StrangeSox

QUOTE (Jordan4life @ Nov 9, 2011 -> 01:07 PM) What the hell is a "powerful" eyewitness.? lol. Did you see it happen or not? Again, the media doing what they do best. Someone who is credible, knows the accused (reliable ID) and has no motivations to make this story up. There are plenty of problems with eye-witness testimony, but not when you have an unmotivated person who knows the accused saying what they saw.

QUOTE (Tex @ Nov 9, 2011 -> 01:07 PM) Are you asking me if another teacher told me they witnessed something, I would remind them of their legal resposnibility. Remember the GA called his dad that night and his dad told him to tell Paterno. Even his dad didn't call the police. Now should his dad lose his job also? He dad knew about it well before Paterno? And I would call Child Protective Services and the police. Well, you've sort of rendered your questions moot with your last sentence:--ou wouldn't simply kick the issue up to your superiors through the "chain of command" and then wash your hands of the matter. I guess the analogous situation would be a teacher's aid telling you they witnessed the history teacher fondling a student. You both have a legal obligation to report that, but you would go above and beyond doing the bare minimum to CYA.

QUOTE (Jordan4life @ Nov 9, 2011 -> 01:04 PM) Again, too trusting? Naive? Maybe a little denial? Certainly. Other than that, no. Joe Paterno is not on my top 10 list for most hated human being on the planet. Those are all excuses for moral failing. They're not actual justifications for it. And, yet again, for probably the hundredth time, Paterno is at the bottom of the list of "people who did terrible things" in this scenario.

QUOTE (iamshack @ Nov 9, 2011 -> 01:02 PM) The point I am trying to make, that is being incredibly misunderstood, is that the media will trip over themselves as to who can articulate how sad this is for the victims, and then immediately switch gears and make this as much about Joe Paterno and Penn State as possible, so as to blow up the story for their own benefit. And yet, the kids this happened to are just as real anywhere as those that it happened to at Penn State. Ok, you won't get disagreement from me on that point. But this is a distinctly different point from Paterno's inactions.

QUOTE (RockRaines @ Nov 9, 2011 -> 01:01 PM) Technically Pennsylvania Law disagrees depending on if you think he was given actual information. I simply don't know enough (read: nothing) about Penn. reporting laws to make an accurate judgement, and that's not something I've seen in the articles I've read. I'm not saying I think you're wrong.

QUOTE (Tex @ Nov 9, 2011 -> 12:59 PM) What I read was this was from 2002 and Sandusky retired in 1999. Shouldn't the eye witness be the one to call police? Sandusky was forced to retire after an investigation into accusations that he...molested young boys. He was still allowed around the team and still was frequently seen interacting with young boys. Yes, again, McQueary is a bigger failure here than Paterno.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Nov 9, 2011 -> 12:58 PM) If this happened at "Insert your random school here", there probably would be no hesitation on the part of the university to clean house. There'd be no "Resign at the end of the year". I almost added in a lengthy thought on that but didn't feel like typing it.

QUOTE (Jordan4life @ Nov 9, 2011 -> 12:56 PM) Nothing called for him to do anything else at the time. Legally, no. (I know Rock disagrees). You could follow up on very serious allegations of child rape from someone you've coached and now work with. There's no "tough talk" in saying that he should have made sure this issue was taken seriously. He absolutely should be demonized for allowing a child molester to go unpunished and uninvestigated for years, leading to abuse of more victims.

QUOTE (Milkman delivers @ Nov 9, 2011 -> 12:54 PM) Then I guess we should be happy that it happened under Paterno, as otherwise it would get swept under the rug and perhaps go unresolved. The fact that Joe Paterno is involved is attracting a media frenzy that will ultimately lead to justice. I don't think that's fair. If this happened at Montana State, I'd think that there would still be criminal charges, coaches and AD's would still be shown the door, etc. This is only getting media attention after the GJ indictment.

