Randar68

QUOTE(Chisoxfn @ Nov 2, 2005 -> 04:11 PM) I know I've said it a few times around here, but I need to reiterate the fact that I think the best thing for Brian Anderson is another 6 months of AAA. If this were the Pirates or Drays, sure, I'd give him a starting job and let him grow into things, but at this point, I dont' think he'd be an asset and I think he still has a lot to learn in the minors. Lord knows I've never been as high on Anderson as some around these parts, but at the same time, I do think he has a lot of talent. However, he still has a rather rough swing that still needs improvement and more importantly more ab's in the minors won't hurt him at all. If he were to play in the majors, I'd want him up, ocassionally giving Aaron, Dye, and Pods a day off (that should be 2 starts a week) and than giving the DH a week off from time to time. I think you could get him 3 starts a week and while thats not great, it would be a nice thing for him to see for a full season and will help him prepare himself for 2007, which is when I think he will be a starter. And what would you do in 2007 when you're trying to break Chris Young and/or Owens and/or Sweeney into the majors? If you don't play Anderson now and allow him to learn on the job a little (has always shown a propensity to adjust quickly when moved up a level) then you're setting yourself up for HUGE flux the following year. Little by little. Rowand's offense was anything but critical to the team's success this year and Anderson plays equivalent defense at worst. Why not do it now? We're not making "The kids can play Part IV" here, right? You'd be expecting him to hit 8th or 9th... that's it!

QUOTE(Tony82087 @ Nov 2, 2005 -> 10:00 AM) While this thread has basically turned into an Aaron Rowand discussion, I just wanted to state how nice of a move Jerry Owens was. Picking up Alex Escobar off of waivers, then trading him to Washington for Owens. Nice work Kenny. Yep, even if Owens doesn't make it or get's traded, it was a great move in terms of getting a valuable tradeable commodity for an injury-prone roster-filler. Buy low, sell high, and trust your scouting department. This move is one of many recent moves that highlights the real quality organization KW has created.

QUOTE(CWSGuy406 @ Nov 1, 2005 -> 05:40 PM) For one of the best defensive CFers in all of baseball? Honestly, there's probably only a handfull of guys who are better defensively than Aaron. I'll say there's a good market for him. His career OPS, BTW, is closer to .800 than it is to .750. I certainly don't disagree with that. But, I also don't think you should just flip him off for a LOOGY -- a guy who'll barely pitch 40 innings a year. His value is certainly higher than that. I don't think you're understanding me. I'm not adverse at all to trading Rowand. And, I don't think Anderson is a downgrade from Rowand. Where I seem to disagree with you is: I don't think the Sox should feel 'forced' to trade Rowand. Meaning, if they aren't getting a good package coming back their way for him, they shouldn't deal him. Period. But that's just me. BTW -- this is the Jerry Owens thread, so here's his ZiPS projection -- 288/344/347. That's pretty good. Of course, nothing is set in stone, but if Rowand is traded, I hope Owens makes the team -- he can spell Anderson and Podsednik on occasion. That's fair, but someone previously mentioned Rowand being the centerpiece for a Dunn or Delgado or some trade of that sort. Rowand just isn't taht valuable. He is a defensive CF'er that will be making 5 million dollars in 2007. Defensive specialists just don't make that kind of coin and that affects his trade value. If the Sox trade him, they get 3 million in salary relief in 2006, 5 million in 2007, and getting a Loogy allows them to dump Marte and his 2+ million dollar contract. Money is the biggest factor in this, and that equates to around 5 million in savings for 2006 and more that that in 2007. That money alone is the difference between Uribe and what Furcal will be making in those seasons, in all likelihood. May not seem like a lot, and it may seem like they aren't getting market value for some of those players, but just like the Carlos Lee trade, it has a waterfall effect that is extremely valuable to the organization in filling holes in the 3/4 spots.

QUOTE(CWSGuy406 @ Nov 1, 2005 -> 09:02 PM) If you want me to elaborate on anything, let me know. It was also interesting to note that the Sox negotiated with Danks right to the end and BA made it sound like they may have been pretty close to signing him...

