Jeremy

I'm a huge Josh Fields fan but his bat is going to be mediocre at best at a corner outfield spot unless he has a huge breakout season. .260/.320/.475 is quite good at 3B but nothing exciting in LF. QUOTE(fathom @ Aug 14, 2007 -> 03:15 PM) The only prospect that the Sox have who should be off limits is DLS. Sweeney would be the first prospect on my list to get traded, as he just seems to be a Burroughs clone with each passing month. Gio still isn't exactly a sure-thing, and he could have some really good value. With Buehrle and Danks around for the next 4 years, it's not necessary to have another lefty. Is there something I'm missing with DLS? He's a good prospect for sure but he's only five months younger than Gio and his numbers are only slightly better at a lower level. I'm not really sure I understand what all the hype is about. I more or less agree about Sweeney. However, I'd be a little bit hesitant to move him because he might be our best internal option at CF next season and I doubt his trade value is that high at this point. QUOTE(Tony82087 @ Aug 14, 2007 -> 03:23 PM) Owens-CF Richar-2b Thome-DH Konerko-1b Dye-RF Crede-3B Pierzysnki-C Fields-LF Uribe-SS Is that what your looking at? That still doesn't work for me. Swap in Dunn for Crede and replace Uribe with someone who can post a an OBP over .320 and I think we'd be in business. QUOTE(NorthSideSox72 @ Aug 14, 2007 -> 03:56 PM) With all the shortstop talk... am I the only one who thinks that priorities number 1 through 3 are the outfield positions? With shortstop being behind them? Uribe is painful, but he is a stellar defender and does bring some power to the table (as well as a relatively cheap option). I don't want to see him next year, but on a relative basis, the OF scares me a lot more right now. I just think that unless your offense is outstanding 1-8, it's hard to be a very good offensive team while trotting a guy with a .270ish OBP out there every day. I'm way more comfortable with Owens, Anderson, or Sweeney in CF and Fields in a corner OF spot than I am with Uribe at SS again next season.

QUOTE(fathom @ Aug 14, 2007 -> 02:06 PM) If KW is serious about contending next year, we can only have one of Richar, Sweeney, or Owens in the starting lineup. This article was so stupid, as that's just an awful team that is projected. I think you might have to settle for two of the three. We're going to have to spend an astronomical amount of money and/or trade multiple starters to fill all but one of 2B, SS, CF, RF, and LF with players outside the organization. I think the best option is probably to go with Richar at 2B, Sweeney/Anderson/Owens in CF and use trades and free agency to fill LF, RF, and SS (with resigning JD as a possibility).

QUOTE(WHITESOXRANDY @ Aug 14, 2007 -> 11:59 AM) Agree with your post. Maybe a Furcal for Jose deal ? Then, Owens is not needed as a starter. Heh. That's be great but I think we'd have to pay close to all of Jose's contract or the Dodger's motivation to dump a bad contract would be negated. I think it'd have to be more along the lines of a few B list prospects. Guys like Anderson, Broadway, and Getz. Still, that's not enough done unless they're eager to dump Furcal's contract. Otherwise, you have to start talking about guys like Sweeney, Ebgert, and De Los Santos (I assume Gio is pretty off limits).

Some injuries are unforeseeable but it's worth noting that pitchers and high school pitchers in particular are far more likely to suffer career altering injuries than position players. Considering how weak the major league club is in the OF and at SS right now, I wish we'd spent a few more first round picks on position players.

Interesting article indeed. I like the idea of upgrading SS - that should be perhaps our biggest offseason priority - but don't love the idea of bringing in another low OBP guy. I hate the idea of playing three centerfielders, two who have absolutely no pop, in the outfield. I hate the idea of Fields spending anytime in the minors. I hate the idea of giving Masset a starting job over Charlie, Floyd, Gio, and Egbert. Edit: I thought about SS a bit more. Furcal might not be a bad idea if his huge contract means he'd come cheap. I'd probably rather spend that money on Dunn though. We should look into Bill Hall. His value has to have dropped some after a mediocre season in CF.

