Soxbadger

QUOTE (Steve9347 @ Feb 14, 2013 -> 11:58 AM) Yes, I'm sure Shaq was just terrified of Kwame Brown and that's why the league made sure no more Kwames came around. No you are missing the point. Its why someone like Shaq, doesnt care. Once he is already in the league, he doesnt care if someone else cant get in. Its just like the drinking age of 21. Once YOU turn 21, you dont care about the people who cant drink anymore.

QUOTE (Steve9347 @ Feb 14, 2013 -> 11:57 AM) If it makes the on-court product suffer and the ratings go down and the interest in the league dwindle, then it's a problem. Hence why the NBA created the rule in the first place. So would it be okay if the league banned white players if it could be proven that the ratings would go up, that the on court product would be better and that the NBA would make more money? The answer is no, because discrimination whether it be due to age, race, etc, is unfair. Unless (imo) you can show that there is a public policy reason, that is that the people of the United States will be harmed unless we create an age restriction. Otherwise I think its age discrimination and I do not believe US law should allow that. Merit based is quite different, and this is not merit based.

Its funny that you guys are protecting this, when even states are starting to say that its wrong: http://espn.go.com/college-sports/story/_/...athletes-pac-12 So I guess some other people think its kind of unfair too.

QUOTE (Jenksismyb**** @ Feb 14, 2013 -> 11:50 AM) Keep people down? What are you talking about? If you're good enough to play professional sports, you'll get there, even if you have to wait a measly year or three to do it. And what does that do for the people who are already in league? It puts a barrier up against the competition from outsiders. Hence you keep the people outside, down. This is why the NBA/NFL players have no problem with it. It lessons competition by restricting supply. Id think people who are free market economists wouldnt like this type of market manipulation.

And I want whats good for the 18 year old kid because I think that a group of millionaires are in a better position to absorb a mistake than an 18 year old. If NBA executives cant keep their dick in their pants over 18 year olds, thats their problem, no reason to punish the kid who is getting generational wealth, so much that potentially his grandchildren would never have to work.

wite, I said "he still ended up playing in the nfl and things worked out" But at the moment Evans got injured, there were serious concerns about what would happen. Its just unnecessary risk. And I hate that.

Jake, We can always say "Anyone can do whatever the hell they want". The question is, whether or not it is fair, and whether as a society we believe that these laws are just. I do not. Its not just in the NBA, I do not like barriers of entry in almost every single field. They are generally created to screw people. That is my personal opinion. I work in a filed that has these hilarious barriers. Just because you overcame them does not mean you are good or better than some other guy who didnt. I dont like blanket arbitrary rules. Some people are fine with them. I just am not. So its not just the NBA/NFL, its a much broader social argument about how certain people/classes use barriers to keep other people down. It generally derives from disproportionate bargaining power or wealth. In this case you have both on the side of the NBA, which is why its pretty egregious.

QUOTE (Steve9347 @ Feb 14, 2013 -> 11:41 AM) Successful college teams and interest in the NCAA allows scholarships to be given across all sports - women's/men's etc. Great point. BUT OH NO NERLENS NOEL WILL ONLY GO 5TH IN THE DRAFT INSTEAD OF 1ST OH NOOOO WHAT WILL HE DO WITH HIS LIFE?! What if he doesnt get drafted in the first round? What if his knee gets infected and his leg is amputated? Its really easy to say "Oh who cares" and give the BEST CASE SCENARIO. There was a pretty famous Wisconsin player named Lee Evans who came back to school for another year. He had a devastating knee injury. It hurt his draft stock. He ended up still playing in the NFL and things worked out. But I will never forget the moment when I thought that this poor guy had given up generational wealth over a stupid college game. And I love college sports, its just not worth it for some of them.

QUOTE (Jenksismyb**** @ Feb 14, 2013 -> 11:37 AM) Then say goodbye to womens sports and basically every sport but basketball and football for most universities. On top of that, how would you go about determining what a player is worth in college? I hate the NCAA as much as the next guy, but paying athletes IMO is a terribly stupid idea and would absolutely kill everything that's special about college sports. I'm fine with schools profiting off of a few star athletes. More people profit from that system. Which is why I want to keep the systems separate. Those guys who dont really want to be a part of the college system, can go to the pros and they dont have to corrupt the NCAA further. Those who want to be there, they understood the agreement when they came to play.

