Jenksismyhero

How does that driver stay silent the whole time?

QUOTE (Boogua @ Apr 30, 2013 -> 11:26 PM) So there are rumors that Darius Paul and Ahmad Starks are going to both be transferring to Illinois. Wow if true. If Starks gets his hardship waiver and is eligible this year the Illini will look very strong. I got into discussions with people before in here and spacing was always the question. The additions of ekey and possibly Starks will be huge for spacing. They are probably better 3 point shooters than anybody the Illini had last year. I'm not really excited about either of these guys. Isn't Starks really short?

QUOTE (StrangeSox @ May 1, 2013 -> 08:35 AM) A 747 crashed just after takeoff at Bagram Airfield in Afghanistan on Monday. It was caught on a dash cam. http://www.npr.org/blogs/thetwo-way/2013/0...ft=1&f=1001 I saw that yesterday. Just dropped from the sky. I guess it lost all power?

Lol, what a reaction. /thread now

QUOTE (Soxbadger @ Apr 30, 2013 -> 01:42 PM) Look I dont care if he is fired, Ive never advocated for his firing. I was simply responding to the nonsense argument that he COULDNT BE FIRED because it was religious based. Nothing more, nothing less.

QUOTE (HickoryHuskers @ Apr 30, 2013 -> 01:40 PM) I would most certainly agree that in some other context, Broussard could have been fired or at least reprimanded for his comments, but ESPN put him on OTL and almost certainly knew what he was going to say so it would be hypocritical to turn around and fire him now. Dana Jacobson got suspended for a week for saying "f*** Jesus" at an ESPN event, so there is precedent. Wasn't that also based on the fact that she was drunk as a skunk.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Apr 30, 2013 -> 01:38 PM) Obviously his contract has to include some language allowing for termination if he says something particularly offensive to a group that ESPN wouldn't be willing to offend, that would be standard for their contributors at this point. I highly doubt a jury of 12 would see it as being terminated for offending people versus terminated for being Christian and talking about his Christian beliefs in response to a question about a homosexual basketball player. I'd take this case every day of the week.

QUOTE (Soxbadger @ Apr 30, 2013 -> 01:34 PM) It really isnt. If religion makes things "ok", then I can do it. I used an absurd example because that is how you test the legitimacy of an argument. Otherwise we have to agree that you can be fired for breaking the rules of your employment, regardless of whether you base it on religion or not. What rule did he break? You're just making s*** up at this point. You not agreeing with what he said =/= him violating his contract.

What violation? He said his opinion on TV? That's his job...

QUOTE (CrimsonWeltall @ Apr 30, 2013 -> 01:14 PM) It's excessive. I wouldn't say ridiculous. Saying stupid s*** on air should get you in trouble. Of course, since ESPN employs Skip Bayless, it's hard for them to fire anyone on those grounds. So you can say anything you want as long as it's based on religion? Why? I don't think you can say ANYTHING and just blame it on religion and be ok. But in this case I think there would be a good argument.

QUOTE (Soxbadger @ Apr 30, 2013 -> 01:12 PM) No it isnt. You dont get to say stupid s*** and say "Oh its my religion" Do you think it would be okay for Chris Berman to ask Ryan Braun "What do you think about the Jews killing Christ?" Hes not being discriminated against, its not because hes a Christian, its because hes an idiot who did something stupid. Religion is not a blanket get out of jail free card. Well, in the context of employment it absolutely is. You cannot be terminated for your religious beliefs. If Broussard was fired yesterday/today, it's obvious it was based on his statements relating to his religious beliefs. It had nothing to do with his actually employment. That's a good discrimination case from his side. Edit: I don't think this is absolute, but I think here, within the context of his statements, it would be.

QUOTE (StrangeSox @ Apr 30, 2013 -> 01:10 PM) I pointed out pages ago that ESPN likely would have a 1A lawsuit on its hands while explicitly firing someone for being LGBT isn't illegal. edit: would it be ridiculous to fire someone on ESPN for saying that blacks aren't smart enough to play QB even though that's protected speech? Protected speech and religious beliefs are different though. There's no protection for being racist. Obviously ESPN CAN fire him, I just think he's got a decent discrimination case. He's putting it out there what his beliefs are and if he suddenly gets fired for saying that, how is his termination not based on his religion?

