NWINFan
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Posts posted by NWINFan
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15 hours ago, poppysox said:
Of course, the players would be OK with it. Remember when in 1994 a strike was called by the players on August 12 that flushed the playoffs and WS down the drain. You can bet the owners will never again be caught in that type of weakened bargaining position again.
You really have to be kidding with this post. The National Labor Relations Board slapped the owners down for not bargaining in good faith. The owners were following JR's advice by standing pat and not compromising. Then there were the stupid replacement players that no fan really wanted to see. And now they are doing it all over again.
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2 hours ago, Sarava said:
Yep. Both sides are sleezy and would be more than happy to screw over the fans to improve their position in this fight. I find it weird seeing most of you all taking one side or the other.
At least the players want to discourage tanking. Tanking is something that should end.,
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2 hours ago, bmags said:
I mean April baseball definitely sucks. Every year I try to hold off until May, every year I can’t do it, go to a game in soaking wet weather while I wait 4 innings for a hot dog because the vendor staff isn’t up to speed yet.
but most of that would just become May baseball
I am done with going to April games. I have gone to many April games during the years, and I am just not doing it anymore. The 1999 home opener was played under totally miserable conditions. Felt more like early January than early April. To top it off, the Sox committed five errors and lost a miserable game. Of course, this season it is very possible there will be no April games. Perhaps no May games either.
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Expanded playoffs is just plain dumb and demeans the regular season. But, at this point, what difference does it make? We have no idea of when the players will be back on the field. Right now, no one is watching out for the best interests of the game. So, we can end the debate now. No one cares what we think anyway, and they will whatever they want include hold up the season until who knows when.
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13 hours ago, caulfield12 said:
There's no way to force MLB owners to value wins over profits
Well-written article. Made me revisit the JR only will spend enough money to ensure the team's around 2nd place (well, that was the case until 2016/17) each and every year, which was basically the Sox philosophy from the late 90's until two decades later, mostly under KW.
Interesting article and another indication of why I am against expanded playoffs. If profits can be truly gained without winning, there is less incentive for owners to build a solid team when so-so teams can make the playoffs. Then the owners can tell fans they got their teams into the post-season and act like they want to win when they really don't care.
At this point, we fans are truly spectators with no influence. If we really mattered, Spring Training would have started on time.
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16 minutes ago, White Sox Park said:
If MLB continues their petty squabbles over money, at some point the fans are going to become indifferent to the sport, and that bigger piece of the pie that they are all fighting over, will no longer be there.
This couldn't have been said better. Time for people to think in much bigger terms.
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7 hours ago, poppysox said:
Mediation was the way to go.
The owners are not interested in mediation. They are interested in breaking the union.
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18 minutes ago, Tnetennba said:
We could all be giddy with excitement at the official start of spring, but the greedy owners are still holding our beloved game hostage…
It's obvious that this work stoppage is going to be a long one. I wonder what JR wants as a lasting legacy. Another World Series? Or breaking the union?
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11 hours ago, fathom said:
Something seemed off about the whole experience tonight. Both teams played bad and holy shit was Collinsworth bad in the 4th quarter.
It was a tense but not really a great game. Collingsworth and what's-his-face did all they could to sell this as exciting. Give Stafford credit for leading his team down the field in the last minutes. But for a great deal of the second half, the Rams looked like the Bears offense and the Bengals weren't much better. I really don't think this will go down as a memorable Super Bowl despite some dramatics. Yes, something was off.
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17 hours ago, poppysox said:
True...but I like watching them on MLB.TV and having warm thoughts.
Right now, I have very few warm thoughts.
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5 hours ago, hi8is said:
This sucks.
It does suck, but we fans might as well get used to the concept.
In 1981, there was a work stoppage mainly over free agency. Eventually, the two sides worked out an agreement. We lost two months of the season, but we didn't lose the playoffs and the Series. Fan backlash wasn't too bad.
Maybe now fans won't mind missing April. In northern cities, that is not a great time to be at the ballpark. We will see how bad this gets. But, as I have said in other posts, any loss of games off the schedule will hurt the White Sox more than other teams. Many fans put up with that tank job to see future results. When will that future happen?
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2 hours ago, Tnetennba said:
Nothing says controlling the narrative like meeting on a Saturday outside the normal news cycle. Are they conceding that their hardline stance was always BS and hope no one notices to save some face? Or just hoping fans take less notice of another shitty MLB proposal so they can continue directing blame at the players? Either way waiting until a Saturday to meet feels awfully intentional.
