Y2HH

QUOTE (Soxbadger @ Mar 26, 2012 -> 05:15 PM) No Im saying that when most shootings occur in Chicago, they dont know who the shooter is, and that is why there isnt a lot of national outrage about the fact that there havent been any charges pressed. What national attention should it get? That crimes are going unsolved? That isnt something that you can just wave a wand and fix. This case there is something that outrage can actually do (whether you agree or not) and that is pressure the police to charge Zimmerman. In most cases its not that they dont want to charge someone, its that they literally have no idea who is the criminal. So you can walk on the street all night long, but what will that change? The police are already trying to catch the guy, that is the difference. In this case, the police had the guy in custody and let him walk. Many people believe that the police didnt even properly investigate. That is where the outrage comes from. I completely understand this. But that doesn't mean there shouldn't be more outrage about the Chicago shooting crime rate, either...how about outrage BECAUSE it's so f***ing easy to get away with it in Chicago right now. Of course they don't know who the criminal is, since getting away with murder in Chicago stands at about a 75% chance right now.

QUOTE (Soxbadger @ Mar 26, 2012 -> 05:00 PM) y2hh, No it doesnt happen on a daily basis. If someone in Chicago was carrying a weapon on the street, shot someone and confessed, they would be charged with a crime. Gun laws dont stop crimes, laws dont stop crimes, that has been proven since the beginning of time and will continue until the end of time. But I doubt that many people would argue that there should be no laws, thus we create laws, not to stop crime, but instead to deter crime. If you live in Chicago, there is a great deterrent to walking around with a gun (you may go to jail simply for having one like Plaxico), if you live in Florida there is no deterrent for walking around with a gun. Whether or not you believe that people should be deterred from owning guns is up to you. I understand I was being hyperbolic when I said innocent kids get killed on a daily basis...but it happens...a LOT. It happens too much. There has been a terrible spree of deadly violence in Chicago this past month. What I'm not being hyperbolic about is that shootings and shooting related deaths or injuries DO happen on a daily basis in Chicago. So I hope you aren't claiming they don't. If all of this was treated with the same national attention, I bet it would happen far less than it does now. That's my point. Instead, it gets hardly any attention, and will just continue to happen. Edit: Speak of the Devil! Rhammel (yes, I spell it that way on purpose ) and McCarthy are holding a press conference about the rising gun violence in Chicago as we speak. http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/b...0,2025415.story Too bad their "anti violence" efforts are worse than their predecessors (Daley/Weis).

QUOTE (StrangeSox @ Mar 26, 2012 -> 04:52 PM) Been meaning to watch this, heard it's really good: http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/interrupters/ Never heard of this, what is it, if you could give a quick synopsis? I can't check right now.

QUOTE (Soxbadger @ Mar 26, 2012 -> 04:44 PM) In how many of those cases did the shooter confess? Because Id expect there to be outrage if a shooter confessed to shooting a kid and there were no charges brought... Not quite the same situation...but the fact that it happens on a near daily/weekly basis and hardly anyone seems to care is what should draw huge amounts of outrage...it shouldn't require a one-off account like this to draw attention to a problem. This drew attention to a badly written law in Florida...good. This gets national attention...but kids dying in Chicago gets a few snippets in local papers and then everyone forgets. Well, everyone except the families that lost an innocent child because of a piece of s*** wielding a gun in a City with some of the toughest gun laws in existence...yea, that's working well.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Mar 26, 2012 -> 04:39 PM) Of course, if there wasn't a national outrage over this, the state level and now federal investigations would almost certainly have not happened. It's too bad we don't treat all murders of possible innocents like this...because as I know it, bunches of innocent kids and people were gunned down in Chicago the last few weeks...and nobody gives a flying f***.

QUOTE (Soxbadger @ Mar 26, 2012 -> 04:37 PM) Juries are sheep, sorry if the truth isnt good, but the reality is that most people in the world are sheep. Oh, I agree. Said it in a previous thread, or possibly this one...I was a foreman on a Jury a few years ago...and it was the saddest experience of my life. Not a single person other than me gave a crap about anything presented in the case...it was annoying. The worst part is knowing that if something was to happen to someone I know, or anyone here, that you'd better hope you get a single juror like me...because it's all you need is one that does care, since I assure you most of them don't. They just want to get home ASAP, and what happens to you matters not.

QUOTE (Soxbadger @ Mar 26, 2012 -> 04:31 PM) y2hh, As long as you consistently believe I have no problem with that, Im the biggest advocate of that on this board. But I really dont recall you in the PSU threads defending Paterno... Wasn't in that tread, kept out of it because I have a young daughter and because of that my opinion is completely compromised. Therefore, I think that's best left to people who can make an unbiased judgement on that case...because my feelings on innocent until proven guilty still stand, even when it comes to Paterno's name.

