Cubano

QUOTE (joesaiditstrue @ Jun 3, 2008 -> 04:58 AM) where's shingo at these days? lol He is a pitching star now. Stealing home: In youtube, there are a lot of clips from Japanese baseball.

So Taguchi Kaz Matsui Ideki Irabu Ken Igawa Tsuyoshi Shinjo These are some Japanese players that have felt short of expectation to say the least. I have more but I do not remember now. To conclude, you hit right in the money with this: "people seem to expect Japanese players to jump right in without much adjustment." MLB and then the media have convey this idea but stats wise and performance wise, it is not true.

QUOTE (lostfan @ Jun 2, 2008 -> 06:31 PM) Sort of like I was implying but never actually said, it's not that individual Japanese players are better than individual Cuban players (or American players for that matter), it's the diluted talent pool in Cuba. Cuba has ~10-11 million people, Japan is more like 125 million with Cuba having 16 teams at the highest level and Japan having 12. So an ace pitcher from Japan is as good as an ace pitcher from Cuba, but there's just not as many good ace pitchers (or position players) that are going to come out of Cuba, and they're not going to be playing against the more skilled players. It is true that Japan has more population than Cuba, but population along is not the best parameter. Venezuela's population is twice of the Dominican R and has fewer MLB and minor league players. I am trying to convey that cuban defectors have performed at the same level and sometimes better than Japanese import despite the odds (losing time once defecting, etc). Remember, the best Japanese players ussually come and cuban defectors can be anybody. Sometimes the best players do not defect. Cuban junior teams have dominated international competition. You got the best players competing in these junior tournaments becuase they do not belong to any pro team yet. If you are a kid in Cuba and has some talent, you are send to special schools (academies for 5th-12th grades) to train sports.

QUOTE (lostfan @ Jun 2, 2008 -> 04:00 PM) I read all your posts (they're good btw) and I'm just going to respond as if they were all one. edit: those ERA numbers are really interesting btw. It seems to me that you interpret people comparing the level of competition within Cuba to high A ball to be saying the level of talent of Cuban players is going to be lower as a result. I don't really see it that way - baseball more than any sport (maybe basketball might compare) is a game of development and progression. In order to become better you have to move up to each pro level to face tougher competition and adjust to it or at some point you max out. So Cuban baseball is obviously a higher level than, say, semi-pro or college, but it's not quite AAA (Japan is, IMO). That's not to say at all that Cuban players won't project to MLB well, or aren't talented - just that they're going to take time to get adjusted to facing the best collection of players in the world and also get adjusted to American baseball and lifestyle. Cuban players are good, no doubt (as seen in the Olympics and WBC) but they only face other Cuban players in a diluted league. So the best players from Cuba won't see their full potential there. All this is JMO. That being said, I thought highly of Alexei when he was signed, but I expected him to go through a rough adjustment period if he didn't play in AAA, and he's surprising me right now. I respect your opinion. I disagree that Japanese is better than Cuban league. Japan has the same amount of victories as Cuba since the incepcion of pro players. Ussually, Japan send its best pitcher against Cuba and then looses against other teams. Japan finally won a major tournament when they beat Cuba in the WBC. If Japan is a so called "second majors", why their hitters see their power evaporate so much? How Betancourt, Escobar, Rey Ordonez and Alexei compare with Iguchi, Kaz Matsui and Iwamura? In AAA, Cubans hold their power numbers well as well as in the majors. Ichiro has been the best hitter of all time and I am sure he has been the best leadoff in Japan history. After Cuban changed again to wooden bats, many defectors have had good numbers in their A, AA, AAA or big league debut. Some of course have not done well or done well or so so and do not make it. SS Betancourt hit 300 for the first time in Cuba in his final season. He played 4 season for the Villa Clara Orange. He defected and misssed some time between Mexico and the USA. Seattle sent him to AA and AAA. He debuted in the majors just 3 months after his USA AA debut. Of course, Betancourt had some talent and probably he would have been an star in Cuba by now. SS Escobar was a bench player for Industriales Lions. He made the cuban junior team but he had some discipline issues with his manager. He played 4 season though he did not play much. He had to develop more in A, AA, AAA, AFL (hitting champion) because he did not see much playing time in Cuba. There are other older defectors that despite good numbers since day one have not seen MLB action because their age. Example, Mets Michel Abreu was the best hitter en AA once he debuted. Then, he had to miss another year because of visa trouble. He is now in his 30's and probably his time is gone. Barbaro Canizares (Braves) is still hitting and in AAA.