QUOTE (iamshack @ Nov 9, 2011 -> 12:50 PM) Again, I'm not condoning anything that was done, but the degree of outrage towards Joe Paterno right now is simply out of control right now because everyone is fixated on the hero getting slayed in public...if this happened on the campus of Montana State or something, it would be a story for 3 days and then we would all forget about it. And yet the kids who were the victims of it would still be just as real. That coaches of a prominent NCAA DI Football team who have been media figures for decades and are now wrapped up in a child sexual abuse charge would receive large amounts of coverage in the sports press is not surprising, nor does it serve as an excuse for their (in)actions.

QUOTE (iamshack @ Nov 9, 2011 -> 12:52 PM) Turn on Colin Cowherd for 10 minutes in your car and catch just part of the story, and it would be easy to be left with that impression. I don't care about Cowherd or ESPN. I care about what's being discussed itt and maybe some of the links others have posted.

QUOTE (PlaySumFnJurny @ Nov 9, 2011 -> 12:51 PM) No one is saying that. No one is suggesting that. Anyone who "might be thinking that" is so utterly clueless as to not be worth anyone's concern. "giant morons might misinterpret something in a pretty incredible way a few decades from now" isn't usually a solid defense.

QUOTE (iamshack @ Nov 9, 2011 -> 12:45 PM) No, the problem is that Paterno is the story now. And if you don't take the time to actually read the facts, you might think Paterno actually molested children himself. And then 20 years from now, Paterno's name is going to come up, and someone is going to say "isn't that that old geezer who coached Penn State for 50 years and was caught molesting kids?" The media needs to be more responsible with the story instead of just irresponsibly making this into what will get the biggest ratings or website hits. The media's coverage and whether or not Paterno, McQueary, the AD, etc. failed morally are two separate issues. You can place some of the blame on Paterno but still lament him being the focus of the story.

QUOTE (Jordan4life @ Nov 9, 2011 -> 12:39 PM) He did his due diligence at the time that has been deemed appropriate. Yeah, in total hindsight he should've done more. But it's not nearly as black and white as some are making it out to be. He met his minimum legal obligations and did nothing else.

QUOTE (Jordan4life @ Nov 9, 2011 -> 12:36 PM) I don't give a s*** what he heard. "Hey Boss, I heard from somebody the other day that Rowand44 was dry-humping a 10-year old." I'm not sprinting over to the police station over some s*** like that. "Hey Paterno, long-time coach and now colleague, I just personally witnessed Sandusky raping a boy in the locker room" is a bit different from your dumb scenario. Get out of here with that garbage.

QUOTE (Soxbadger @ Nov 9, 2011 -> 12:33 PM) Its easy for people who dont handle or work with sensitive situations to say what they would have done. Its a lot harder knowing that if Paterno reported it, and it wasnt true, that Paterno could have basically ruined his friends life over hearsay. Paterno could have gone to the police with the GA, another trusted colleague. He could have followed up after the AD clearly found that something had happened and banned Sandusky from bringing kids around. He could have made sure that a real investigation happened and that the victim was found. Yes, again, he is more at fault than Paterno. That's been said many, many times now.

QUOTE (Jordan4life @ Nov 9, 2011 -> 12:28 PM) This just in: Joe Paterno is now more hated than Osama Bin Laden. GMAB. He might've been a little too trusting (of people he had every right to put trust in) and naive, but a villain/demon who supports rape? lol. He failed to take allegations of child rape seriously and was complicit in those allegations being swept under the rug for almost a decade, allowing additional abuse to occur to more victims. I don't think he supported rape or didn't find Sandusky's actions disgusting. I think he simply didn't care because he was too self-interested.

QUOTE (Milkman delivers @ Nov 9, 2011 -> 12:19 PM) What? I'm assuming that some people are taking positions for argument's sake, which is good and can make you stop and examine your thoughts.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Nov 9, 2011 -> 12:13 PM) Not if you violate the stated chain of command. I don't have a problem with an initial report to the AD. I have a problem with not doing anything else in the intervening decade. If your superiors ignore serious concerns, you have a moral and ethical duty to raise those concerns outside of the chain of command. edit: I do have a problem with McQueary not immediately stopping the situation and/or calling the police. "Chain of command" is irrelevant when you're witnessing a crime in action, especially one of the level of child rape. We're not talking about securities fraud or insider trading here.

