[Sox sign Toby Hall]

This whole time Soxhawk was talking about "signing" Abreu, I thought he was talking about last July.

 

I heard and read NOTHING about Abreu being moved. All I remember is hearing Abreu talk about how much he enjoys playing in NY. Why would New York trade Abreu if they already traded Sheffield?

For a while, it was talked about quite a bit here in New York, and no it wouldn't have been a straight up trade.

[Sox sign Toby Hall]

Abreu for Garcia huh? Im sure KW didnt even think of that possibility and never explored it. In fact if the idea came up, im sure he immediately declined based on it being too great of a return for a declining pitcher in his walk year.

I'm sure the Sox would have had to throw in more. It would have been worth it.

I know Jose Guillen's stats, thanks, maybe I saw them when i quote his exact SLG from last year?

If you know them, then why did you ignore everything before 2006?

Of course im sure in your assessment of PODS, im SURE you have examined his career stats, and not just last year's.

I have indeed. What I see is one good year (2003). He also did pretty well for the Sox in the first half of 2005 and then downright crappy in the second half. And then even worse in 2006. He's never been particularly good. Last year he showed throughout the entire year a player who wasn't good at any aspect of the game. He has gone from not very good, to bad to awful. If you have some good evidence or even argumentation that Pods is anything but awful, please share.

The team has improved in several areas so far this year, you are too blind and hateful towards the organization to even take notice.

The team has improved its backup catcher. So far, that's it. I don't see Aardsma as an improvement over Cotts. Maybe Aardsma will develop into a better pitcher than Cotts, but I doubt it will happen all of the sudden. Sisco isn't an improvement for 2007. He has great upside potential, but he clearly isn't there yet. So please tell me how "the team has improved in several areas so far this year." Because everyone who had a poor season in 2006 is going to have a good season in 2007, and no one who had a good season in 2006 is going to have a bad season in 2007?

Anyone with a signature such as yours pretty much has solidified himself as someone who cant be happy even with success.

No, I just don't blindly give the manager credit when credit is not due. Did you see Ozzie's managing in 2006? It as simply abysmal. He's not a good manager, period.

Have a great night, and maybe this season the team may bring you some joy.

You too, and Happy Holidays to you and yours.

[Sox sign Toby Hall]

Abreu was available for what?

Of course we don't know for sure. But the word around NYC was that he was available for SP help, like Garcia.

Jose Guillen is your answer as well? Maybe it was his .398 SLG last year that caught your eye?

Do you always just look at the prior year's production? Is it relevant to you that this wasn't even a full season of play for him and that it is very different from each of the prior 3 years? It should be. Jose Guillen would have been a huge upgrade over Pods.

And I guess just placing iguchi in the lead-off spot is logical considering he really never hit there, and isnt ideal for the slot, but sure it makes sense.

It makes a lot more sense than having Pods lead off. Are you saying only guys who have hit leadoff before should leadoff? That doesn't make much sense. He's the best candidate for the job, and certainly sufficient. No, he's not ideal, but he would be a MUCH better leadoff hitter than Pods who can't get on base and steals for a poor percentage when he does get on base.

Basically anything different that what we are currently planning to do is what you would like us to do, i understand.

I would like the team to improve. That's not a very radical position.

[Sox sign Toby Hall]

Huh? When was Abreu a free agent? Guillen who?

 

Which one of those guys would have batted lead off?

Abreu was available. "Guillen who" is Jose Guillen. Iguchi could lead off. Abreu could lead off. As I have said before, you don't need a base stealing speedster leading off. You need a guy who can actually get on base.

[Ross Gload Traded For Andrew Sisco]

You couldn't just be happy, huh? The idea that Gload would be better than Pods as our LF is funny. Especially, considering the gaping hole we'd have in line up in the lead off spot.

I could be happy, and I am. It is clearly a good trade. I think I said that too.

 

Gload, of course, would have been better than Pods in left field. A lot better. Virtually anyone left in the lineup would have been better than Pods leading off. Iguchi would be a significant upgrade over Pods in the leadoff spot. You don't need a base stealing speedster leading off. You need a guy that gets on base. That is MUCH more important than speed. That is, if you want to score runs.