Steve, Why arent you listing all the bad picks that went to college? Someone drafted Sam Bowie over MJ. Someone drafted Oden over Durant. I think there are more bad picks than good picks, and since the majority of picks went to college...

QUOTE (Jenksismyb**** @ Feb 14, 2013 -> 11:33 AM) They are compensated, not only with their "education," room and board, food, perks, etc. but also by the free marketing/advertising they get for their future careers (speaking to the "stars" of college athletics. Its true they are compensated. What I am talking about is the vast difference in negotiating power. Even if a college wants to do more for a kid (give them more perks etc) they arent able to because of the NCAA. That is part of the reason I hate the NBA rule so much. If these colleges were allowed to break the bank and do whatever they wanted for the kids, then it would at least be somewhat fair to have them go to college. But as it is, they cant get paid when they are in the NCAA, so its a double screw job.

QUOTE (witesoxfan @ Feb 14, 2013 -> 11:27 AM) If the NFL allowed teams to draft 18 year olds, don't you think they'd develop a minor league system (either in conjunction with the AFL or independently or otherwise) and that they'd expand the draft? Increase it to 20 rounds and allow for like 47 man rosters for the NFML Most likely, and this very well could give those kids a better chance at succeeding than 1 year of college. It would be interesting to see the success rate of baseball players who went to college versus those who went to the minors.

QUOTE (Jake @ Feb 14, 2013 -> 11:25 AM) I have zero problem with it. It makes the hiring process more accurate and forces these guys to have something that resembles a real world experience before they're left on their own in the NBA. The NBA wants grown men and this makes you prove you can live without your parents for at least a year. As a human being, it benefits you immensely even if you do not graduate. If you get hurt, you're being paid to go to school so you'll still be better off than your average joe. But this isnt true. If a 20 year old, who lived with his parents, never went to HS, was the best basketball player in the world, he could be drafted. If he cant read, he can be drafted. It has nothing to do with preparing these kids. Otherwise there would be a MERIT requirement.

QUOTE (Steve9347 @ Feb 14, 2013 -> 11:23 AM) This is the dumbest, most irrelevant post I've read in awhile. No its the best post, because not 1 person in this thread as an 18 year old would have liked to have been told: "You cant get paid $10million dollars because we have an arbitrary rule, so you have to play next year at a risk to yourself and potentially not get the $10mil." Thats just insane.

QUOTE (Steve9347 @ Feb 14, 2013 -> 11:20 AM) He could have chosen to get paid plenty of money to play overseas. He chose the national spotlight and the p**** train. Ok, the p**** train would have happened overseas, too. Playing overseas is not a viable option. Many times they force them to sign multi year contracts with buyouts that become difficult. Furthermore they are going to a foreign country, where they dont speak the language, where they are likely ill equipped to succeed. No I dont think we should be forcing 18 year olds to go to Europe, just because the NBA is to stupid to rein in its drafting.

QUOTE (StrangeSox @ Feb 14, 2013 -> 11:19 AM) Allowing parents to sign over a minor's future employment options (restricted to play for that team) seems like a potential issue. Thats just called parental rights. Parents can dick their kids pretty hardcore under US law.

QUOTE (Steve9347 @ Feb 14, 2013 -> 11:17 AM) I don't see how Nerlens Noel was punished by being given a free ride for a year of college. Steve, You are looking for a new job right? Imagine if before you could get your new job, they told you that you had to take mind altering drugs for the next year, and while 90% of the time it did nothing and youll be fine, 10% of the time it made you useless and youll get no job. Would you think thats fair? Or would you just prefer to be paid today, instead of taking the 10% chance that you wont be employable next year? I cant imagine youd prefer the no reward complete risk option. Because lets be honest 1 year of college isnt even worth $1mil, let alone $10mil which is what he could have gotten for the life of just 1 contract.

QUOTE (LittleHurt05 @ Feb 14, 2013 -> 11:14 AM) I think that's what they do in European soccer. Manchester United will see a 9-year old tearing it up, and they will sign him and put him in their camp. Most of the youngsters never make it, but they are signed from a very young age. Not just in Europe but in South America as well. But the way to prevent the abuse, is to force the team to actually use a roster space on the talent. No one is drafting a 6 year old and using a roster space on them.