You may be very right about the timing of all this. Things are moving awfully slow. Additionally, Manfred alluded to the fact that only a month of spring training is needed making it look like spring training will not start on time. Right now, I will only believe there's progress when I actually see it.
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2 minutes ago, Squirmin' for Yermin said:
There's always a price. I'd take him on in the right deal. I'm sure we've had other shitty people on the team in the past.
That doesn't mean we have to have another.
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2 hours ago, ScooterMcGee said:
Manfred scheduled to address media on Thursday. This should stir the pot a bit...
Maybe it will, but unless he has something substantial to say, it looks like spring training will be delayed and so will the regular season. We will see how short-sighted and foolish these people will be.
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10 hours ago, soulfly said:
No, I'm not. At all. I've said more than a few times, it's us the fans that get fucked. I want the owners to make less. That means charging fans less to go to the games. I am not pro owner, by any means.
I think this thinking is the key. Instead of fans taking sides with the players or the owners, we should advocate for our own interests. There's plenty of people and corporate interests who already profit big time. We fans won't profit from a delayed season or some dumb playoff scheme.
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2 hours ago, Dick Allen said:
Seems to me we don't have any of those things even as the owners take has grown and grown. Lets face it, both parties want as much of our money as possible, and the only "reward" we really get is hearing from time to time how much they both "appreciate" us. Like the old Seinfeld scene with the rental car, they know how to say they appreciate us, they just don't know how to show they appreciate us, which, if you think about it, is the most important part of the appreciation.
Being a baseball fan is like having a dead end job.
Dead end job is right considering that we've been through this before, especially if you're a White Sox fan.
In 1972, the Sox had signed Dick Allen and the team's future looked great. From advance ticket sales, they expected 50,000 for the home opener. But, because of a lockout, the opener was postponed. It ended up happening on a night in the middle of the week, and it was one of the coldest days of the spring. The team didn't draw half of that 50,000. The Sox had nice year in '72 with Allen winning the MVP, but it would have helped a struggling franchise to have a great home opener.
In 1981, things finally began to look good when the Reinsdorf-Einhorn group bought the team. They added Fisk and Luzinski and the team got off to a good start. But we lost two months of the season due to a work stoppage, and 1981 turned out to be a disappointment.
We all know what happened in 1994.
And now here we are in 2022. The Sox have some young players that need to get some playing time in to further develop. That might be delayed due to yet another work stoppage. Dead end is right.
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11 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:
Rob Manfred couldn’t tie his shoes if a majority of the owners told him not to.
Exactly. When it comes to the work stoppage, Manfred is nothing but a figure head. Actually, the Commissioner's office has been weakened for some time. Manfred isn't doing anything because he has no leverage to do anything.
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20 hours ago, Texsox said:
It's just a money grab. Players received over $90 million last year. Expand the playoffs and they would receive even more.
I know it's a money grab. I hate the idea of expanded play offs and nothing will change my mind about that. I don't care who makes the money or how much they make.
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44 minutes ago, michelangelosmonkey said:
I mean that's just bad math. 30,000 fans x $100 in game day revenue x 81 games dwarfs any other source of revenue the teams make. Fans going to the games matter a LOT. They want you at the game. And honestly...when Kopech is pitching and Robert has been on a hot streak...you want to go. I was at the Packers/Niners playoff game...that feeling you get when 80,000 fans are cheering in unison...not much in life can replicate that joy (or the collective pain when the stupid punt gets blocked and returned for a touchdown).
It's a matter of priorities. They care about other sources of revenue first. Of course, they want fans. On their terms. Many times watching a lousy- assed team. And if a fan doesn't want to waste his hard-earned money watching a lousy-assed team, they call him fair weather. But don't kid yourself. Ticket revenues don't mean what they used to and the average fan doesn't either.
If MLB really had any sensitivity toward the average fan, there wouldn't be a lockout. This would have been resolved a long time ago. BYW, MLB can stick its expanded playoffs right up its collective ass.
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The simple fact is that baseball economics changed some time ago. Fans who went to 3-5 games a year used to matter and now they don't. Fans who sat in the bleachers used to matter. Now it is the people who sit in the sky boxes. Why should the owners or the players care about the average fan? We can't put up millions of dollars to give stadiums dumb ass names or can we provide corporate sponsorships or pay a ton of money to sit in some special section.
I don't plan on attending a major league game this year. There is an un-affiliated minor league team not far from me. There is no cost for parking, and ticket places are more than reasonable. My daughter worked for the team for two summers and had the time of her life, so I feel a little loyalty. The beer will still be cold. The sun will still be warm. And I still can watch baseball. Not major league caliber, but I will still watch baseball.