He gave his personal views on Collins and more specifically whether he's a Christian. I'm not defending what he's saying, i'm defending his right to speak his opinion. He's saying I think it's a sin and he's not a Christian. That has nothing to do with whether he can play basketball or should play basketball. The idea that he should be fired for that is ridiculous. That's discrimination based on religious beliefs, which you guys should be supporting the hell out of.

QUOTE (StrangeSox @ Apr 30, 2013 -> 12:44 PM) But he didn't add these qualifiers. He stated, without qualification, that Collins cannot be a Christian. He claimed superiority for his version of Christianity. You're doing a lot of backpedaling for Broussard and I'm not sure why. Again, do you have a code somewhere for the ultimate definition of what being a Christian is/isn't? That's been debated for thousands of years. One guy saying something definitive isn't representative of the entire religion. People in this very thread identify as Christian and totally disagree with him.

QUOTE (StrangeSox @ Apr 30, 2013 -> 12:42 PM) These conversations about whether some athlete was "living in sin" and in "open rebellion against God and Christ" who isn't a real Christian because they committed adultery don't happen outside of religious settings if they happen at all. The bigotry and exclusion and condemnation is reserved for the LGBT crowd and not other sinners. Yes, they are. They are entitled to decide whether or not Broussard gets a national media platform. Broussard himself is not entitled to any platform. One that includes condemnation and exclusion of LGBT people isn't that broad. His statements don't do this. He's condemning them in the context of his personal religion and he's not excluding Collins or gays from anything. This is a serious stretch.

QUOTE (StrangeSox @ Apr 30, 2013 -> 12:26 PM) lol, I don't think you need a moral qualifier when you're telling someone they're living in sin, that they're openly rebelling against God and Christ and that they cannot be a Christian. It's nothing but a moral statement that implies that Collins will suffer for eternity in hell for his sins. And Broussard never added this "my version of Christianity" qualifier you keep tossing out there. In fact, he was explicitly claiming that his version is superior to Collins' own version. Right/wrong isn't based on religious belief. And it's clearly a personal interpretation. Is there a key to The Bible you know about that no one else does?

QUOTE (StrangeSox @ Apr 30, 2013 -> 12:26 PM) lol, I don't think you need a moral qualifier when you're telling someone they're living in sin, that they're openly rebelling against God and Christ and that they cannot be a Christian. It's nothing but a moral statement that implies that Collins will suffer for eternity in hell for his sins. And Broussard never added this "my version of Christianity" qualifier you keep tossing out there. In fact, he was explicitly claiming that his version is superior to Collins' own version. Every interpretation of the Bible is personal. It's a book with words in it. You can believe what you want to believe. Others in this thread identify as Christian and don't agree with Broussard. That he was speaking from his own interpretation is obvious.

QUOTE (StrangeSox @ Apr 30, 2013 -> 12:21 PM) Again, it's larger than just Broussard and Collins. Broussard is saying some pretty boiler-plate stuff which, again, is almost always directed at the LGBT community and not at any other self-identifying Christian who commits a sin. Which would be every last one of the billion-plus of them, including Broussard. It's not a topic of discussion for any other sin precisely because nobody really gives a s*** about the high levels of adultery among professional athletes and certainly don't routinely say they're not Christians because of it. Or gambling, or any other sin that people frequently commit. That it's a topic of discussion over whether or not someone who is LGBT is a "real Christian" or is living in "open rebellion" but it's not a topic for any other number of sins is exactly the problem and highlights how LGBT gets targeted. He can speak his mind as much as he wants. He's not entitled to a national media platform to do so, though, and we're all free to speak our minds in response. Would you be cool with someone calling for a return of racial exclusion in sports on ESPN? Hey, he's just speaking his mind! I thought you were tolerant!!! Tolerance doesn't require accepting bigotry as a legitimate viewpoint. Self-identifying Christians talk constantly about sin and actions that are not "Christian-like." They might not talk about it on ESPN, but when was the last time there was an OTL segment on the problem with professional athletes and adultery or gambling? Those discussions happen all the time. Whether or not they end up on TV is up to the producers. That doesn't mean those conversations aren't being had. And why isn't he entitled to a national media platform? It's a free country, ESPN can do what they want. And the last bit is just "his opinion is wrong and doesn't deserve tolerance." I think you're using an incredibly broad definition of bigot here.

But he didn't add any moral qualifier to it. He didn't say it was "wrong." He's saying it doesn't fit with Christianity (and again, his version of it). That's a key distinction here.