[Sox sign Toby Hall]

So in other words you're basically saying, you would want a team that would have a better chance to win this season, at the cost of being as competitive in future seasons? Is it not worth us acquiring good young starting pitching considering the current market price for pitching in the FA Market?

When the team has serious holes to fill for the coming season, I don't think it makes sense to trade your best trading chip for prospects that won't help you this season. I don't think that is entirely a choice between winning this season or being competitive in the future. But when you have a good chance to contend immediately, I think you need to maximize that chance. Again, I'm not saying trade a bunch of prospects for veterans. That would be mortgaging your future. I'm saying don't trade veterans for prospects. That is ALL about the future to the detriment of the present.

 

As I have said many times, I never had any problem with trading Garcia. BMac will fill his rotation spot nicely. But that trading chip should have been used to upgrade the current team. Or, if you trade for prospects, use that money to acquire an upgrade. Unfortunately the significant FA upgrades are off the market. Perhaps KW will make a trade which will bring in someone really good, and thus put that money to good use. If so, depending on what he gives up in that trade, he could turn the Garcia trade into something good. I'm hoping.

In terms of an overall upgrade, what guys were out there that could of been had, and if they were in the FA market, was it worth overpaying (e.g giving 3 years to Dave Roberts) to accomplish that?

Two obvious choices that would have been affordable are Abreu and Guillen. They would have been huge upgrades over Pods and affordale.

[Sox sign Toby Hall]

What would make you happy? Anything? Or are you really that miserable?

Huh? Did somebody wake up on the wrong side of the offseason today? What would make me happy is upgrading this team in significant ways. One hole we had was backup catcher and it has been filled very nicely. I made my comment in response to someone who said that with this season, he was fully satisfied with the offseason even if no other acquisitions are made. I'm not. I don't see how anyone could be. A third place team needs to fill some holes. Essentially standing pat isn't enough. What would make me happy? A real overall upgrade to the team. Not an overhaul. Not necessarily bringing in a marquee player. But something that does good job of filling a hole from the 2006 team.

[Sox sign Toby Hall]

We won 90 games. We would've won quite a few more with legitimate back-ups at C and CF, not to mention a better bullpen.

I don't know if we "would've won quite a few more [games] with legitimate back-ups at C and CF." I think better backups at C and CF would have helped us a little, but those minor positions wouldn't add significantly to the win total. A significantly better bullpen would definitely help. I don't know if the 2007 bullpen is going to be significantly better than the 2006 pen.

I can't imagine our starters being as bad as they were last year.

I don't know what we should expect about our rotation next year.

 

Buehrle - I do think he's got to be better next year. But I don't think 2006 should be written off as a complete aberration and that he'll go back to a 3.5 ERA.

 

Contreras - He had a lot of problems in the last 2/3 of the year. I worry that a pitcher over 40 will deteriorate and/or experience injury problems. It's not exactly uncommon.

 

Garland - His overall performance in 2006 was essentially what it has been for most of his career. I think that is the real Garland.

 

Vazquez - He's had an up and down career with years better and worse than his 2006. I guess I expect 2007 to be more of the same. He could do notably better or worse in 2007.

 

McCarthy - Obviously the hardest to predict. I'd put the over/under at about the same performance Garcia gave us last year. But of course there is a real chance that he could do considerably better or worse.

 

Overall, I can't say that I'm very confident that the rotation will be significantly better next year.

 

 

And, will the players who performed better in 2006 than they had in most of their career perform worse in 2007?

 

Shannon Stewart is no longer capable of playing the outfield.

And he can't hit. None of the remaining FA OFers are worth a damn. This is why I wanted KW to use Garcia to yield us a good upgrade at LF, CF or SS. If we werent' willing to sign someone like Abreu or Guillen, we needed to trade for a good upgrade in one of those positions. Of course, trade is still possible, but what is KW willing to give up? Unfortunately, I don't think KW sees making a significant upgrade at any of those positions to be a priority.

[Sox sign Toby Hall]

I just don't like the fan perspective that says "We were great last year, no matter what the results were. With essentially the same team next year, we should expect very different results."

[Sox sign Toby Hall]

No, it's not standin pat. It's counting on your team to play the way they are supposed to and not underachieve for an entire season.

That's quite a gamble. How much of the team's play was underachievement? And did any players overachieve last year? Shouldn't we expect them to regress as well?