QUOTE(beck72 @ Nov 1, 2005 -> 04:55 PM) I understand the money aspect of putting Anderson in there. Though Rowand isn't making that much money and that wouldn't play that big a role in any deal. As far as Anderson being the better player, or if KW has the man love for him you say, time will tell. I haven't seen Anderson play. But I have a hard time believing the sox will trade away a sure thing like Rowand--above average defender, solid .290 hitter with speed [15 + sb's a yr] and power--and let a AAA prospect take over for him. Esp. as Anderson doesn't project to be that big of an improvement over Rowand. Most scouts have Anderson tagged as a .290 hitter with some above average OF defense. Anderson has much better power potential, and Rowand has been a career .750-.800 OPS player save a very outlier 2004 season of .905 OPS. I'd hardly call a And, as I've said before, KW loves the kid. His face has been everywhere the past 2 months... coincidence? Just gotta learn how to read the tea leaves.

QUOTE(CWSGuy406 @ Oct 31, 2005 -> 05:09 PM) If Williams trades Rowand, and all he can get for him is a LOOGY, then I will never get in another arguement with you again. You're vastly underrating Rowand if you think that's all the Sox can get for him. -He isn't a defensive liability. He's one of the best centerfielders in all of baseball, actually, and that in itself is worth a whole lot. I'm very happy the Sox have one great defensive centerfielder, much less another one waiting in the wings. -3.25 million isn't a whole lot of money. For a league average hitting, great defensive centerfielder, that's a bargain. If you're telling me that if Kenny Williams would call up Brian Cashman and ask him what he thinks Aaron Rowand is worth, and you think that Cashman would respond with "Alan Embree" -- then I think you're crazy. Please tell me what centerpiece Rowand is. How ludicrous are you being? Rowand has a good series in NY and Cashman is going to lose his jock over it? This man is an established general manager. You don't make decisions based on 3-game series performance. What is the market for a .750 OPS defensive CF'er who hits in the 7/8/9 spot? $3.25 million isn't a lot of money when it's someone else's money. The difference between Rowand and Anderson is almost 3 million dollars. You're telling me you couldn't use that to upgrade other positions in need of upgrade? KW would be wise to get a lefty reliever for Rowand so he can trade Marte and in the process dump a combined 5 million dollars to use toward filling the #3 hole in the order or resigning Konerko. Far more important questions than debating "what's the difference between Brian Anderson and Aaron Rowand." Again, you overvalue Aaron Rowand SIGNIFICANTLY. Put down the Sox kool-aid and find your way back to reality.

QUOTE(BlackBetsy @ Oct 31, 2005 -> 06:30 PM) Well. the question is whether Rowand is a .900 OPS hitter like in 2005. It's not far to say that he'll only ever be a .900 OPS guy. The question the Sox face is much more dynamic than Rowand vs. Anderson. There's Chris Young coming up faster than most expected. Truth be told, I think he's the best of the bunch. He's a .290/.390/.520 guy, I think. And where does Sweeney play when his power catches up with his swing. Mind you, that does not even take into account the man that was the origina subject of this thread. These are all good problems to have. I doubt Rowand is as bad as he showed this year, but he also failed to make adjustments this year. However, looking at Rowand's career numbers, the .905 OPS appears to be a SIGNIFICANT outlier. You're right, these are good problems to have.

QUOTE(3E8 @ Oct 31, 2005 -> 05:21 PM) Podsednik had 2772 minor league at-bats, and you now consider him one of the best leadoff hitters in the majors. He repeated A four times, and AA three times. He also had a huge sophomore slump in his second full season of big league play, just like Rowand. And don't tell me how Rowand had three semi-seasons to get adjusted to the bigs before his first full year, because you yourself said making a rookie a part-time player is a terrible way to initialize them. So there is a counter-point to your argument. We're comparing 2 players who are not all that dissimilar (Rowand/Anderson). Looking at what each of them did, when they did it, in their developmental path is a valuable comparison. Scott Podsednik doesn't have a damned thing to do with any of this, does he? So... WTF is your point? There is an example of every kind of case if you want to look it up. You wanna compare Brian Anderson and Aaron Rowand, then Scott Podsednik has as much to do with that comparison as herpes on an elephant's dick.

