lostfan

QUOTE(Alpha Dog @ Mar 18, 2008 -> 11:24 PM) You were not. But maybe you meant to, and that's ok. Actions and deeds are not important, it is what you intended that is important, and that you feel good about yourself. In the bolded part, I was trying to get away from "I'm not racist, my family never owned slaves, and it ended in 1863" which I guess I should've clarified.

QUOTE(kapkomet @ Mar 18, 2008 -> 11:19 PM) Read my response to what you highlighted, not what race Obama is. You said "the root of our social problems come from slavery"... that's not true, in my opinion. Now what you're trying to turn this into is [racism is] "the root of our social problems" and that's not true either. And "white people" started racism? That's ... um... a little conceited, to put it gently. Slavery turned to Jim Crow laws which led to 100 years of direct oppression which did not formally end until it was forced to the Civil Rights era which was the beginning of the end of it all, but certainly not the end... all of which has set back the black race as a whole back decades and decades from where it could've or should've progressed to. And yeah, the people that did this were white, and they lived in America. Maybe I should clarify... the root of the divide between white and black in this country comes from slavery.

QUOTE(Alpha Dog @ Mar 18, 2008 -> 11:17 PM) Do you know any history? Slavery existed long before there ever was a 'White America'. It existed in Africa (NOT white), by Africans (also NOT white) and still exists in Africa (because of NON whites). Are we not talking about America?

QUOTE(CrimsonWeltall @ Mar 18, 2008 -> 11:15 PM) Main Entry: original Part of Speech: adjective Definition: earliest Only someone looking to be insulted would make "nation's original sin" stretch to "all white Americans are born guilty for slavery and must request forgiveness through black preachers". Thank you.

QUOTE(bmags @ Mar 18, 2008 -> 11:04 PM) i think the point was, since the beginning of this countries formation, racism (and i consider slavery such) has been a devisive subject that continually gets put off. ding ding ding.

QUOTE(Alpha Dog @ Mar 18, 2008 -> 11:04 PM) You know, in politics, specific words mean specific things. And I am sure that with this speech, every word and phrase was gone over many times and picked very carefully. He damned white America from the beginning, religious meaning or not. I resent that. You know what... comments like this are exactly why he didn't want to bring up race until his hand was forced. You just can't win. Somebody is going to find something wrong no matter what you say. So it's just treated as the elephant in the room. However, if you really want to be argumentative and prove a point you can try explaining to me, without cherry-picking, how white America (as a sole entity, throughout history) is somehow not the original source of racism. And by extension, how highlighting a fact like that is damning. That is kind of the whole point and if you're going to talk about race, it's unavoidable. You personally not being racist or bristling at the thought of being called a racist does not change this.

QUOTE(kapkomet @ Mar 18, 2008 -> 10:58 PM) Um... no. What does that have to do with, say, immigration? We aren't "enslaving" Mexicans, are we? Obama's not Mexican, and didn't have a Mexican pastor saying inflammatory things. And furthermore, slavery was around for centuries before illegal immigration was a problem. Hence "original." The effects still linger to this day, for a lot of different reasons.

Dude, seriously you are REALLY making something out of nothing with the "original sin" comment. Focus less on the specific words used in an almost 40-minute speech and focus more on what he was actually saying - the root of all of our social problems today come from slavery. This should pretty much be common knowledge. BTW invading Iraq had nothing to do with stemming the tide of radical Islam ala Afghanistan but that is a whole other argument.

Rumsfeld was a horrible secretary of defense. I like Gates sooo much better.

QUOTE(Alpha Dog @ Mar 18, 2008 -> 06:26 PM) I thought he was frank and forthcoming, not doing the Mambo. I'm really not about to get into an argument over this... it's retarded. No offense.

QUOTE(NorthSideSox72 @ Mar 18, 2008 -> 06:20 PM) Its not a big deal, except that some people want to make it one. These are the people who have no interest in what Obama was trying to get across - they are more interested in dissecting the individual words to death, trying to find something to criticize. And if I recall, actually, he said in the speech he HAD been there when he'd said some incindiary things. He admitted it. None of it in and of itself is a big deal, it's just people are going to great lengths to try and call Obama a liar over something he's really not lying about. Maybe he tried to dance around it a little at first as politicians tend to do, but in the end it's still a bunch of trivial details.