QUOTE (Soxbadger @ Apr 30, 2013 -> 12:12 PM) Are you just being willfully ignorant? If the bolded isnt judging, then I am not sure what that word means anymore. Eh, yeah I guess. I meant more that he didn't go to another level with it.

QUOTE (StrangeSox @ Apr 30, 2013 -> 12:09 PM) People justified slavery by pointing to scripture, too. Basically every form of bigotry (sexism, classism, racism, etc.) has been supported by references to some religious text. Didn't mean it wasn't bigoted. Ok? I'm just saying I don't see how it's bigoted to say here are my religious beliefs and he's not following them so he's not a Christian. It's pretty matter of fact. It's not a personal judgement (although i'm sure he has some). Under that kind of definition of bigot, you're a bigot for not being tolerant of his statements.

QUOTE (StrangeSox @ Apr 30, 2013 -> 12:05 PM) Every single person lives in sin according to every Christian theology I've ever heard. Yet the LGBT crowd frequently gets singled out and told that they're not actually Christians because of their sexuality which is a sin according to some Christians but not according to others. Are the 90+% of Catholics who support and use birth control frequently told they're not actually Catholic? Or every other of the billions of Christians who daily commit sins? No, they aren't. This sort of scorn and derision is targeted at a few groups, especially LGBT. And Broussard didn't say the softened-up version you've tried to pass off a few times; he didn't say it didn't fit his own personal view of scripture,he stated flatly that Collins is in "open rebellion against God and Christ" and that he isn't a Christian. You're pointing to the Paradox of Tolerance there, which is frequently brought up as a reactionary response when someone is being called out for being bigoted. But again, you realize the topic was about a gay basketball player coming out right? That's the conversation he was having. I'd imagine if he was willing to say that stuff on TV he's also got some pretty strong beliefs/comments about other people who sin and who aren't Christian too. And yeah, it's frequently brought up because it's exactly what happens. It's a double standard that you can speak your mind but only if you think like me.

QUOTE (iamshack @ Apr 30, 2013 -> 12:00 PM) I admit, when I first asked rhetorically if he wanted to keep his job, I was unaware he made these statements on OTL...that does put it in a little different perspective for me. However, this is precisely what bothers folks that are not big into religion: the need that religious types seem to have to openly judge others, especially when it is not really relevant or appropriate. First of all, one of the biggest tenets of Christianity is not to judge others, and yet, this is what they constantly do. Secondly, why does Chris Broussard, or any other christian, for that matter, feel that on the day of this announcement, it is appropriate or relevant what HIS beliefs or opinions of Jason Collins are? Who the f*** is Chris Broussard that any of us should care what he thinks? When did Chris Broussard become someone who's opinions on the righteousness of of ANYONE should somehow be relevant? I didn't hear any "judging" from him. I say him say what he does isn't in accordance with the faith. There was no "And I think he's gong to burn in hell" or "and we shouldn't allow those people in the NBA" follow up. I agree with you that it's weird he got into that in the first place. But it was OTL, and reporters frequently editorialize on all sorts of topics. I think it was fair game and that's why they put him out there.

QUOTE (Steve9347 @ Apr 30, 2013 -> 11:58 AM) One would think that a station that accepts advertising revenue from the "It Gets Better" campaign might be smart enough to keep the bigoted feelings of one of their paid "analysts" off the air just hours after a breakthrough story. There's plenty of third-party nutjob assholes who care about what others' do with their lives, they could have brought anyone else on to play the role of bigot. I don't see how what he said is bigoted though. He's not saying Collins is a lesser person. He's not saying he shouldn't play basketball. He's not saying let's round up all the queers and beat them in the streets. He said I think he's living in sin and not being a devout Christian, clearly based on his own version of Christianity.

QUOTE (Reddy @ Apr 30, 2013 -> 10:37 AM) this is a perfect description of the difference between those who are more conservative and those who lean more progressive - whether we're talking about social policy or... well... anything. if it doesn't affect me, it's stupid that we're talking about it. start looking at the bigger picture. it's really not that difficult. Oh f*** that. This is a perfect example of the double standard that exists with people that cry out about discrimination and tolerance. Broussard says that Collins being gay doesn't compute with his version of Christianity and people are saying he should be fired. God, how dare he have a personal belief and some conviction to tell people about it! That's so progressive and tolerant to be understanding of other people that way. So accepting!