QUOTE(CWSGuy406 @ Oct 31, 2005 -> 04:29 PM) :headshake :headshake Zoom never said any of this... I guess I should try and make some use of this post rather than just stirring the pot... I basically feel that the Sox shouldn't feel like they have to trade Rowand -- but, if a team wants to give us a big bat and they want Rowand as a centerpiece to the deal, then I'd do it. I've brought it up in the PaleHose forum, but, say a bat like Gary Sheffield's. Or, if the Reds are looking for a real centerfielder, one who can, you know, play a little defense -- then Adam Dunn. But, I'd hope that they're not just trading Rowand because Anderson is waiting in the wings. If the right deal comes along, pull the trigger knowing that you're saving yourself some money, and mainaining the defense -- the offense is in question, as Anderson could turn out to be a very excellent offensive player, or just an average one. You guys are VASTLY overrating Aaron Rowand. We're talking about a #7 or 8 hitter on most teams. He makes 3.25 million. The reason you trade him is to get a lefty specialist to replace Marte and trade his ass. Or something similar in regard to freeing up that money to go to other players you'd like to acquire, like Furcal, Giles, a DH/1B in trade, etc etc... If you can work him into one of those other deals, fine, do it. Centerpiece of a trade for Sheffield or Dunn? Pass the crack pipe. You have 3 OF prospects on the heels of Anderson. You play him now, figure out what you have, and go from there. Rowand was anything but a crucial offensive asset this year, nothing Anderson can't replace, especially if they actually address the #3 hitter problem in the offseason and resign Pauly.

QUOTE(BlackBetsy @ Oct 31, 2005 -> 03:17 PM) But if that's the case, then you are basing your statements about Anderson on subjective criteria. In other words, your judgment is that Anderson will produce about the same as Rowand next year. But, since your opinion is subjective, it is essentially impossible to argue that you are wrong. But it's also impossible for you to prove that you are right. I note that Rowand put up an .868 OPS in Charlotte in 2001, but then put up a .692 OPS in Chicago in 2002. So a .100 point drop in OPS is not out of the question. I'm not sure who the real Rowand is, the one with a .900 OPS in 2004, or the one with the piss-poor .736 OPS in 2005. If he's really in the middle - an .820 OPS, then he's a very, very valuable player as a CF. That's a very fair arguement. And yes, when discussing subbjective opinions on a player, that can be the case, I will admit. However, if people really want to use stats as an indicator, need I do a side-by-side comparison of Rowand and Anderson's careers up to the point Anderson is at today? Rowand repeated AA. Anderson spent half a season there. Rowand had 1715 minor league At-bats. Anderson has only had 936... http://www.thebaseballcube.com/players/R/aaron-rowand.shtml http://www.thebaseballcube.com/players/A/b...nderson-3.shtml I've done this before, I'll just leave it at this. These links should be just about all I have to show in terms of statistics. If people are chickens*** to start Anderson because he might struggle, so be it. It is what it is. Rowand struggled all year, how is Anderson going to be any worse? Anderson has shown the propensity to make far quicker adjustements to the level of play than Aaron Rowand ever has, which is a primary reason why I think the taste he got this year, plus spring training, will have him ready to take over capably on opening day. There is more to baseball than statistics. The more you know about the game of baseball and about the mentalities and personalities of certain players the better position you'll be in to forcast their performance. Everyone within the organization, at various minor league facilities, fellow players, etc that I've ever spoken to about Brian Anderson has just RAVED about the kid, his physical ability and his skills as a hitter and his learning curve. If someone wants to be utterly dense about it and keep repeating some statistics and showing obvious fear of any prospect struggling, then I'm gonna call it for what it is. Few transitions are seamless, and that is all the more reason to make the change now when you're only counting on a kid to be a 7/8/9 hitter, as opposed to a year or 2 down the line when you're expecting him to step in and perform a more crucial role while breaking in additional players.

