[Garcia/Garland to the mets?]

Ok, here's your question then, if Harden was injured but the A's were still at the back of that division, do you think they'd trade Zito? I'd say yes. If Harden was healthy, and the A's were still leading that division, do you think they'd trade Zito? I'd say no.

 

Well, they would have to be pretty bad to be out of contention in that division, so it's hard to say.

 

But if Harden was healthy, and the Mets offered Milledge and Heilman for Zito, I have absolutely no doubt in my mind that BB would make that deal.

 

BTW, anyone think Kenny would put the word out on Garcia to see if there are any offers out there where he could acquire the pieces for an eventual Carl Crawford deal? We all know Tampa can't take on market-priced starters, but they very well would take on younger pieces. I know it is a stretch, but I guess I can dream... :sleep

[Garcia/Garland to the mets?]

I believe the real reason Zito is not being dealt right now is Harden's injury, not the fact that the A's are once again leading the division.

[Garcia/Garland to the mets?]

I don't get the people saying 'but what if there's an injury? what then?'.... Come on, the plan all along for 2007 (as stated by KW) is that BMac WILL be in the rotation. That means whether it happens now or in the offseason, one of the other 5 will be gone and we're going to lose our 6th starter insurance. It's incomparable what you could get for Garcia now versus what you could get for him in the offseason, so you deal him now. Now. No, now.

 

And f*** Lastings. Whoever said NYY, NYM, BOS prospects have a history of being overrated is spot on. Of course there are recent exceptions with the Mets, but they've had too many prospects pan out in a row.

 

The funny thing is is that Wright wasn't even that huge of a prospect.

[Garcia/Garland to the mets?]

It was Duquette, not Phillips. Phillips was gone by then.

 

Minyana does have a reputation of shredding farm systems though, as he did in Montreal before leaving there for NY.

[Garcia/Garland to the mets?]

For one thing, they are signed another year.

 

But I smell what you are stepping in.

[Garcia/Garland to the mets?]

Between what Mark Gonzalez is saying, Ken Rosenthal is saying, and now Buster Olney is saying, Vazquez is not being shopped, but Garcia definetely is.

[Vazquez]

Kenny has said that McCarthy will be in the rotation in 07. Someone will be gone if not at the deadline than at the end of the year, I think most of us believe that is the case. I think since so many teams will be desperate for pitching at the deadline, that the deadline is the time to do it instead of the offseason. I also feel like Brandon will be able to do a better job than Garcia in the rotation, and that a guy like heilman or sanchez would be every bit as good as bmac was in the pen...so no real loss.

 

Yeah, I don't doubt that Brandon will be there, I just doubt whether a reliever is enough to get it done right now, especially considering the Mets are a possible WS foe.

 

I agree with the Rosenthal suggestion, I suppose. I could much more see something like Garcia to the Mets for a reliever and a prospect (Sanchez and Humber) maybe? I don't know. Omar probably doesn't know whether or not to pay Peter or Paul right now, considering the situation of his rotation and farm system right now.

[Hawk and DJ]

Well, I am not certain about what these guys said, but this does seem to pretty much be the consensus opinion around the nation, among baseball fans. Apparently our feed is the one used the majority of the time on mlbn.com as well as on the extra innings package. I normally peruse the opposing team's message boards while we are playing them, and without fail, there sprouts up a thread about how horrible Hawk & the DJ are. They are often described as "the worst in the league, or if not, the second worst behind the YES network guys (especially Michael Kay).

 

Thing is, I could give a s***.

 

Hawk and DJ's broadcast is meant to appeal to the average White Sox fan, not some opposing team's out-of-market fans. I understand they are also on WGN, which is a national station, but Harry Caray's drunken unprofessionalism never seemed to draw the wrath and ire of the opposing fans as Hawk does.

 

I imagine it has something to do with the recent success of the WS, as these complaints were less and less numerous a few years ago.

 

Finally, Farmio has his silly stories he tells as well. While Hawk might be pleasuring himself during the game to the good ole' days with Yaz', Farmio never stops telling us that Brian Daubach likes strawberry ice cream, or that Jon Garland went to high school with Garrett Anderson (which is right by where he lives).

