beck72

Johnson has only thrown 240+ innings in 6 of the last 7 seasons. And last yr was due to his knee, not his arm. Injury prone? No.

The key is getting value from a 5th SP and a reliever. The sox have had good success finding a guy cheap who can do the job [Loiaza, Gordon, Politte]. With relievers such as Ramiro Mendoza, Matt Mantei who have been injured, and vet SP's like Paul Wilson, Wilson Alvarez etc, the sox could fill these spots for $1-2 mill. each. If the sox seem like they have their act together, getting the top "cheap" guys does make a difference. Or the sox could go with a $1 mill, bullpen guy, and pay more for a SP. Or vice versa. The Sox have a record around the league of giving guys a 2nd chance to prove themselves, esp. due to past injuries, or w/ Scott Schoeneweis of letting him go back to being a starter. Being known as an org. that gives guys a 2nd or 3rd chance should pay dividends. While part of it is being "cheap" and loking for the best value, the sox have been willing to take chances on guys.

That's a good point of attracting FA's if the Sox got Johnson in trade. [as has been mentioned, RJ would likely want the team to sign him to a 2006 extension, as well, for similar money as this yr. Yet Beltran wouldn't be possible, not for his $17-20 a yr long term contract. The Sox don't make a $25 mill jump in payroll. It doesn't fit their M.O. and it doesn't leave them any financial room come the deadline to fill any holes. Still, with a RJ trade making the sox immediately legitimate in many players' eyes around the league, the sox could get a good shot at a closer/ set up man, and a vet 5th SP to compete for a job. That coupled with Ozzie making contacts around the league, I'd like the sox chances of signing another player or two [besides Vizquel].

Az can ask for anything. The key is what do they want, and what teams have it. Who knows what Az will get for RJ, when they do trade him. But AZ can always trade PK and Garland next yr at the deadline. [they'll need to stay competitive to start the yr so fans will come to the park. But if they are out of the race by a lot then they can still get value for both guys]. Also, they can sign them to deals when they become FA's. Jon is from Cal. and PK is from AZ, so both could re-sign. If I were the GM, I'd get the best possible players I could. A Pk and Garland deal would be tough to beat.

That's why getting a one yr guy in Johnson, or Hudson, doesn't sound so strange going by JR's past practices. [though the sox do have few position players locked in to big long term contracts--Lee for 2 yrs with a 3rd option yr-- so there is room to add salary]

It was suggested to get a FA SP, that would move Garland to #5, instead of getting Johnson. I would rather have a sure fire #1 on the staff then have a questionable #3 or #4, with the best #5 in the league in Garland. My response is the sox have 3 SP's locked in for a few yrs already for a big chunk of change. Getting a #2 or #3 [like Perez, Pavano, Radke, etc] would mean another large contract for a few yrs.

Good points. Ariz. would still want people coming to the park, even if they are in "rebuilding mode" and won't make the playoffs this yr. That's why getting AA prospects doesn't make sense for them. That coupled w/ getting burned by the Sexton and Schilling trades for prospects, makes me lean towards AZ wanting established players, ala PK and Garland. But there seem to be few teams who can match up w/ Ariz, and who are in the position to go for a one yr rental like RJ. It might come down to the question, Are the sox willing to pay the price? We'll all know soon enough.

You argued for keeping Garland, who would be "the best 5th SP in the league". What I argued, was that I'd rather have the best #1 SP out there for the Sox instead of having the best #5 in Garland. But of the names mentioned as possible trades this offseason and the FA's--Pavano, Pedro, Hudson, Mulder, Chris Carpenter--RJ is better than those guys. For some reason, I rubbed you the wrong way in my posts. Yet you got a little personal and it was uncalled for.

He hasn't and won't. He's throwing a little fit over a few points I disagreed w/ him on.

Johan Santana came to mind but that was about it

To each his, or her, own. Myself, I have little tolerance for people who have such thin skins that they lash out at the slightest hint of criticism. BTW- "the best #1 out there", available via free agency or trade, is Randy Johnson. For what it's worth.

Whatever the case is, he's certainly in the top 3. Is that reason enough for you to throw a little fit over someone making a respectful point?

It's hard to say. We'll all see soon enough. I know the 2005 salaries would basically be a wash. Yet for 2006.....

Excuse for calling Johnson a #1 SP. But I guess you can name at least 5 SP's you'd rather have than RJ starting game 1 in a playoff series for your team, right? And relax cowboy, I didn't jump down your throat. I made a few respectful points of disagreement.

That's a point any team trading for him could and would make. It would bring down the price in terms of talent teams would need to cough up for him. Knock off the prospects, and would the 3 player deal work? I think it would

A few points: *Almost all people who favor this trade would say no [and have posted this] if any top prospects were included. With two guys like Pk and Jon, AZ would most likely take midlevel prospects at best in trade. *The Sox spending $3 mill on a #5 starter [garland] is pretty high IMO. There are vets who can put up his numbers for a little over $1 mill. that could be brought in to compete for the 5th spot *You are basically arguing that you want the best 5th SP over getting the best #1 SP. That's your right. I'd rather have the best #1 out there, over a guy who would be in the bullpen should the Sox make the playoffs. *Both Garland and PK are basically rent a players, who probably won't be resigned for 2006. So they and RJ are in the same boat--signed for 1 more year *Signing a FA, like the other big names out there, means signing another SP to an expensive, long term deal [when the sox have MB, Freddy and Jose locked up for the next few yrs--the risk someone will go down is greater with this scenario than w/ RJ for one, maybe two yrs

Whatever team RJ waives his no-trade clause for, should be able to sign him for 2006 as well. If I were RJ, I'd make sure I had an extension for 2006 before waiving his clause.