QUOTE(Rowand44 @ Oct 31, 2005 -> 03:40 PM) Anderson isn't a better defensive cf then Aaron. Brian's good but he's not better, anyways if a trade came along where we could get a big bat with Aaron being the centerpiece I'd definitely do it and let Brian play CF. Well, based on your Username, it'll be hard to argue your objectivity. Rowand will not be the centerpiece in any big deal, he's just not that valuable.

QUOTE(ZoomSlowik @ Oct 31, 2005 -> 12:08 PM) Minor league performance is simply not a good indicator of major league performance, especially when you only have on full year at any level to base projections on. It's better than guessing, but not by a whole lot. I'd be willing to bet that if Anderson gets the starting job and keeps it, he hits under .250, walks less than 50 times, and if he gets 500 at bats will strike out 120 times. I simply don't see how starting him in CF to start the year helps our organization. Rowand simply isn't making enough money to be considered an issue. How does a $3.25 million player really hurt a team with an $80 mil payroll? Virtually any player that's on the open market that has shown he can perform at the major league level will make that. You're doing it by blindy fudging stats that have no real bearing on what player A versus Player B will do when they reach the majors. I'm basing it on watching the kid play. You take your pick. I know you've already formed a rigid opinion about him and the expectations of him (especially since you claim he can't approach Rowand's performance, even though you say you expected a .100 point OPS drop, putting him almost EXACTLY even with Rowand)... Basically, you chose to use horses*** useless statistical blind guesses about a player you've almost never seen play the game of baseball. I'd rather use my 2 eyes. Thanks for playing this week's version of "I'm a moron because I like to blindly use statistics to gauge a prospect's ability"

QUOTE(3E8 @ Oct 31, 2005 -> 11:57 AM) Zoom never said this. sorry, he meant in OPS, my bad. Nonetheless. A .100 point dropoff in OPS would put him where Rowand was this year. So what's the difference other than about 3 million dollars? Developing him while winning or stiffling his development? It just makes zero sense when discussing the development of your own players. It's how you build and sustain a winner on a non-Yankee/Boston payroll. Hell, look at all the young guys Houston had in the field on a similar payroll.

QUOTE(ZoomSlowik @ Oct 31, 2005 -> 11:40 AM) I don't have a problem with replacing Rowand with someone that can hit. However, Anderson is not the answer, and Damon would be the only significant improvement I see in FA. I'd really like to see more from Anderson considering that there's only one decent season at AAA that tells us he's even close to ready. I believe I said the same thing when people were trying to put Jeremy Reed in our starting lineup before we traded him. Ask the Mariners how that worked out for them. I'm sure they're thrilled with the .254 batting average, .322 OBP, and .675 OPS. Also remember that Reed's a better contact hitter and took more walks than Anderson. As I've said before, I'd much rather have us deal him, put him in AAA, or make him the 4th outfielder than start him in CF. I just can't see that going well. So, you expect a .100 point dropoff in average between 2005 AAA and 2006 major leagues? Yeah, ok. Kid has adjusted and adjusted quickly at every level, was a top 10 prospect in the International League, yet he's not considered a good prospect, ok... Your reasoning is utter horses***, pure and simple. Top to bottom. Yeah, let's go after Johnny Damon when we have 4 top OF prosepcts within 1-2 years of the majors... This is like arguing with a brick wall

QUOTE(RockRaines @ Oct 31, 2005 -> 11:43 AM) I agree with you on letting Anderson get his shot. But A-row should have the chance to prove that last year was a down year, especially because his presence in the clubhouse. Look, one of the reasons I am so adamant about this is the Sox have 4 VERY GOOD OF prospects with the chance to make the MLB club between now and opening day 2007. The sooner you find out what you have with Anderson and break him in full-time, the better position you'll be in for 2007 and determining what you have and where these other kids fit in. Rowand having a very down year in many ways makes him less worthy of a shot to prove what he can do. You now have no idea what you'll get from him either, and you certainly can't consider him a player worth building around. Anderson is no slouch in the clubhouse. Everyone loves that guy too, so I'm not sure it matters all that much in the end.