 

I still think standing pat as a 3rd place team doesn't make much sense.

[Sox sign Toby Hall]

IF this is true, I'd be happy with this offseason if we could add a legitimate back-up CF who hits righty...and possibly one more reliever.

Really? You'd be happy with this offseason if the only upgrades over the 2006 team were a slightly better backup catcher and backup CF, and maybe another reliever (given the fact that nothing particularly good is left to sign)? Wouldn't that be essentially standing pat?

[Ross Gload Traded For Andrew Sisco]

Just heard it on the radio.

 

Andrew Sisco.

Very good trade. Gload was a competent backup and could have been an upgrade in LF over Pods, but he wouldn't have been used like that regardless. So, trading a 30 year old perma-bench player for a 23 year old lefty pitcher with a lot of upside potential makes a lot of sense.

 

Let's remember that Sisco needs some work. Since he has options left, I hope he starts the season in AAA so he can work on what he needs to work on.

[Williams: Sox not cutting payroll]

i think people are frustrated by the lack of upgrades that have been made so far this year.

 

going into the off season we needed

 

1) A Backup Catcher

2) Middle Relief

3) A new Centerfielder

4) A new leadoff person

5) A new shortstop

 

and so far we've upgraded at 0 of these positions. Pitchers and catchers report in 3 months and the free agent market is dwindling. I think a lot of Sox fans feel that the "shot clock" is running out and we are going to be stuck with...

 

1) Chris Stewart or Sandy Alomar

2) No middle relief upgrades

3) Brian Anderson in CF

4) Scott Podsednik leading off

5) Juan Uribe starting at SS

 

and what did we do to improve our team?????

Standard Soxtalk response: "Hey, it is mid-December. There's lots of time for KW to work his magic."

 

I have a strong feeling that the same people that are saying this now will come up with a new refrain if no significant upgrades have been made by the end of ST. By then it will be, "We didn't need any upgrades. The 2006 team underachieved so we can expect the 2007 to be better with essentially the same players."

[Williams: Sox not cutting payroll]

What I mean is...the 2005 White Sox were a TEAM. They had no superstars, they had no ridiculous salaries and they won the World Series. If you want to put together an All-Star team every year and load up on players that either play or bat out of place, you might get winning teams every year, but you aren't going to get World Series champs.

So that is what you meant when you said that you don't want the Sox to be like the Red Sox, Yankees or Mets. But the problem is that this strategy has led to World Series victories for the Red Sox once and the Yankees multiple times. Those teams won a lot of games and won the World Series because they had a hell of a lot of talent. If your strategy is trying to find magical chemistry with a bunch of cheaper players, you are lucky to get lightning in a bottle once.

Hell, look at the late 90's Yankees. Sure they had star power, but they still had the O'Neil's and the Brosius' that know their role and play it well. Pods may not have had a great season last year. But, so what? He knows his role on this team and does his best to keep in step. I would MUCH rather pay him $3 mil for ONE YEAR than Pierre or Roberts for 3+ years.

The fact that Pods knows his role and does his best to keep step doesn't help the team any. You say that he didn't have a great season "but so what?" So what? So, he hurt the team. He was an automatic out in the lineup and a liability in the field. I think that rates higher than a "so what?" I never claimed overspending on Pierre or Roberts would have been a good idea. But spending the market price on Guillen or Abreu would have been worth it and would have been affordable, if we are to believe what Kenny says in this article. And they both would have been major improvements over Pods.

[Williams: Sox not cutting payroll]

They can? I'd love to see a copy of the balance sheet you are looking at.

I assume "They can?" refers to me saying that the Sox can afford at least a small increase over last year's payroll. I draw that conclusion from the fact that they made a tidy profit last year and can therefore afford to invest some of those profits into a small increase in payroll.

[Williams: Sox not cutting payroll]

Give me a f'rinstance. Lugo, no thanks.

He would have been an upgrade over Uribe and Uribe could have been traded away for something.

Abreu, he wouldn't come here to leadoff.

We have no idea if he would have come here. And it doesn't make any difference if he comes here to leadoff or not. He's a huge upgrade over Pods. And how do we know if he even cares if he is the leadoff hitter or the #2 or #5?

Guillen, maybe, but doesn't solve our leadoff problem.