QUOTE(Alpha Dog @ Mar 18, 2008 -> 06:16 PM) And that answer in itself isn't 'spin'? No, not really... trying to take one specific incident and lump it in together with something from over a period of time that would almost seem to conflict but really doesn't, and be deliberately vague about it?

QUOTE(mr_genius @ Mar 18, 2008 -> 05:55 PM) If you look at my post again, there is a section at the top with a quote. It looks like this: That is what I was responding too. Now which part of my post goes against that? He said the guy was just like a black white supremacist shown in a sketch. He also used a racial slur, oreo, when referring to the CNN guest. The last part of your post just seemed unnecessary and out of place.

QUOTE(Alpha Dog @ Mar 18, 2008 -> 06:03 PM) If he said he never heard it, and then said it did, how is reporting that 'spin'? He was asked specifically about the 9-11 comments several times and he said he wasn't there, in his speech he said he's heard Wright make comments he didn't agree with, or be a sharp critic of U.S. policy since he's been attending the church, or words to that effect. Trying to find a lie in there is in fact spin.

QUOTE(mr_genius @ Mar 18, 2008 -> 05:45 PM) Seriously, that confused you? I don't know what to tell you. No, I understood you... I just don't know why you said it.

QUOTE(mr_genius @ Mar 18, 2008 -> 05:42 PM) Why isn't he entitled to his opinion ? Why are you lowering yourself to calling someone a race trader? Are you white? If so, you might want to watch your words as, because as a white person you have no right to criticize a black man. Thats the theory behind why white people can't criticize Wright, correct? huh?

QUOTE(Athomeboy_2000 @ Mar 18, 2008 -> 05:28 PM) This is a speech that needs to be run in its entirety on every news show this evening. It is THAT important. Agreed. It's something everyone needs to hear whether they like Obama or not.

QUOTE(Athomeboy_2000 @ Mar 18, 2008 -> 05:12 PM) If she were to try and make a speech on race, she'll get destroyed by the medai. She has NO street cred on race. She is a privileged white woman. I saw a comment on CNN where somebody said since Obama grew up mostly overseas and was raised by a white mother that he has no connections to American slavery and isn't qualified to talk about racial issues... lol, people are so damn stupid and I guess they can make themselves believe anything. In the same comment thread I saw someone say "where is this white mother Obama keeps talking about and why haven't we seen her? Obama is just another liar!" The thread closed before I could tell her Obama's mother has been dead for a long time.

QUOTE(NorthSideSox72 @ Mar 18, 2008 -> 04:58 PM) He has been. I've been saying for a while, relative to the other candidates in either party, I think Obama is by far the most forthright. This is no different. McCain really isn't so bad either IMO, but compared to... say... Hillary? Oh god yes. He only hasn't been frank if that's what you're trying to make yourself believe. You have to cherry-pick to support that.

QUOTE(jackie hayes @ Mar 18, 2008 -> 03:22 PM) That's not the color, that's the force of my insight. You are quite welcome.

That one burns holes in my retina.

QUOTE(kapkomet @ Mar 18, 2008 -> 02:43 PM) Noooo... I just typo'd it. We're NOT racist was the point. Ooops. For once, I was being nice. I wasn't meaning to sound like Obama, but apparently I do. I just can't work a room like he can. I think that comment exposed you as a closet racist. You've just been outed. No sense hiding it now. btw, open-ended question: which one is the correct shade of green?

Agree 100% with NSS72, and with the general spirit behind kapomet's quoted post.

The thing is it's completely and totally blunt and honest. And he talks about both perspectives and how it gets perpetuated and nothing ever changes. He's absolutely right.

Judging by the comments I see people making on places like CNN, most of the people talking haven't even bothered to watch or read the speech yet. Which is pretty disappointing and ironic. Ironic that people will say something like "it's just another speech" or "I don't care what he says, blah blah blah" when everything he needed to address hit the nail on the head... but they still want to buy into the headlines and soundbites, and take them at face value.