QUOTE(ZoomSlowik @ Oct 31, 2005 -> 10:37 AM) We don't have a need to break him in yet, and he could probably use some more seasoning anyways, as shown by his 44/115 walk/strikeout ratio at AAA this year. I'd rather wait until he shows more in plate discipline. We have the luxury to be able to wait until our prospects are actually ready to contribute at the major league level right now, unlike some other teams, so I think we should take advantage of that. So, we shouldn't develop our home-grown players because: 1) People have failed in the past 2) replacing a .736 OPS with a 32/116 BB:K ratio player in the bottom of the order is a bad idea? 3) because a player with a year in AAA, half a year in AA, and spending what will be 2 or 3 spring trainings and most of August/September with the major league club "isn't ready to contribute to the big league club"... When the Hell is a player ready for the big league club if a guy with a full year in AAA where he showed improvement over the season and contributed to the club when called-upon down the stretch run heading to a World Series victory doesn't qualify as "ready to contribute to the big league club?" It's just absolute bull-honkey reasoning.

QUOTE(BHAMBARONS @ Oct 31, 2005 -> 10:08 AM) Tracey is pitching much better after 2 outings he had an ERA over 20.00 but has been lowering it ever since. The league ERA is something like 5.50... LOL!

QUOTE(ZoomSlowik @ Oct 30, 2005 -> 07:22 PM) I really don't see how you could look at Anderson's swing and say that he's going to be a reliable hitter next year. I could definitely see him hitting like .230 with an OBP well under .300. That's not going to help our lineup. If everything goes well, I could see him hitting about .260 with 15-18 homers, and an OBP of about .320, with the homer numbers only being accurate if he is a full time starter. That's not exactly stellar. Anderson is not another Pujols or Cabrera. He is not the kind of guy that is going to come in here and hit the crap out of the ball right away. He's not a supremely good contact hitter and doesn't have elite power. At his peak his probably a .280-25 homerun guy that plays very good defense. If he pans out, he's more of a Torii Hunter or pre-2005 Andruw Jones than a Ken Griffey Jr. There's not necessarily anything wrong with that, but his peak probably isn't this year. How many times have you seen Anderson play in his career? How many at-bats? The handful of major-league at-bats? Nobody has said anywhere that he's anything close to Pujols or Cabrera, and even saying that kind of stuff just furthers your lunatic apologist stance with regard to Rowand. His ceiling is far greater than Rowand's. He has never repeated a level. Hell, this summer was the first one he even spent entirely at a single level (and he didn't technically do that bouncing to Chicago)... He has hit everywhere he has been. He has taken walks, wherever he has been. He has risen quickly, without set-back, while playing CF and battling 2 injuries along the way. Anderson is a far superior baseball player to Aaron Rowand and the method you use to argue the point is beyond ridiculous. Please tell me what about Aaron Rowand makes him irreplaceable by a higher-ceiling prospect who plays Equivalent-at-worst defensive CF. Rowand is a freaking #7/8/9 hitter! This is how you develop the organization. Thank God Kenny has balls, because some of you are just afraid to make changes just for the sake of being afraid. This has nothing to do anymore about what would Zoom or Rock do if they were GM. 1) Kenny loves Brian Anderson 2) Kenny has Brian Anderson on big board 3) Rowand has disappointing year. 4) Kenny has several OF'ers who could be ready to break in for 2007, meaning you'd prefer to have Anderson established and knowing what you'll be able to get from him for 2007 instead of breaking in multiple OF'ers. 5) Rowand makes 3.25 million and Anderson makes 350k. It's simple deductive reasoning. Anderson could be included in a trade if KW has to do so to get a #3 or #4 hitter, but aside from that, Anderson will be your starting CF'er in 2006. It's time for some people to come to grips with reality.

QUOTE(RockRaines @ Oct 31, 2005 -> 09:49 AM) But we dont want to just replace A-row with an unproven player. The only real course is to use BA as a 4th OF'er this year, and let them play it out. Thats the only solution. This type of thinking fails to take anything other than hesitancy into account. "the only solution"??? So, we're afraid to take a chance now? We're afraid to trust our scouting and player development people? We're afraid to replace a disappointing offensive player with one who has a higher ceiling but may struggle initially? We're not replacing our heart of the order. We're replacing perhaps our weakest offensive player, here.