So instead of the NBA being punished for the NBA being stupid, we are going to create rules to punish 18 year olds. To me that doesnt seem fair. This is basically like creating a rule in MLB that no teams can sign Japanese players unless they play 1 year in the minors first, because to many MLB teams were making bad decisions about Japanese players. Thats on the hundred million dollar organization for being stupid. Why should the kid who just got paid generational wealth be the one to blame? He made the smart decision, he got paid before people realized he sucked. Thats called being smart, the NBA just doesnt want to have to think.

NBA teams should be able to draft Lebrons kid. Now obviously US law would make it pretty difficult for that kid to be a worthwhile, but an NBA team should absolutely be able to waste $5mil per year and a roster space on a 5 year old. Hollywood hires child actors.

QUOTE (witesoxfan @ Feb 14, 2013 -> 10:55 AM) Because the NBA requires you have experience in a different market before entering. They are an elite organization in American society, they can do so. No they dont. If you sit out for 1 year and do nothing but get high and play video games, you can be drafted. They do not want to tie this to merit at all.

QUOTE (KyYlE23 @ Feb 14, 2013 -> 10:44 AM) Are they able to hire an agent though? I think that is the kicker with NFL/NBA, once they hire an agent they remove their amateur status Id be fine if the rule was that you can enter the NBA draft, but you cant hire an agent if you want to retain eligibility. That way if you are not drafted, you just go to college. Maybe the rule is that if you go into the draft and you arent drafted you cant enter again for 2 years. That way you can choose when you want to test the market. QUOTE (StrangeSox @ Feb 14, 2013 -> 10:46 AM) I'd be more accepting of the current age restrictions if they could be adequately compensated for the billions of dollars they generate. Completely agree. If they were making $50k a year, they could use that money to buy insurance etc. QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Feb 14, 2013 -> 10:47 AM) Age requirements in the NFL especially are so underdeveloped kids don't get killed by much bigger and more mature players. And why can't private industry regulate itself, why government can and should? That doesn't make any sense. Ive only discussed the NBA. The NFL is different because you can at least argue that it is for the safety of the players and in the football it is widely accepted to have rules about age/weight classes even when kids are young. In basketball there are stories of 8th graders on varsity teams etc. Because basketball is not as physical. Why cant an industry discriminate? I dont know because we have laws against that. Whether they be anti-trust or discrimination, the law generally does not allow for a group of people to arbitrarily create a rule that prevents access to other people. Usually in order to do something like that, you need a public policy concern. Hence why being a lawyer/dr isnt tied to age, it is tied to merit. Because its patently unfair to say that someone who is 17 isnt as good as someone who is 18, even if every merit based test would suggest otherwise. Age in and of itself is generally not a good indication of skill or talent level. That being said, because the rules are made by people over 18, it is okay to discriminate based on youth, but it is not okay to discriminate based on being to old. For example, if the NFLset a rule that you have to retire when you hit 35, it would likely be perceived as unconstitutional. Yet when they make a rule that you have to be X years old to enter, its okay. That is the type of hypocrisy that I cant stand.

QUOTE (ChiSox_Sonix @ Feb 14, 2013 -> 10:34 AM) They should do what baseball does. If you wanna come out after high school, go for it, if you don't - three years I also believe that baseball allows for a player to be drafted multiple times and not lose eligibility. Im fine with some restrictions. I just think that they should be in favor of the student, not in favor of the professional league.

Thats fine I just meant I didnt want the NCAA thread to turn into 10 pages about NBA draft rules

Because people dont seem to like this conversation I wont go any further because it seems to be a wall, so this is my last post. HS diploma and college diploma are MERIT based criteria. Age is not merit based. If the NBA criteria was you had to have a COLLEGE DEGREE, then it would be comparable. But that is not the requirement, nor is the requirement a HS diploma. Either of those requirements would potentially limit the NBA from getting the best basketball player. People keep mentioning govt age requirements. As if just because the govt does something it means its smart, right or good. And regardless no one has tried to explain how the NBA age limit is for PUBLIC policy. The age requirements on President, Congress, etc, is so that REGULAR people dont get hurt. But that is enough of this conversation. It is unlikely going to change, I just feel bad that the NCAA/NBA dont care about these kids. They make rules to screw them at every turn, and for what? Just so that they can make a little more money. Greed like that makes me angry.