QUOTE(BearSox @ Aug 7, 2007 -> 03:56 PM) no way would we trade three possibly decent pitchers for a player who has struggled this season and who the Diamondbacks will be looking to trade. I think we're out of the running then because a player a year or two removed from being one of the more well regarded prospects in baseball will cost a lot more (think the Cameron-Konerko trade).

I'm not sure Pods would pass through waivers. If I were an NL GM I'd pay the million or so he's owned to use him as a fourth or outfielder who can run and pinch hit.

It's really a shame. We had a weak bench for so long and then when we finally brought a very good bench player in we used him poorly and then traded him for virtually nothing when he still had a reasonable option year left. Now we'll likely be back to having a poor bench again.

QUOTE(BearSox @ Jul 30, 2007 -> 01:17 AM) he was never really a great closer, but he was a good closer. He was 27 out of 35 with a 4.08 ERA in '03 and then 21 out of 25 with a 3.33 ERA in '05. Maybe we can settle on "decent" or "solid"? Not to take the thread even further off topic but while we're on the subject of MacDougal, have other people observed that his only real problem this year is his complete inability to throw the ball over the plate? I hadn't really paid that much attention but he's walked 21 in 21.2 innings! That's truly amazing. His K, HR, and hit rates are all fine.

QUOTE(GreenSox @ Jul 29, 2007 -> 10:06 PM) Just what we need - more career middle relievers. More Siscos, MacDougals, Riskes and Aardsmas. That's worked so much better than developing young players like Jenks and Thorntons; and the price of those middle relievers is immense. I actually think that not attempting to resign Riske is the most obvious mistake Kenny made with the pen. For whatever reason he and/or Ozzie never liked Riske but the guy is certainly not mediocre. He's had an ERA under four in five consecutive seasons and posted a 2.29 ERA with 82 K's against 20 BB's with Cleveland in '03. If he would've pitched for us at all like he's pitched for the Royals this season, he would've been our best reliever. The Royals only ended up paying him $2 million which is nothing in this market. Also, FWIW I wouldn't call Sisco and Aardsma career middle relievers since they're so young and Sisco has started in the minors quite a bit. MacDougal has closed before but was never very good at it.

QUOTE(iamshack @ Jul 29, 2007 -> 05:09 PM) Are you still sure it wasn't that absolute? I'll just let the other poster speak for himself but I find it strange that anyone would be completely opposed to even exploring the value of relievers or ever including one in a trade. QUOTE(iamshack @ Jul 29, 2007 -> 05:09 PM) Jeremy, no one is advocating that we trade Jon Garland for two bullpen arms. As some other people have pointed out, we probably only need 1, or possibly 2 for next year anyways. But given the sky-high asking price for any prospect worth a damn right now, I don't think there's anything wrong with trying to reign in we know can at least be somewhat dependable next year. I'm not sure I've ever disagreed with any of this in theory but in reality, once you start exploring actual names I think you find that the price for a reliever that we know will be dependable next season is so high that such a player would be the main chip we'd receive in return for someone like Dye. I just don't have any information to believe that relievers are any more reasonably priced than prospects. Linebrink was traded for a ton and will be a free agent after this season, the asking price for Dotel sounds exorbitant, and the post that started this very thread suggests that Houston is asking a great deal for pitchers with ERAs near 5 in the NL. QUOTE(iamshack @ Jul 29, 2007 -> 05:09 PM) Believe me, if our 08' starting shortstop can be had for Jermaine, by all means, let's go get him. Worry about the relievers later. But from everything that has been printed and all that Kenny has said, we really chose the wrong market to be sellers in. While the price of relievers is high, the price of talented prospects is higher. And given the fact that Kenny is not blowing up this team for next season, any attempts he makes at filling holes is better than merely adding organizational depth at this point. Add the depth through trades when he decides to blow the whole thing up, but not now. I think we'd be better off with a B level prospect than a reliever in his late 20s or thirties with middling peripherals and an ERA near 4. Are there any relievers you have in mind as trade targets, because I just haven't heard the name of anyone attractive thrown out there. Obviously you take a decent reliever over garbage like Dubee but I think we can get more than that for JD. He's one of the two or three better bats available and as many as five teams are supposedly discussing him. People are laughing at our demands for two top notch prospects but I don't see why we can't land someone who will be a top 5 to 7 prospect in our depleted system. Edit: I think the fact that JD is fourth and Dotel is fifth on Jason Stark's list of the top five players on the market is a pretty good indication of both JD's value and the value of relief pitching. Also, I should have mentioned before that if the price is not right in terms of prospects we can receive in return, we can always keep JD and likely get 2 of the top 40 players in next years draft.