[Vazquez]

Also, remember that one of the big reasons Kenny pulled the trigger for Javy is the fact that he was signed passed 06 and at the time we only had 3 starters including Mac signed for 07. With JC and Garland signing extensions it makes it much easier for Kenny to pull a trade with Javy and that might answer your question about why Kenny would go after Javy so hard and then trade him just a half a season later, iamshack.

 

Rowand,

I agree, having Garland and Jose signed really makes it easier to deal any of your starters. But Kenny has been drooling over Vazquez since 2003/2004. This is one of "his guys." I understand the $ situation, but this just doesn't seem to me to be something which would need to be addressed NOW. It seems like something that could be dealt with in the offseason, especially if the return on any deal right now is a reliever.

 

Let me ask you this. With what Kenny dealt to acquire Thornton and Riske, do you honestly see him dealing an innings-eating starting pitcher with Javy's kind of stuff, for 1 reliever? Now?

 

I just can't fathom that.

 

I could understand a Freddy trade possibly, and maybe to the Mets, since I don't think that the organization would hang Freddy out to dry by sending him to some schlep team (considering what he did for the org and his ties to the org now), but still. Read every quote Kenny has made in the past year or so and tell me that you think he would deal one of our starters for a reliever right now.

[Vazquez]

I can't see Kenny risking getting burned in the WS by one of our former starters just for the sake of acquiring a reliever.

[Vazquez]

I am not sure whether the NY Daily News report is reporting what is truly the actual situation. I am not doubting the accuracy of what they were told (although they do make things up purely out of thin air), this certainly isn't like Kenny to be so open and honest about things.

 

Secondly, this makes no sense whatsoever. Kenny was after Javy for years, and he pays a heavy price in El Duque, Vizcaino, and Chris Young, and now he is willing to give up on him after 17 starts for one top-notch reliever? I dunno, it just doesn't make any sense to me. Why make a rash decision like this when we are sitting pretty comfortably right now? We are not the Reds.

Also, WS beat reporter had this to say this morning:

 

"I don't think it's out of reach to see either Jon Garland or Vazquez move to the bullpen if there's an off-day and one of them gets skipped in the rotation. It could be cheaper than acquiring relief help. But my gut feeling is that Kenny Williams will make a deal. I can't see Javier Vazquez getting demoted to the bullpen on a permanent basis. Kenny likes him too much. "

 

This is just one of those things that doesn't smell right. I could understand Freddy, as his stuff has totally changed from last year to this year and he seems set on being an off-speed pitcher now, but Javy? Despite his struggles, I just can't see Kenny giving up on him unless he is part of something much bigger than a reliever. Especially considering the timing of Hermanson possibly coming back.

 

And again, as for Vazquez's salary, he makes $11.5 million this season, and $12.5 million next season. The White Sox are on the hook for ALL of that, however, they did receive roughly $5 million from the DBacks to help defray his salary. Any trade of Vazquez puts the receiving team on the hook for his entire salary, not any reduced amount that other teams have transferred in the past.

[White Sox scouting Chris Burke of the Astros?]

The guy's a former first round pick, he's still real young, gets on base effectively, has a little speed, and can play all over the field. He'd be an excellent upgrade over Brian Anderson, even with this recent surge of his.

 

Ugh. Did you read the post about his defense?

[Rowand coming back???]

I understand that, and that is the point I was trying to make. Arizona didn't give the White Sox all of the money they were getting from the Yankees. But if Vazquez was traded, other teams would probably expect the White Sox to at least kick in the same amount of money they are receiving from Arizona. If KW moves a starter, and who could blame him if Gary Majewski and a couple of other bums are worth Lopez and Kearns, its going to be with an NL club or an AL club with no chance IMO.

 

DA,

I am sorry, I was just trying to add to what you were saying in response to Witesoxfan, who not only made his mistaken assumption in this thread, but in the one entitled "Vazquez" as well.

 

My apologies for the misunderstanding.

[Page 2 article on Jenks]

i thought they were both bs. but thats just me. edited my previous post, i guess some of you guys think they were both fair.

 

I think this latest one is garbage. It says absolutely nothing.