I am tired of the arrogance of MLB and its demands for blind loyalty. They are not entitled to 3,000.000 in attendance and expect fans to sit in some stupid, insane upper deck. They can keep their skyboxes and stadiums that cater to the rich. The hell with the lockout.
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11 minutes ago, poppysox said:
To answer your last sentence...the 1200+ players represented by the union will start to weaken very fast once the checks start being missed IMO. As many pro-union forum members have pointed out....not all players are filthy rich. Keeping those 30 owners unified will be a much easier job. I want the season to start on time as much as anyone but I am not at all optimistic at this point. Like you, I hope the MLB makes what they think is a fair offer and the players agree to take it. If the owners make a reasonable attempt at compromise and the players overplay their hand we could lose the season.
I think you are underestimating the players. They stuck together in 1994-1995 strike when they lost plenty of pay checks. As far as the owners making a reasonable attempt at a compromise, they can do that any time they want. No one is stopping them.
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10 minutes ago, poppysox said:
Pro settlement seems right when the parties involved are millionaires and billionaires. This isn't Piggly Wiggly vs the cashiers union.
No, this isn't a Piggly Wiggly vs, the cashiers union. It is much more complicated than that. Very few people can hit a 95 MPH fastball or throw one. But you expect the "millionaires" to automatically cave into the "billionaires."
I remember when JR and his group bought the White Sox. He wanted a new stadium with the state paying for it. He wanted that stadium to have skyboxes and fancy restaurants. He wanted all parking lot revenue. Then free TV was going way. He said he needed all of this and basically got it. Then he decided he wanted to break the union because this wasn't enough.
Yes, this is different from a normal collective bargaining situation, but the idea behind it is the same. The employers get everything and the employees get nothing. And the owners know what they can do with their expanded playoffs.
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There is no need to expand the playoffs even though I'd like to see the regular season shortened some. Expanded playoffs only give owners another excuse not to build a balanced team. Getting to the playoffs should come as a reward for having an excellent season. Five teams from each league get to the post season. If a team can't make it to the damned playoffs under that system, it stinks. MLB can take this idea and shove it.
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15 minutes ago, greg775 said:
I think the Chicago media on the print side is kind of a mess. Isn't the Sun Times now owned by a nonprofit? The Tribune has had so many owners. I would guess the formerly great Arlington Heights newspaper has been cut to shreds in terms of staff size. Does anybody even know where the Trib is located now? It's not in the iconic Tribune building anymore. I'm not sure about the Athletic or publications like that if they cover the Chicago teams well or not. Weren't there a few websites that did a good job?
As far as the work stoppage, I am old fashioned but I still say with so many problems in the world today (is it just me or is COVID suddenly out of the news cycle? Don't hear much about COVID anymore) baseball is further killing itself if it delays the season til summertime. Just get an agreement in place. Spring training starting on time is important to America's psyche which nobody seems to care about anymore.
Woe is us without baseball (at least the age demographic that still cares about baseball at all).
The internet has changed things so much, and sports sections just aren't what they used to be. I don't think fans get their information from the print media anymore.
You are right in that MLB cannot let this situation go on like this. I don't see just what the owners will gain if they alienate fans like they did in 1994-1995. In the long run, will they really gain that much if they break the union? There has to be a better way than this. I cannot imagine what fan reaction will be if opening day is on June 1.
The MLB lockout is lifted!
in Pale Hose Talk
Posted
The point is that you placed all the blame on the players and acted like the owners were some innocents. It takes two sides to make an agreement. It also takes two sides to make a lockout or a strike. And JR was at the head of this stonewalling.
The NLRB was not a victory for the owners no matter how you revise history. And the use of replacement players was not an act of negotiating. It was an attempt to break the union. In addition, the use of replacement players was an insult to any loyal fan. There was no in hell I would pay one cent to see a bunch of minor league players act like major leaguers. The White Sox players who won the 1993 division title and who were in first place when the strike occurred would not have been on the field. I am not going to see a bunch of players just because they wear White Sox Jerseys. And, as a person who strongly believes in unions, I would not have crossed this picket line.
Most businessmen will do what they can do break or weaken a union. The owners are no exception. And a lockout is one attempt to break or weaken a union.
The players care little about the fans, but the owners care less. Your loyalty to the owners is misguided. And JR does not care if the Sox ever return to a World Series.