QUOTE(iamshack @ Jul 29, 2007 -> 09:45 AM) I'm advocating that we explore the price of other relievers. It was never meant to be a controversial view. It was simply in opposition to the poster who said we should not trade for any relievers whatsoever. I'm not sure the poster's stance was quite that absolute. I mean you always explore the price of useful players when you're talking with a potential trading partner, no? QUOTE(iamshack @ Jul 29, 2007 -> 09:45 AM) The only controversial thing about this entire thread is that posters could criticize Kenny for exploring deals for solid relief arms. We've got some players that do not need to be here next year, We know for certain that the price for established relievers is quite high. The apparent price for these Houston relievers, most of whom are no better than what we already have, seems to confirm that. If you're suggesting that we discuss veteran relievers in a trade for someone like JD then that's going to be the main piece we receive and return and I think that is somewhat controversial because you're theoretically passing up legit young assets for an established but unspectacular bullpen arm. QUOTE(iamshack @ Jul 29, 2007 -> 09:45 AM) and some arms in the minor leagues that will never see the light of day in our rotation. Obviously, they are potential bullpen arms, but if they can be dealt as potential starters before they prove they won't be, they'll hold more value. We can afford to move some guys like that if solid bullpen arms are available. I haven't heard any of our young pitchers discussed so I don't get the impression that those types of players are on the table. Aside from the fact that good established relievers are extremely and often unreasonably expensive, the problem with such a deal would seem to be that most of the relievers on the market are only signed through the end of the season or at most, through the end of next season. I'm not sure which young pitchers you have in mind but another issue here is that a lot of other GM's are pretty smart. They realize that guys like Phillips, Broadway, and McCullough don't have bright futures in the majors and won't give up much for them. Players like Gio, Egbert, and De Los Santos are very promising and shouldn't be dealt unless we're getting young players who project as starting pitchers or starting position players in return. QUOTE(iamshack @ Jul 29, 2007 -> 09:45 AM) Wite brings up Wigginton. Well guess what? Look who's sitting in our dugout? Rob Mackowiak, putting up a .792 line, who can play both corner OF positions, and possibly both corner INF positions. Are you seriously opposed to moving him and a spect if he could bring a proven pen arm? I'm not... Again there's an issue as far as how much longer available relief pitchers are signed. As a soon to be free agent on a non-contending team, Mack should obviously be on the block but I haven't heard his name much in trade talks. I don't have any reason to believe that he's nearly as valuable as Wiggington regardless of whether or not he should bring as much value.

QUOTE(iamshack @ Jul 28, 2007 -> 03:42 PM) Haven't we drafted Getz like three times? Obviously I don't have contacts with the front office. Maybe we're plenty high on Getz and I don't realize it but what I normally use to gauge how much the team likes a prospect is how much press the player gets in the local papers and whether Kenny has any quote about the prospect. I haven't seen much of either.