 

From what I understand, as well as what I have observed, Bobby has been on his best behavior for the tremendous amount of success which he has achieved in just the past 12 months or so. The real story now is not to drag his checkered past up again without reason, but rather to celebrate that he has overcome it.

 

The article which portrayed that some 6 months ago was a much more appropriate piece than this last one.

[Rowand coming back???]

Arizona didnt pick up additional money more than the Yankees were picking up. In fact, at first they demanded anyone picking up Vazquez would pay his entire salary. They kept some of that Yankee money. The Sox are paying Vazquez approximately $10 million a year, maybe a little more. And if Vazquez continues to pitch like he's pitched, there is no way the White Sox will offer him arbitration in 2008 when minimally he must be offered almost $10 million.

 

It wouldn't matter if Arizona was paying ALL of his salary. Vazquez does not receive a check from the WS, the Yankees, and Arizona. The money is paid in cash and it is over with. So the WS are currently paying ALL of Vazquez's $11.5 million this year, and are on the hook for $12.5 million next season. Yes, they did receive what, $5 million from Arizona in the trade? So basically, that means the money coming out of the WS pocket is about $9 million this season and $10 next year.

 

But if Vazquez is traded, it isn't like that money leaves the White Sox and goes with Vazquez. If he were traded tomorrow, the team that acquires him will be responsible for the pro-rated amount of his salary this season (approx 5.3 million or so?) and ALL $12.5 million next year.

 

Of course, the WS might send cash, as the other teams had to to move him, but in that case, they had better be getting some damn good players back, not some slop of prospects.

 

Either way, his salary makes him difficult to move to anyone other than a contender, and we aren't giving him to any contender.

[Page 2 article on Jenks]

well, i think we can all i agree the article was a bulls*** cheap shot at Jenks.

 

I don't think the 03' article was crap, assuming those were actual quotes by Jenks about the self-mutilation.

 

You have to admit (despite our love for Bobby now), that at the time, that was a tremendous story. Are you telling me that if that article came out now, about an Angel's prospect, you wouldn't find that extremely interesting?

 

I don't think he portrayed Bobby as anything other than tragic, which, if he hadn't turned things around, they would have stayed.

[Vazquez]

*cough*7.5mill in 06*cough*

*cough*6.5mill in 07*cough*

 

I hate to break it to you, but he still makes what he was making despite how much cash the DBacks gave to the White Sox. So any deal of Vazquez to the Mets or any other contender would still require them to pay Javy his full salary- whether the WS were willing to send some of the money they received from the DBacks to the team Javy was traded to is an entirely different matter.

 

*cough* $11.5 million in 06' *cough*

*cough* $12.5 million in 07' *cough*

[Vazquez]

Folks, Javy is going nowhere this season. Only contenders take on $12 million/yr contracts, and there ain't no contender that is trading us what we want/need.

 

Forget about trading Javier Vazquez.

[Rowand coming back???]

Are you Ross Gload?

 

Ha, no.

 

Anyone think Ross bears a striking resemblance to the Milfhunter?

 

This might not be too bad of a deal if it were Vazquez for Rowand straight up... I mean yes AROW is struggling but we all know he is capable of getting hot... and lets face is Vazquez has hardly any value because of that awful contract he has... If we can get AROW, dump Vazquez, and not have to pay any of his contract then I take that deal in a second. However we'd have to make a seperate trade for bullpen help... and no deal on Mack...

 

How many times must it be clearly pointed out that the Phillies are looking to DUMP salary, not take on $12 million dollar salaries?

 

The ONLY way Vazquez goes to Philly is in a deal for Abreu, and even that has no chance of happening.

[Rowand coming back???]

CAREER BY POS GP GS INN TC PO A E DP FPCT RF ZR

Total as 1B 96 34 424.1 428 405 22 1 33 .998 9.06 .795

Total as LF 30 17 157.2 35 33 1 1 0 .971 1.95 .892

Total as CF 1 1 6.1 2 2 0 0 0 1.000 2.84 1.000

Total as RF 33 20 188.1 53 50 1 2 0 .962 2.44 .803

 

I left the games/innings here because I think it's pretty hard to judge people, especially outfielders, on 150 innings (that's enough for 1-2 errors)

 

So why not leave the games/innings in the Mackowiak table?

