whatever they can get or let him walk.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jun 30, 2010 -> 02:17 PM) Well, first point is that even though Wade and Bosh will only be taking up $35 million they're still holding a couple other guys like Beasley that they'd have to find a way to turn into something useful. It'd get easier every year for them, because every year they could make use of the MLE to add additional players. But that first year, they're a 50 win, non-championship caliber team. The rumors are that Beasley and Chalmers would be going in the Bosh deal. Those are the only guys they'd have under contract right now. Even if they aren't moved, that'd still leave them around $12 mil under the cap, enough to pick up a few key rotation pieces. As for the championship part, that depends largely on where Lebron goes and how well they fill their roster. Assuming Beasley and Chalmers do go in the Bosh sign and trade, they could have a roster like this, which I think would give them a chance: PG- One of Felton, Foye, Ridnour, Blake plus someone like Duhon or Watson SG- Wade plus someone like Rasual Butler SF- Miller or Salmons, Butler as swing man PF- Bosh, Haslem backup C- Haywood, Ratliff backup Spend like $6 mil on Haywood $5 mil on Miller/Salmons, about $3 or $4 mil on your starting PG and another $3 mil/league minimum exemptions to fill out the roster. Fairly doable and not exactly overmatched unless the Bulls get Lebron.

QUOTE (whitesoxfan101 @ Jun 30, 2010 -> 01:51 PM) You could win with Wade, Bosh, and role players. But as good as the top 3 guys would be, I think it'd be a major challenge to win with Wade, Bosh, LeBron, and a bunch of league minimum guys. They'd be able to fill out the perimeter spots fairly easily since they don't need any ball-handling or shot-creating ability from any of them, just guys that can hit open shots and/or play defense. Size wouldn't be a major issue either, they could add a couple of undersized guys and play them at the point. Their one real issue would be finding another big man on the cheap, preferrably one that could defend at center and possibly another one that could handle 20 MPG off the bench without being a total scrub. That could obviously be a major one, but then again so is trying to guard three of the top-10 players in the league.

Two thoughts I'll add. -Noah is pretty damn important if you intend to have a championship caliber team. Let's say hypothetically that you trade him and Deng for Anthony and sign Joe Johnson or Carlos Boozer. Your frontcourt defense is now a major issue with Gibson and some combination of Boozer, Asik and maybe Brad Miller coming back. Who the hell is going to slow down Dwight Howard? What kind of chance do they have to beat the Lakers in a 7-game series when Gasol, Bynum and Odom are gang-raping you down low? Who the heck is going to keep up with Bosh on pick-and-rolls, especially after Gibson gets in foul trouble? Forget the elite kind of guys, aren't the days where someone like Mikki Moore hangs 13-11 on us fairly likely to come back? -I find the people claiming that Miami can't win with Wade, Bosh and a collection of role players fairly funny. The Heat just won 43 and 47 games the last two years with JUST Wade and a collection of role players. How much are they really losing with these other players? It sure doesn't look like a whole lot. Here's a list of the non-Wade guys that played at least 20 MPG for the Heat last year: Michael Beasley Jermaine O'Neal Udonis Haslem Quentin Richardson Mario Chalmers Dorrell Wright Rafer Alston (only for 26 games) Carlos Arroyo Is anyone on that list irreplaceable? The most talented player is Beasley, who they're pretty much trying to give away. I really don't see it being that hard for them to build a 50+ win team around Wade and Bosh, especially when they'll still have a fair amount of cap space with Wade and Bosh only taking up like $35 mil. Just sign a rugged, defense-oriented center like Brendan Haywood (or bring O'Neal and/or Haslem back on the cheap selling him on a shot at a ring) and add a couple of shooters that don't do much else like Randy Foye or Chris Duhon and Rasual Butler (or Ray Allen if the price is right), then you have basically the same roster with Bosh instead of Beasley. That's a pretty decent upgrade.

They both stink. /discussion

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jun 24, 2010 -> 03:20 PM) If there's a way for a team to lose the MLE rights I don't know what it is. Right here, from NBA salary cap FAQ: To paraphrase, the Bulls do not have any exceptions to use because of their $30 mil in cap space. They can not go over the cap to sign Lebron/Bosh and then still use the MLE to sign a SG because it's only available to teams that are over the cap at the start of the off-season.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jun 23, 2010 -> 05:32 PM) That doesn't change what I said, and you'll note I said that it only makes sense if Lebron is signed. If the Bulls sign Lebron, that move clears their SF spot without a giant change in salary, gets them 2 players, and allows them to retain the MLE plus a small amount because they'd still be a little bit under the cap. You don't use the MLE up before signing the big name guy, you sign the big guy first, then you use the MLE to fill holes and you start working on extending Noah because you no longer care about paying the Luxury Tax. No, you're missing the point Balta. You CAN'T sign Lebron and then still get the MLE. The MLE is only available to teams that are over the cap at the start of the off-season. THAT is why you can't just give away Deng for two overpaid role players, it's not going to be that easy to find a replacement. They're going to need SOMEONE else that can score, Lebron and Rose can't get 60 every night. I suppose it's okay if you're getting Lebron and Deng is redundant anyways, but Gortat is a pretty bad contract to eat just to get Pietrus. Eventually, they'll need someone better than Pietrus, Hinrich or their draft pick to be their #3 scorer though, someone that can score 20 if one of them has an off-night. Noah and Gibson don't really have diverse enough offensive games for that role and Pietrus and Hinrich are mostly just jump-shooters.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jun 23, 2010 -> 05:22 PM) Doesn't really matter as long as the Bulls aren't within $200k of the cap. Assuming that Lebron is signed, then the Bulls are instantly a title contender, and still have the MLE remaining. They could then use the MLE and begin working to extend Noah and the only worry would be the luxury tax, and if the Chairman isn't making money hand over fist on that team then there's something wrong with him. After we extend Noah, we won't have the chance to make a max deal offer again unless someone is traded (Rose plus Noah plus Deng plus Hinrich plus filler is enough to prevent a max deal offer starting next year). So you do that trade to clear out the SF slot and to get 2 things; depth at C/Pf behind Noah and a guy who can play SG and shoot a 3 ball, which is by far the Bulls's biggest weakness. This part isn't true. From the CBA FAQ: The ONLY way that makes sense is if they get Lebron, otherwise they just traded a fairly solid starter for two fringe starters at best (unless other moves are involved).