QUOTE(CWSGuy406 @ Jul 28, 2007 -> 07:06 PM) Why do you say the Sox criminally underrate him? Since he's been drafted from Michigan, the Sox have been trying to fast track him but he was absolutely terrible last year -- his OPS was .647. He was doing fine this season, but he's also 24 years old and repeating AA -- he should be dominating the level if he has any hope of staying on the 'prospect' map. If anything I think you're criminally overrating Getz. He has absolutely no power, so unless that changes, I can't see him becoming anything more than a utility player. He might not be better than a utility player but I don't get the impression that he's on our radar at all despite the fact that he's posting a .400+ OBP this season. The lack of power is obviously a concern but he's a second basemen so I don't see it as a reason to write him off. Pods has no power and we've played him in a corner outfield slot for three seasons.

QUOTE(witesoxfan @ Jul 28, 2007 -> 08:38 PM) All Steve is trying to say is paying a high price for relievers is dumb because of how inconsistent relievers are from a year to year basis. Billy Koch was a good closer for the Jays and A's before he got traded for Keith Foulke; Koch then sucked and his career ended. Dustin Hermanson was signed for a $5 mill contract and, while he was oustanding when he pitched, only did pitch about 4 months of the 2 years he was with the Sox. Meanwhile, Damaso Marte was picked up for Matt Guerrier, Bobby Jenks was free, and Cliff Politte was signed to a minor league contract. If you pay a ton for relievers, it's bound to blow up in your face. The Orioles guaranteed about $50-60 million to their bullpen this past offseason, and it's putting up a 4.62 ERA. Why would you trade a legitimate prospect for a reliever, especially given how much work the Sox have ahead of them in turning this franchise around? Amen. QUOTE(iamshack @ Jul 28, 2007 -> 08:42 PM) Who is suggesting we pay a high price for relievers? Has anyone suggested we trade someone of value for relievers? I, for one, certainly don't want to do that. But if you're going to criticize Kenny for putting together a bullpen that couldn't get it done this year, I don't see how you can criticize him for trying to remedy his mistake. No harm in exploring what other teams want. I'm not sure what you're advocating then. If it's just that we should be open to changing the complexion of the bullpen, that's a pretty uncontroversial view.

QUOTE(iamshack @ Jul 28, 2007 -> 01:45 PM) The other problem is the price for promising position players has reached ridiculous levels. I simply don't think you're going to get these position players unless you unload a guy like Garland or Konerko. If you can't get a pretty decent position player prospect for JD then I have no problem looking at relievers but I think established relievers have an extremely high price also. If you do end up trading a Garland or Konerko then you only look at relievers as filler/throw ins.

QUOTE(Balta1701 @ Jul 28, 2007 -> 02:31 PM) Well, that's the remarkable thing about these bullpen guys...bullpen performance is historically so variable from one season to another that it's really hard to be certain about anything. Personally? I'm actually starting to like the situation for next year, given that if nothing else, we have a lot of guys with good arms/stuff to choose from. Aardsma, MMac, Jenks, Thornton, Logan, Day, Haeger, Wasserman, Floyd, etc. And all of them will have had at least a year on this team/in this system to learn a bit, and most of them are starting off with pretty good stuff, so I still find it hard to believe that this bullpen won't step upwards next year just off of the percentages. Good post.

QUOTE(iamshack @ Jul 28, 2007 -> 02:23 PM) I'd much rather just put Fields in left than sign Dunn for $12 million annually. I guess I'd consider putting Fields in left but I'm not a big fan of it because it could stunt his development at third and his bat is much less valuable if you move him to a corner outfield spot. If you non-tender Crede, you probably save $5 million and then you'd only be adding $7 million in salary if Dunn got $12 million a season.

CF is actually the least of my concerns. It might be ugly at times but I'd just assume throw Sweeney, Owens, Erstad when he's healthy, or Anderson out there. We might run into trouble but CF isn't a position that requires a great hitter. If someone like Sweeney could hit .260/.325/.370 - wishful thinking perhaps - we'd be in okay shape. For that reason I'd prefer not to focus on players like Byrnes or ARow. I think what we should do is go out there and get two legit corner outfielders. Adam Dunn comes to mind. If JD's market value is diminished greatly by his lackluster season I'd consider him for one of those corner outfield slots. I wouldn't be too excited about it though since we're talking about a 33 year old who's had a lot of health issues over the years and is coming off an iffy season. Pods is not a major league left fielder. Things were able to click just right so that he helped us win games at that position in '05 but I think that was catching lightening in a bottle. Since he hit terribly last season and has battled injuries constantly I don't see any reason to bring him back.