The key to me is two fold, just taking into consideration the proposed trade of PK and Jon for Randy Johnson, forgetting about what other moves are made [as RJ's salary of $16 mill and PK's and Jon's combined $12 mill is a bit of a wash, and shouldn't keep the sox from making other moves to improve]: 1] which combo of players [RJ and Gload or PK and Garland] helps the Sox best get to the playoffs, and 2] which combo of players best helps the Sox win once they get there?

PK and JG probably wouldn't be on the 2006 Sox. Comparing this proposed Randy Johnson trade to the Todd Ritchie trade is preposterous. Wells' upside was unproven. JG's upside probably has been proven. Also, Johnson is a BIT more proven than Todd Ritchie Would you propose signing JG to long term deal after this yr worth $7 mill a yr should he do what you think he'll do, 12 wins and 200 innings, if the Sox kept him? I know I wouldn't.

Gload was given extended time at 1B and performed. His OBP improved, and hit LHp and RHP, and did well in RBI situations. He showed better defense than PK as well. Will he hit .320 for the year? No. But can he hit .280 and make contact, hustle and play good d, almost certainly yes. Gload has always hit in the minors, if you look up his stats. It's a good gamble that Gload could perform well with the Sox. While he won't replace PK's power, Gload could give the Sox what many fans have been seeking to diversify the Sox RH power hitting, slow running team: a LH hitting, good glove ala JT Snow. 1b is one of the easier spots to fill, should Gload tank, esp. midseason trades. If it would mean getting RJ [#1 SP's are hard to find during the year, look at what it took to get Freddy] by all means, trade PK.

The Sox have been good about picking up guys from the scrap heap for cheap---Loiaza, Politte, Gordon. It's a low risk, high reward type thing. It couldn't hurt to get more competition in the pen. He doesn't excite me, I haven't followed Wendell lately, yet he could surprise

Another thing to consider, few teams will give up their top prospects for RJ. Getting and trading proven major leaguers makes sense. For RJ's $17 mill, they could get PK [$8 mill], Garland [$3 mill], + have $6 mill to spend on other holes. That scenario makes ARiz. more competitive than getting a few prospects who likely are a few yrs away from the bigs.

Well put. As long as the sox don't include one of their top prospects, this deal is about the 2005 Sox, not the future. And RJ/ Gload improves the Sox much more than PK/ Jon.

As long as the prospects were mid level guys, this trade would be a good one for the sox. Randy Johnson won't come cheap to any team. Yet the sox have Gload for 1B, and Johnson takes over for Garland. Both PK and Jon will be FA's after 2005. Most likely, both wouldn't be on the 2006 sox roster. Say Jon does have a breakout yr, [18 wins, less than a 4 era] would people want to sign Garland to a long term big money contract, at 7 mill+ a yr, with all his past inconsistencies?! I wouldn't. Jon may break out, yet I think he's more likely to be a solid #4 or #5 who can eat innings. This is still valuable, but not when the sox have the chance to get the premier SP in baseball. Johnson's thrown 240+ innings in 6 of the last 7 yrs. [with his knee injury in 2003 limiting him]. The guy has shown he's a workhorse, even at 41. He would give the Sox what they need: a #1 SP, a strikeout pitcher, who doesn't walk a lot of guys, and someone who can go 7 innings w/o breaking a sweat. He likely has 2 yrs left. Even if the sox had him for one yr [which if RJ OK'd a trade to the Sox, why wouldn't he resign if he wanted to still pitch] this deal would be worth Jon and PK. The risk of injury is there. But it's there for PK and Jon as well. Say the worst happens and RJ gos down, the sox would still have Gload for 1B and a SP who could likely give the Sox what Garland could--12 wins and a 4.88 era. It would hurt. But it wouldn't be devastating. [and after the Maggs and Frank injuries, the Sox will better prepare their roster to win games in case key guys do go down for the season--getting more contact hitters, better defense to stay competitive] As for the hole at #5---there would be a lot of options here to choose from. Guys who can give the Sox innings and a 4.88 ERA are out there for non-guaranteed 1 yr deals worth $1 mill a yr. until B-Mac or Honel are ready. But the 1-4 SP's could compete with any team out there. And would be set up nicely for a short playoff series, with RJ starting game 1.

I'm sorry if I'm coming late to the argument. But IMO, vizquel is probably the best fit for the Sox of the FA SS's out there. He's not the best SS. But the best fit for what the sox need now, taking into consideration factors such as price, the make up of the sox roster, etc. He comes for 2 yrs relatively cheaply [enough time to let Uribe mature, and allow Crede and Harris time to either perform or be cut loose], is a #2 hitter who hits from both sides of the plate, is an excellent bunter, high % base stealer, and is a solid veteran IF glove, [with young guys such as Crede, Harris and Uribe around him this is important], who won't hurt the team with silly mistakes. The point is other SS may have more upside, have longer careers, put up gaudier numbers, etc. Yet Vizquel fills some glaring holes for the Sox, and gives what they need from that position, with the flexibility to fix other holes for next season and the yrs ahead. He's not the only missing piece. Yet it's a very solid pickup if it turns out he signs