QUOTE (Soxbadger @ Nov 9, 2011 -> 12:10 PM) You mean a grand jury after being presented evidence was able to determine credibility? Thats a lot different than someone walking into my office and saying one of my secretaries murdered a janitor last night and they didnt call the police but are telling me. Well the exaggeration to murder clearly distorts the scenario. Abusers don't leave behind bodies. Yeah, again, the GA had many more moral failings than Paterno here. But saying Paterno "is a football coach" glosses over a) his role and power in State College b) his relationship with both the accused and accuser. The accuser was someone Paterno had known personally for years; if he wasn't a credible, trusted person he would not have been given the positions with the PSU team that he had. I really can't believe how many people, if placed in the same situation, are saying that they would be fine with washing their hands of the matter.

QUOTE (Soxbadger @ Nov 9, 2011 -> 12:12 PM) Milkman, Hard to fire an employee when you as the employer are far more responsible. Thats why they are going to let him retire. Paterno reported it to his supervisors, firing him is a classic case of kicking your dog because you screwed something up. This makes sense to me.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Nov 9, 2011 -> 12:10 PM) There are plenty of systems where you have to do exactly that. If you step out of that line, you can be fired. Then you get a nice whistleblower lawsuit. Do any of these systems relate to child abuse and bar you from following up on it?

QUOTE (Jenksismyb**** @ Nov 9, 2011 -> 12:06 PM) Honestly i'm probably going to do exactly what Paterno did. I'm going to immediately report it to the higher ups at Penn State. I'm going to trust that an AD and Senior VP of a top rated college like Penn State wouldn't try to cover it up. If the guy was banned from bringing kids to the locker room, i'm going to assume that whatever actually happened wasn't as bad as what we're finding out. Would I ask questions? Probably, but only if for some reason I don't think they did enough or that Sandusky's behavior warranted it. But the GA didn't do anything else either, so I dunno that there's any evidence that anything further happened. Why would you trust people in a position of power not to cover up an incident that would severely damage the reputation of their university, their famous coach and themselves? Why, if a coach was banned from bringing young boys into the locker room, would you assume that the allegations of abusing young boys in locker rooms weren't that bad? How would that not set off giant flashing signs?

QUOTE (Soxbadger @ Nov 9, 2011 -> 12:00 PM) Rock, The article you quoted does not show any evidence Parterno had first hand knowledge. If the graduate assistance thought he saw a crime, he should have called the police. The second the GA didnt call the police, waited until the next day, you have a serious credibility issue. If I see someone being murdered on the street, I call 9-11. I dont go home call my dad, think about what we should do, and then report it to my boss. I just dont see how its logical that Paterno should have called the police (the next day when he saw nothing), when the actual eye witness did not call the police. It makes it seem like the eyewitness maybe is exaggerating, its hard to tell. No one has shown any evidence that Paterno ever witnessed any wrongdoing of any kind. FWIW the GJ already found his testimony to be very credible. And to be clear, people aren't giving him a pass. His (in)actions in this matter were far worse than Paterno's. On the totem pole of "s***ty people who failed to do the right thing to protect children," Paterno's at the bottom.

Tex, You're a teacher, and as a teacher, you have certain responsibilities to report any child abuse. That's your legal obligation. If you report that abuse to your principal, are you done? Would you wash your hands of the matter and say "well, I told my boss, that's all I can do?" Wouldn't you follow up on the matter, making attempts to ensure that the situation was being taken seriously? If I see somebody doing something grossly incompetent in my line of work (engineering), it is not enough simply to tell my boss and then walk away. Not legally, and not morally. If you see a serious problem, you need to stand up and make sure that it is resolved before someone gets hurt.