Not every acquisition solves every problem. Again, he would have been a big upgrade over Pods. He or most players on the team would be better leading off than Pods.

With the way these contracts are, $10 million for Garcia is a drop in the bucket. This wasn't a White Flag trade. It was a, "we aren't going to be able to re-sign all of these guys" trade.

 

I mean, c'mon, we haven't even signed Cintron or Crede yet and they are going to get raises. Do we REALLY want to be the Red Sox, Yankees or Mets?

I don't.

I don't know what this means. Do we want to spend as much as the Red Sox, Yankees or Mets? They spend what they can afford. If the Chisox could afford that much, they should spend that much. Unfortunately Chisox revenues don't allow for that kind of payroll. But as a fan, I certainly want the Chisox to spend as much as they can afford. And the Chisox can easily afford at least a small increase over last year's payroll. I would definitely like for them to spend that much money to improve the team. There have been opportunities to do that this season. Hopefully KW can figure out something in the remainder of the offseason to make it happen.

[Williams: Sox not cutting payroll]

It's mid-December. Before we bend KW over a barrel, let's just see how this all shakes out.

No question. The offseason isn't a failure or success until the season starts. But it seems like the gist of most of the comments in this thread is "thank god KW didn't waste the team's money on any of the FA's that have been signed." Of course I didn't want KW to throw away big money on a stiff like Gil Meche, but there have been some good opportunities to spend money which KW has eschewed.

[Williams: Sox not cutting payroll]

The Sox saved $10 million by trading Garcia. Do you think KW is going to spend that money on someone? If he doesn't, then it looks like a straight payroll cut to me. I know there have been a lot of crazy contracts signed this year, but it doesn't mean that there was no player available who was also affordable. Abreu, Jose Guillen and Lugo would all have been affordable and significant upgrades for the team. Why is pocketing the money better than spending it on an upgrade?

 

Of course KW still has the chance to spend that money to improve the team. I hope he does it, instead of pretending that there was no way to spend the money that would actually help the team.

 

He's better than our current leadoff hitter in literally every single offensive category.

But he's not a slap hitting speedster!

[Sox offer arbitration to Crede & Cintron]

They're not gonna keep him long term. They'd prolly jump at the chance to trade him for 2 more no names for the "future"

Can you imagine how great that would make us in 2010! Why should I care about 2007?

[another "great" Tribune article]

Eh, a lot of the rumors being thrown around were about bringing young pitching in.

The only rumor I heard that involved only prospects was a Texas rumor. All the rest involved at least one major league player who provided us an upgrade.

 

And at least the Texas rumor involved at least one genuinely major league ready prospect.

[another "great" Tribune article]

It's amazing how much everyone is overreacting when everyone knew that a starting pitcher was going to be traded this offseason.

It is because everyone assumed that when trading this SP we would be getting back at least one player who would upgrade one of the areas of need for the 2007 major league team. Unfortunately, we didn't.

[Are the Sox going to dump the whole team?]

Get that out of your system? Good, time to actually think about baseball instead of posting crazy stuff. KW has made ONE deal, and it was a good one, deal with it.

Spin, spin, spin. If you think about a trade long enough, you can convince yourself that it was actually great for your team.

[Are the Sox going to dump the whole team?]

I never said it was a good idea, in fact I said it's probably a foolish one. I was just relaying what Coop has stated and what he obvious course of action would be with Floyd. Floyd will be starting the year in the majors as of right now so you should probably be ready for that one.

This is true, but that part of his post was valid. We made a trade for two guys who most likely will not help the major league team this year. They may get some innings in the majors, but there is no reason to believe they will be good innings. Whether one likes the trade or not, one should realize that the only value of Floyd and Gio is in their future potential, not their present.

[Are the Sox going to dump the whole team?]

I've never seen the words 'neither', 'nor' and 'never' in the same sentence before, I was impressed.

Watch out, I'm just getting started with the negativity.

[Are the Sox going to dump the whole team?]

If we are to believe anything that is said by the men running the White Sox organization then yes it looks like Floyd will be on the 25 next year, he's not a lock but I'd give him better than even odds that he makes the big club out of spring training.

Unfortunately, I agree. I'd much rather he work on things in AAA and see if he can fix things there before coming to Chicago.