iamshack

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Aug 25, 2010 -> 01:12 PM) If the Dodgers put him on waivers today...Saturday. You're saying if they dealt him immediately after the waiver period expired?

QUOTE (BigSqwert @ Aug 25, 2010 -> 01:11 PM) So what's the absolute earliest day we could see him in a Sox uniform if everything worked out perfectly? Probably next Friday.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Aug 25, 2010 -> 01:07 PM) I'm certainly saying it's plausible that he was using the entire time. You could make the case to me in reply that he only started using once he went to the Dodgers because he was trying to extend his career and although I'd be skeptical I'd have to admit you had a point...if it wasn't for 1 piece of data...the reported 2003 positive test. Yes, I only have 2 examples...but they're 2 separate examples 6 years apart. So either Manny Ramirez has been the unluckiest steroid abuser in history such that every time he's juiced he's immediately been tested and caught, or there is a significant history there covering the better part of at least 1 decade. If you're a GM and you're thinking about signing him next year, you have to keep in your mind the strong possibility that he's been juicing for years and is now officially off the stuff. If you offer him $5 million...you better get some sort of insurance on it, or do something else to protect yourself, because it's entirely plausible that his body is as used up as it can be. I'm willing to admit he may have been using steroids over that period. Personally, I don't really care. I think you're incredibly naive regarding who has used and who has not, and you would probably be heartbroken and want to quit being a fan of baseball if you knew who had used steroids over the last decade. For $5 million, I'll take the risk without thinking twice. Even this year, Manny has posted a .396 OBP. I'm not looking at any data, but my guess is .450-500 ABs at a .396 OBP is worth $5 million easily.

QUOTE (tonyho7476 @ Aug 25, 2010 -> 01:59 PM) Let me ask you this, after Manny got caught, didn't you think...hmm, Manny and Papi are buds, and Papi's numbers went crazy, after meeting up with Manny. That confirmed to me that Manny and Papi are frauds. That's a good 7 years...long time...and odds are that Manny started before that. No. I didn't. Let me ask you this. Have you ever watched Manny Ramirez bat? Do you see how fast he recognizes what a pitch is? Do you see how quickly he determines if it will be in the strikezone or not? Do you notice how hard he hits the ball to all fields? He is insanely talented. In ways that steroids don't have anything to do with. Yes, I think he probably used steroids. Yes, they probably inflated his already considerable talents. Do I think he has used his entire career? Hell no.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Aug 25, 2010 -> 01:55 PM) Oh man come on, you're not going to give us the "it was just a fertility drug" nonsense defense are you? Really, that's flat out indefensible. Anyway...I'm also counting the 2003 list which his name has been reported to be on. No, I'm arguing that he was caught using a masking agent one time. You're making the implication that therefore, since he was an amazingly talented hitter before that, he must have been using steroids throughout that entire time. That is a f***ing huge implication.

QUOTE (tonyho7476 @ Aug 25, 2010 -> 01:49 PM) I would be willing to bet, if it could be proven, that he has been using MOST of his career. Same with A-ROD. I think he's been doing it his whole career. You don't play 5 or so great years, and then decide to do the stuff, after you get a huge contract. And for that reason, you can look at both the championships of the Red Sox and say they are majorly tainted, since their main players were probably using at the time...him and Papi. Like a lot of people, I have reset my homerun records to 61 and 755. The decision to use steroids as a baseball player is so much more of a complex decision than you guys are accepting.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Aug 25, 2010 -> 01:40 PM) You realize...Steroids help you recover from minor injuries right? He may not have used his entire career. But if you're a GM...you don't offer him anything more than you would offer if he had used his own career...because it's entirely believable that he did. It's entirely believable that Manny Ramirez has used steroids over the course of his entire 16 year career because he once tested positive for a woman's fertility drug. That is a huge, huge leap to make.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Aug 25, 2010 -> 01:39 PM) His salary says otherwise? Am I the only one that remembers how messy that negotiation was for ManRam? How he was talking about retiring because no one wanted to pay him the kind of money he deserved? How he basically held out from the Dodgers camp for a couple weeks to try to get the money, otherwise he wasn't coming at all? Yes. He is one of the most highly paid players in baseball, and has been for most of his post-arb career, because he produces at an elite level. If he were this huge slacker who didn't produce, he wouldn't be paid the way he is.

QUOTE (NorthSideSox72 @ Aug 25, 2010 -> 01:30 PM) Well of course, no one really knows when he started. That's part of the problem. Wow. Both of you are really stretching things here. Do you even watch the guy hit? This is absolutely ridiculous. Guy has a 16 year career, no major injuries, and you guys are going to imply he has been a user his entire career. Ok.

QUOTE (NorthSideSox72 @ Aug 25, 2010 -> 01:27 PM) Correct. Right now, in the waiver wire period, Manny is the only good option. So, I can be on board with signing him for his production. Now in the offseason, its a whole different game. There are going to be moves, and other options, available, than a 39 year old who only plays hard on days he feels like it. With our payroll, and our farm system, unless you bring back Jim Thome, I don't think you're going to find much better price for production than Manny can offer. And what is with the "plays hard when he feels like it" stuff? His numbers show otherwise. His salary says otherwise. Even if he is a huge slacker, evidently he is better than 80% of the hitters in the game without even trying. I'll take that.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Aug 25, 2010 -> 01:24 PM) 2003-2009 is at least the better part of a decade, and I'm not going to think that he just happened to start in 2003 right before the initial tests. So do you think he started in 1994? The guy has been a freaking monster his entire career.