[Rowand coming back???]

Fine. Here's your evidence.

 

Rob M.'s career fielding numbers:

CAREER BY POS A E DP FPCT RF ZR

Total as 1B 1 0 4 1.000 9.87 1.000

Total as 2B 133 8 23 .966 5.19 .856

Total as 3B 292 18 39 .956 2.98 .783

Total as LF 3 0 0 1.000 1.90 .871

Total as CF 5 4 1 .985 2.26 .809

Total as RF 16 6 8 .980 1.97 .841

 

For comparison at 3rd base: Joe Crede

Total as 3B 1054 53 115 .965 2.65 .774

 

At 3rd base career, Mack has a fielding percentage barely below Crede's. He has higher Range Factor and Zone Rating numbers, if people believe those actually mean anything.

 

At 2nd base, Mack's committed more errors than most everyday 2nd basemen, but his RF and ZR are again respectable.

 

Can you post the same for Gload now?

[Rowand coming back???]

Simply because the masses believe one thing does not make them right.

 

You have provided absolutely no evidence that Mackowiak plays the infield well, and from everything we have to go on, he doesn,t because he hasn't played there for us with the exception of playing third for half a game and looking absolutely terrible. Some said he looked poor there because he hasn't played there in forever. Well, if he isn't taking ground balls there for us it is because we have no intention of playing him there and so he won't play there, but in the OF instead.

 

And if Brian heats up with the bat, Rob sure as hell won't be playing center. Which relegates him to LF or RF, which is 2 positions, not 7. Ross can play 1b, or LF. And the difference between Gload and Mackowiak at the corner positions is so negligible that it certainly isn't worth the value of a LH bullpen arm with a career 3.17 ERA.

 

Once again, don't misunderstand me. I am not saying Rob sucks. I am saying it was a mistake to trade for a redundancy.

 

Their numbers at the plate are nearly identical this season and for their career.

And I apologize for you, but as Ozzie said maybe Podsednik can play center for the Brewers, but he can't play center for a World Championship team, the same applies to Rob. He may be able to play 7 positions for the Pirates, but he sure as hell cannot for a World Championship team.

[Rowand coming back???]

You're wrong. You're just wrong.

 

You can use stats or your own eyes, and both will tell you that Mackowiak is better than Gload.

 

Which stats?

 

Gload has a career OPS of .751. Mackowiak has a career OPS of .747.

 

Mackowiak has had more experience in the field because he played for a s*** organization.

 

Don't say I am wrong just because you cannot justify your argument with anything more than "Rob is great, and he can play 3B horribly, but Gload cannot at all!" Or "Damaso didn't get along with Ozzie, so he sucks and has no value!"

[Rowand coming back???]

And he was useless to us, and I doubt many teams wanted anything to do with him if "all" we could get for him was s***ty Rob Mackowiak.

 

Everyone on this board will tell you that Mackowiak is better than Gload in just about every facet of the game.

 

Simply because he could not stay here does not mean we needed to trade him for a player we already pretty much had.

 

And he sucks now? He's having a fine year in Pittsburgh if you ask me, and the Pirates will probably more back than a bench player when they trade him in two weeks.

 

Once again, this is not an "I hate Rob" thread. But take off the local boy glasses and objectively look at it.

[Rowand coming back???]

Mackowiak's ability to play 7 friggin positions makes him more valuable than a headcase lefty who has already been replaced exceptionally well by Matt Thornton.

 

The fact that Gload throws left-handed probably doesn't help his chances when it comes to playing in the infield. God is nasty sometimes, and Gload is cursed with throwing with his left hand.

 

Of course, if he could throw it 95 with below average breaking stuff, he would be blessed to throw with his left hand. Such is life.

 

Just because one has played 7 positions does not mean he plays them well. Let's remember folks, this is not Chone Figgins playing all over the field for the Angels (actually a good team). This is a guy who played all over the field for the Pirates, who have sucked balls for close to 15 years now.

 

Rob is an average player. Just like Gload would be if given the chance.