QUOTE (False Alarm @ Jun 2, 2008 -> 02:26 PM) FWIW BP did a study a few years back trying to gauge the level of competition in Cuba's Serie Nacional, their highest league. an excerpt: http://www.baseballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=3794 so yeah, they say A-ball. one caveat is that jose contreras was an important data point for them, and this study was just prior to the 2005 season. edit: i love alexei btw. ain't knocking him at all. Yes, False Alarm. I am familiar with that study from BP. BP compared our league vs Class A Short season New York-Penn League. Can someone name some players from that league able to come to the big leagues right now or at least be an star in AAA? I did an study last year or so. I compared the Cuban pitchers and the Japanese pitchers. Remember, the Japanese come to the states with Hollywood type red carpet introduccion. They are signed to big money contract and are heanded starting jobs. They bring their families too. Cuban have to escape first in they are lucky. Then, they have to go to the draft or go to a third country to beg for legal papers so they can negociate with more than one team as free agents. During this process, Cuban players loose a lot of time away from competitive baseball. Most of the time they start in the minors to regain their groove. Everybody seems to believe that the Japanese league is the second major leagues. I do not follow that school of thought. I am not saying the Cuba league is the second majors either. I compared the ERA of the Cuban pitchers vs Japanese, Dominican, Venezuelan, Mexican and Puerto Rican pitchers. The best comparison is with the Japanese because there are not too many like Dominican and they come from another league. Anyways here is what I found taking only their rookie season: Venezuela Team ERA 4.29 Japan Team ERA 4.35 Mexico Team ERA 4.37 Cuba Team ERA 4.38 Dominican R. Team ERA 4.43 Puerto Rico Team ERA 4.49

One last thing about Ramirez for now. He is trying to compete for a job as oppose as given the job. He is probably trying to impress so bad that he may make some mistakes for trying to hard. The other day Guillen pinch hit for him and I wonder what Alexei thought about this. Alexei has been one of the better hitters lately and he got pinch hit. How about pinch hitting for Swisher or somebody else? I do not think the Cuban league is MLB equivalent because it has 16 teams (too many). There are many players ready to play MLB caliber baseball like Contreras, Alexei, El Duque, etc. Remember, some players change leagues and they struggle and it is just going from the American league to the National league. Therefore, imagine Alexei coming from another league and another country. Alexei hit third with the Green Sox.

OK, folks. I am new to this forum. I have been reading your comments with great enjoyment, but somehow I had to wait for a long time for my registration to be accepted. Alexei like any other player will make mistakes. It seems that when you are a rookie, your mistakes are seen with magnifying glasses. Alexei is a finish product. He did not play 2B in Cuba except in emergency basis with the Cuban National team as a super utility. He played SS in his rookie season with his hometown team, the Pinar del Rio Green Sox. This is the same team as Jose Contreras, Danys Baez and Pedro Lazo who came in relief to shutdown the Dominican team in the WBC # 1. After his first season with the Green Sox, he moved to CF where he played must of the time. It is understandable that his has some learning to do in 2B and SS especially because in MLB runners try to break double play harder than in Japan and Cuba. We have a more courteous way of playing the game. That does not mean our way is wrong. Alexei can hit for some power and he has speed. The White Sox do not have speed in the lineup and Alexei can provide some. He is a smart player and even though he was tagged out the other day going from second to third, he probably thought the ball had a chance to hit the ground. Remember, he was given the starting job at 2B against the Indians best two pitchers and in very cold temperatures. He did not do to good and Guillen panicked. Guillen should kept sending him out there instead of benching him and bringing him here and then. In the last 7 games, Alexei has been the second best 2B in the majors offensively behind Casilla. Can Alexei come close to his Cuban league average numbers? SN TEAM AB R H AVE 2B 3B HR RBI TB BB DB SO BR CR 7 PRI 2820 455 827 0.334 134 26 90 397 1283 267 42 281 44 32 SN=Cuban Seasons Average in SN 403 AB per SN 118 H per SN 19 doubles per SN 4 triples per SN 13 HR per SN 57 RBI per SN 38 BB per SN 40 SO per SN 6 SB per SN 5 CS per SN 183 Total Bases per SN

QUOTE (Tony82087 @ Jun 2, 2008 -> 12:34 PM) He played in a league that is equivalent to high A, or a poor AA. He is learning on the job, and doing a damn fine job of it. He is signed for four years. He still could be considered a prospect. Tony, I am Cuban and I follow Cuban baseball very closely. There is no way that the Cuban League es A + or AA.