QUOTE(ZoomSlowik @ Oct 28, 2005 -> 09:48 PM) You really think that Anderson isn't going to have equally ugly at bats? Everyone on our team has had some brutal at bats here and there, that doesn't mean that a rookie with 1 year over A ball is going to outproduce them. Anderson's numbers are brutal thus far at the major league level, and would be worse if not for one great game against King Felix. Even at AAA he struck out too much and didn't walk enough. I think you're expecting too much from him. I expect Juan Uribe type numbers at best. Anderson's numbers improved as the season went on, his K:BB numbers improved steadily over the course of the season, his first in AAA. In addition, while he strikes out a bunch (as does Rowand), he also walks considerably more often than Rowand. You're expecting .260 with 15-20 HR's and 80 RBI? Anderson is simply a better baseball player than Aaron Rowand, and no excuse-making for Rowand or denigrating of Anderson to make your point is going to change that.

QUOTE(beck72 @ Oct 29, 2005 -> 06:20 AM) All this talk about Rowand being traded---what would his price be if he were a free agent this yr? How much would teams pay him? Sorry. Arow isn't going anywhere. Now anderson OTOH....... with Chris Young, Jerry Owens and Sweeney around in AAA for 2006, Anderson could go somewhere to play. And the sox could get some nice talent for him as well. Not as much as Rowand. But a good chunk Anderson is the better player, that's why you play him. Reason #1. Rowand makes 3.25 million. Anderson makes the minimum. Reason #2! Anderson has the higher ceiling. Reason #3. KW loves Anderson. Reason #4! Anderson is ready for the majors right now. Young, Sweeney, Owens, all a year or more away.

QUOTE(BlackBetsy @ Oct 27, 2005 -> 07:09 PM) Isn't it weird that Rowand and Anderson sit next to each other on the bench all the time? Isn't it "weird" that Anderson probably got more face-time in the series and celebration than Rowand? And to those who said Anderson couldn't touch Rowand defensively... lol... pass the pipe. I understand he is a fan-favorite and all, but that does not mean you should throw away all objectivity and common sense. A .750 OPS CF'er making 3.25 million next year and a cheap replacemant that could put those numbers up and play equal-at-worst defensively in CF, and has a MUCH higher ceiling... I'm still having nightmares of all the horrendous swings Rowand took in the playoffs, especially the series...

QUOTE(witesoxfan @ Oct 26, 2005 -> 01:45 PM) He needs to go back to hitting to all fields, like in 2004. Hit that outside pitch the other way for base hits, hit balls up the middle...hit balls everywhere. If he can go back to doing that, he'll, at the very least, increase his OPS into the .800-.850 range, which will atleast bring up his value as a trading chip. They've been throwing him inside all day for 2 months and showing that low breaking ball in the dirt over the outter half of the plate... He hasn't adjusted and looks worse than terrible for a while now... Make him your 4th OF'er next year. Late-inning defensive replacement for Pods... Again, you could trade him and find some value, maybe not, but he will make around 3.5 million next year and that is money better spent elsewhere on Pauly, a #3 hitter, etc...

QUOTE(MnSoxFan @ Oct 25, 2005 -> 07:31 PM) Young at .292 now. Went 2-2 today, with 2 walks, 1 HBP, his first homer and he also threw out a runner at 3B. Awesome to hear... he certainly started out slow. VERY good sign to see Valido playing pretty well and leading off... Pretty good jump from High-A to the AFL this year, a lot of AA and AAA experienced pitchers in the league.

QUOTE(RockRaines @ Oct 25, 2005 -> 03:43 PM) I still think that Either Sweeney or Anderson get moved, but thats my take. The odds are that at least one of these guys wont make it, so I think the problem will solve itself. But right now, Owens looks pretty cant miss. They may move Anderson in a couple years but he is possibly KW's favorite player. Anyone notice Aaron Rowand's offense against good pitching in the playoffs? I'm not upset, we're going to win this thing without leaving Houston, but Aaron Rowand is not going to be the starting CF'er in 2006.