QUOTE (Soxbadger @ Mar 26, 2012 -> 04:30 PM) But there is a huge difference between conviction and pressing charges. And I think its pretty disingenuous to call people sheep just because they may disagree with your point of view. Not why I called people sheep. I said that in direct response to you saying you'll take public perception over evidence. That's a sheeple attitude at it's WORST. The sheep comment has and had nothing to do with you or anyone else agreeing or disagreeing with my opinions.

QUOTE (StrangeSox @ Mar 26, 2012 -> 04:24 PM) The whole is greater than that sum of its parts with that one. you're welcome. Thank you.

Oh, and I realize it's not cool or hip of me -- and probably a bit controversial, -- but I don't feel like jumping the convict Zimmerman of murder bandwagon because it seems like the racially charged thing to do right now. No thanks. Let the investigations continue, and let this play out BEFORE convicting people because you'd really really love it if they were guilty. When they may not be. Once again guilty until proven innocent, I see.

QUOTE (StrangeSox @ Mar 26, 2012 -> 04:20 PM) Sorry for providing you with a classic line from a classic film! Apology not accepted. And that's not a "line", it's an entire scene. A line is... "I'll be back..." What you did was recite many many many lines.

QUOTE (Soxbadger @ Mar 26, 2012 -> 04:16 PM) The evidence may be in his favor, but the public perception is not. Ill take perception over evidence at any trial. Yes, but that's a piss poor attitude, and goes against everything our justice system stands for. Because public perception is that Zimmerman is guilty doesn't mean he actually is...the fact you are all convicting him sucks. Now, I don't know what happened, but I'm not ready to convict someone of murder because it seems popular to f***ing do so. Sheep. Edit: The evidence that currently exists, IMO, isn't evidence enough to convict someone of murder in a state where that law exists. Also, I think it's pretty agreed upon that the law is bad...but so are laws saying you should retreat. Neither should exist because both are bad. BUT, just because we don't like a law doesn't mean you can just choose to ignore it because current public perception is right now that an innocent kid got killed...when none of you, including Obama, knows much about what actually went down.

QUOTE (StrangeSox @ Mar 26, 2012 -> 08:40 AM) Hello? Uh, hello? Hello, Dmitri? Listen, I can't hear too well, do you suppose you could turn the music down just a little? [pause] Oh, that's much better. Yes. Fine, I can hear you now, Dmitri. Clear and plain and coming through fine. I'm coming through fine too, eh? Good, then. Well then, as you say we're both coming through fine. Good. Well, it's good that you're fine, and — and I'm fine. I agree with you. It's great to be fine. [Laughs] Now then, Dmitri, you know how we've always talked about the possibility of something going wrong with the bomb. [pause] The BOMB, Dmitri! The hydrogen bomb! Well now, what happened is, uh, one of our base commanders, he had a sort of, well, he went a little funny in the head. You know. Just a little...funny. And uh, he went and did a silly thing. Well, I'll tell you what he did, he ordered his planes...to attack your country. Well, let me finish, Dmitri. Let me finish, Dmitri. Well, listen, how do you think I feel about it? Can you imagine how I feel about it, Dmitri? Why do you think I'm calling you? Just to say hello? [sounding hurt] Of course I like to speak to you! Of course I like to say hello! Not now, but any time, Dmitri. I'm just calling up to tell you something terrible has happened. It's a friendly call. Of course it's a friendly call. Listen, if it wasn't friendly,...you probably wouldn't have even got it. They will not reach their targets for at least another hour. [pause] I'm sorry too, Dmitri. I'm very sorry. All right! You're sorrier than I am! But I am sorry as well. I am as sorry as you are Dmitri. Don't say that you are more sorry than I am, because I am capable of being just as sorry as you are. So we're both sorry, all right? All right. I'll never get that few minutes back, thanks.

QUOTE (Soxbadger @ Mar 26, 2012 -> 04:05 PM) I disagree with this entirely. The Florida statute simply says that the Police have to have probable cause that the person didnt act in self defense. If it is shown that Martin was shot while he was on the ground and unarmed, that would be pretty compelling evidence that it wasnt in self defense. If it is shown that Zimmerman created the situation or provoked the situation, its not self defense. You dont need someone to see it, you just need "probable cause" to bring the charges. There are no witnesses or evidence to show any of this. The only thing they'll get is ballistics, which can show how close he was when shot, and where the entry point was...that's it. IMO, and I'm not a lawyer, but IMO this is in Zimmerman's favor right now DUE to the lack of evidence, regardless of the national attention.

QUOTE (NorthSideSox72 @ Mar 26, 2012 -> 04:04 PM) I don't know where you are getting this. The Florida law at play here does not alter the fact that you can only act this way in self-defense. It absolutely applies. Just because there is no per se duty to retreat, does not alter the law as perversely as you seem to think. Zimmerman still cannot shoot Martin unless it is in defense of life/limb. Point is that in states where this law doesn't exist, a self defense plea isn't quite the same as it is in THAT state. Without witnesses, the only evidence they have is Zimmerman's word. That's not going to be easy to defeat since there are no eye witnesses. This post wouldn't exist if that law didn't exist...so why you're asking where I'm getting this...well, I have no idea where you're getting THAT!