QUOTE (NorthSideSox72 @ Aug 25, 2010 -> 01:21 PM) No one is saying not to get him (of those currently discussing it here). Where are you getting that idea? Did BS or I say not to get him? I said I was torn, but clearly saw his value. What is confusing? You said two pages ago that you sure as hell didn't want to sign him for 2011. That's what I am arguing against.

QUOTE (NorthSideSox72 @ Aug 25, 2010 -> 12:13 PM) You're just talking in circles now. You take the hyperbolic case on one side saying you can't prove his laziness statistically therefore it doesn't exist, then one someone questions the logic, you assume they are happy with Kotsay. Most of us are in the reality between those two things. No, I'm really not, Northside. You're trying to pick out flaws in one of the best hitters of the modern era when your current DH is a Mark Kotsay/Andruw Jones platoon. That's like me turning down an Audi because I don't like the color when I'm driving a Ford Festiva.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Aug 25, 2010 -> 12:04 PM) But it's absolutely ridiculous to pay a 39 year old guy coming off probably decades of steroid abuse in a way that would only make sense if he is mostly healthy. Decades of steroid abuse? Riiiight. The hit when he came off the suspension last year. He's hit when healthy this year. I'm not saying he's the ideal candidate, but for our budget, he's a damn good fit for us. Now I'm not trying to be "pedantic" here, but Manny is one of the hitters of the modern era. His numbers are incrediblty consistent, his knowledge of the strike zone and his pitch recognition are amongst the best I have ever seen, and he will sell tickets. Some of the most vocal opponents of our current DH situation are also the ones who want to be really picky concerning who we bring in to rectify the situation from here forward. Color me confused.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Aug 25, 2010 -> 12:42 PM) I wouldn't rule him out as DH next year either but I wouldn't offer him $5-7 million when he's gotten fewer at bats this year than Thome. He's been injured. In no way does that fact that he's been injured this season mean he will be injured next season as well.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Aug 25, 2010 -> 12:22 PM) The real worry is...he's taken a lot more than 30 games off this year. Well he's 38 years old. This happens to 38 year olds. Again, you have better options for $5-7 million, you go ahead and make a list. Until then, I'm not going to rule Manny out as our DH next year.

QUOTE (BigSqwert @ Aug 25, 2010 -> 11:09 AM) huh? I was just providing evidence that he slacks when he's not motivated. I never said I didn't want him. s***. I'll drive him here from Milwaukee tonight if they ask me to. But that is 3 games. When you look at the big picture, for the numbers you guys are talking about paying the guy, he can take 30 games off a year, and I'll still be happy about his .900 OPS.

QUOTE (BigSqwert @ Aug 25, 2010 -> 12:04 PM) Missing huge series against the Yanks because he was "sick" even though he was spotted closing down night clubs all weekend might be one piece of evidence for slacking. Alright, then live with your pal Kotsay.

QUOTE (NorthSideSox72 @ Aug 25, 2010 -> 11:32 AM) You are either being intentionally pedantic to make some sort of point, or you actually believe that all things in baseball can be directly and clearly demonstrated statistically. Which is it? Excuse me? His lowest OPS for a full season is .881. Are you kidding me? Do you realize how good of a hitter Manny has been over the course of his career? Considering the options facing this team for next year, how on earth are you going to explain passing on a player that good? Now unless you can point out some sort of tangible evidence that the guy is not easily better than other in-house options, I'm not sure how you can dismiss him out of hand.

QUOTE (BigSqwert @ Aug 25, 2010 -> 09:55 AM) His KAAH when playing on a 1st place team or a team within 3 games of 1st place is 1.32. In every other situation he is at a 0.75. I'm dying to know what that is, Sqwert

QUOTE (NorthSideSox72 @ Aug 25, 2010 -> 09:52 AM) 1. No numbers could possible address this, and you know it. 2. If you aren't aware of Manny's tendency to miss games and play half-ass, then you haven't been paying attention to Manny (which I wouldn't blame you for). How are there no numbers to address it? Shouldn't there be some correlating statistics that show how much of a slacker he is? The only number you can really point to is games played, of which he has played in at least 130 games until 2009 in which he was suspended for 50 games and this year. Considering what we have and what $ figures you guys are throwing around, I'm not really sure how that even enters the discussion.

QUOTE (BigSqwert @ Aug 25, 2010 -> 09:48 AM) Are you serious? Yeah. Completely serious.

QUOTE (BigSqwert @ Aug 25, 2010 -> 08:36 AM) And puts no effort into the game when he's not motivated. Where are the numbers to back this up?

QUOTE (NorthSideSox72 @ Aug 25, 2010 -> 08:10 AM) I'm torn on the Manny thing. I mean, the division is within reach, and Manny would probably be a difference maker, addressing the team's single biggest need. But I agree with some other posters that have said Manny is pretty much everything that is wrong with baseball. If they do acquire him, I sure as hell hope they don't sign him for 2011. After everything that has been posted about the DH debalcle this year, how can people rule out the possibility of Manny for next year at this point in time?

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Aug 25, 2010 -> 08:11 AM) As I noted in the other thread, they think Thornton will be ready to go by about the end of this series. Ahh, missed that. Well I hope so, we're going to need him against the Yankees.