The guy's pitched five mediocre innings. I don't know what he's done to distinguish himself from guys like Aardsma or McDougal who have good stuff and have had successful stretches in the majors but haven't been able to get it done this season.

QUOTE(kwolf68 @ Jul 28, 2007 -> 12:34 PM) Even though I like Richar, I was not happy with this deal. I thought Cunningham could develop and was becomming a pretty nice prospect for the Sox. I also like Chris Getz and I don't see why Richar is so so much better than he is, although they are at different stages. I felt like we really needed to find a SS, because we have jackcrap there...Lopez and Valido don't appear to be prospects anymore...one of the reasons I really liked talking to the Dodgers (about Hu). I didn't love it myself though I'm relieved that we're not opening another huge hole with Tad's departure this way. I agree that the organization seems to criminally underrate Getz. I'm just waiting for Kenny to trade him to a smarter GM for a bag of balls.

QUOTE(TLAK @ Jul 28, 2007 -> 11:54 AM) I never saw him play but IIRC Cunningham was highly thought of by the FutureSox crew. So it's not like the Sox traded some bum to get Richar. Cunningham might've been our best position player prospect (and he's hitting even better with AZ), so yeah, we hardly gave up crap to get Richar.

QUOTE(daa84 @ Jul 28, 2007 -> 12:58 PM) so you just ignore your biggest weakness to shore up other parts of the team? look if KW was only looking at only bullpen help and nothing more id agree with you....but i have zero problem with him looking to bolster the pen, why do you? You don't overemphasize need. It's similar to not using your first round draft pick on a kicker in the NFL or using a lottery pick on a second round caliber center in the NBA draft just because you have a big whole there. In some situations it's just important to inject some talent into your team. We (will) have massive holes in both corner outfield spots as well as shortstop and a minor league system that may not have a single starting caliber position player. If JD or another expendable player gives us the option to add a promising every day player, I think we need to take it instead of badly overpaying for relievers that way the Reds did last season. The bullpen can be improved through the minors (Gio, Egbert), unwanted talent with upside (e.g. Jenks, Brendan Donnely), or free agency (Mahay, Vizcaino, Timlin, Williamson). If we add two solid relievers to Jenks, we have about 10 or 12 guys to choose from for the remaining 3 or 4 spots. QUOTE(iamshack @ Jul 28, 2007 -> 12:23 PM) That's another case of exaggeration. Notice how we actually win games when the bullpen pitches well? It's not as though there is no talent on this team whatsoever. We just need a real bullpen, like the other 29 teams in baseball. We have an aging offense that's 23rd in the majors in runs scored so we have a lot more than just one problem. I think that putting all of our efforts into repairing the pen and then calling it a day would be a catastrophic mistake.

QUOTE(Kalapse @ Jul 28, 2007 -> 09:56 AM) How else do you want to fix the bullpen? I thinks it's a good point in some ways. The bullpen probably couldn't be nearly as bad even if you stuck with most of the same pitchers. Perhaps more importantly, it's a lot easier to stumble into an effective reliever than a starting calliber SS. You know that Uribe is going to be awful next year because he's been awful for three years in a row and five out of the last six, some good defense notwithstanding. You also know that no one from the group of Pods, Erstad, Sweeney, and Anderson is going to start hitting like a corner outfielder all of a sudden. SS and COF really are at the top of my wish list.

QUOTE(rangercal @ Jul 26, 2007 -> 09:53 PM) A championship ring counts for something. Count was clutch in the 2nd half of 05 and yes, he was a top 3 pitcher from mid 05-throught the playoffs and mid 06. Well the extension was signed before the '06 season and he was signed through '06 with or without the extension so basically what you're saying is that you should give a player a large contract based on 20 starts? That seems crazy to me.