QUOTE (Soxbadger @ Mar 26, 2012 -> 03:58 PM) And no I didnt question it, I simply said that there is evidence that can defeat self defense even if there are no witnesses. I dont have access to the crime report, so I cant really tell what the evidence is. But to argue that because there are no witnesses you cant defeat self defense, is just not true. It's not a simple self defense argument due to that law. In other states you'd be right, but not Florida.

QUOTE (Soxbadger @ Mar 26, 2012 -> 03:57 PM) y2hh, I was using the simplest evidence. The fact is, there is no evidence. The police didnt really do an investigation, they didnt impound the car (the first thing they do basically with any arrest) so its unlikely that they went out of their way to do much else. Who knows, more facts will come out. But to suggest he has to get away with it because he is the only witness, isnt true at all. And quite frankly my guess is that even if the evidence suggests he should be exonerated, he will be convicted. Once public perception sets in, its going to be hard to defend. If Zimmerman's lawyer is smart, after he gets arraigned, he offers some sort of plea deal with a ton of community service. As it stands, the law as written is on Zimmermans side due to lack of evidence, despite you not wanting to accept that. Everything you said would apply in states without that law...but unfortunatly for your opinion here, the law exists where this went down.

QUOTE (StrangeSox @ Mar 26, 2012 -> 03:55 PM) I don't think anyone is questioning that Martin was shot in the chest. The person I replied too did exactly that.

QUOTE (StrangeSox @ Mar 26, 2012 -> 03:53 PM) She's the last person to talk to Trayvon. If she is to be believed, it was literally less than a minute before his death and as he was being approached by Zimmerman. This person is backing that Martin was on top of Zimmerman, hitting him. That part really isn't important if you can't verify who started the confrontation. If Zimmerman assaulted Trayvon, has every right to defend himself, up to and including deadly force. Which comes down to live guy vs dead guy...take a guess who's going to win that argument, so long as he doesn't contradict himself (if he's actually guilty). I'm not taking sides one way or the other...none of us have any facts other than a bunch of hearsay.

QUOTE (Soxbadger @ Mar 26, 2012 -> 03:50 PM) Except for people are committed of murder without any witnesses based on evidence all the time. If the evidence shows that Zimmerman shot Martin in the back, its going to be hard to argue self defense. (Not saying thats what the evidence will show, from what I can tell there hasnt been a ballistics recreation yet.) You don't really need much ballistics education to recognize an entry/exit wound...they already know this, reported or not.

QUOTE (StrangeSox @ Mar 26, 2012 -> 03:47 PM) Report you just posted had a sentence saying "much" of his story has been corroborated by witnesses according to the police, who are taking a beating over this thing. But no one has come forward who witnessed the beginning of the confrontation which is the most important aspect. The closest we have are the statements by the girl Trayvon was on the phone with moments before which contradict Zimmerman's story. Her statements do not contradict those of the other witnesses who heard someone shouting for help or who saw Trayvon on top of Zimmerman. A phone witness isnt going to hold much water in a case like this. And I don't know where these witnesses came from, but the only person with any sort of visual on it seems to be backing Zimmerman, so his story is going to hold a lot more weight than people who heard some stuff.

QUOTE (Jenksismyb**** @ Mar 26, 2012 -> 03:46 PM) Well, i'd argue the injury itself isn't enough. He'd still have to show what caused it. The injury isn't enough if there were eye witness accounts or video...but there isn't so it's a living guys word versus a dead guy. You can't convict with that complete lack of evidence.

QUOTE (StrangeSox @ Mar 26, 2012 -> 03:41 PM) Several of the witnesses have explicitly stated that they don't agree with Zimmerman's story. Where?! Report I just posted says the opposite.

QUOTE (Steve9347 @ Mar 26, 2012 -> 03:39 PM) This thread is as all over the place as all of these "reports" and "eye-witness accounts". We'll never know for sure what happened and what events led up to what happened. The arguments in this thread are ridiculous because no one here has any idea what they are arguing. Right, and unfortunately the only things we know are what's being reported...and who knows if the reports are accurate. It's mostly speculation, but that doesn't make a discussion ridiculous.

QUOTE (StrangeSox @ Mar 26, 2012 -> 03:37 PM) That's Zimmerman's account of the story, not verified facts. It's contradicted by the statement from Trayvon's girlfriend, who was on the phone with him a minute before he was dead. While nobody saw it go down but those two, the witnesses that did talk seem to be backing Zimmerman. Just saying. I don't know if they're making it up or what, but that's what is being reported.