NorthSideSox72

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ May 9, 2012 -> 02:42 PM) The Sox stopped this before it became something they needed to DL for. That is atypical. That is why no one can understand this. Usually the pitcher get injured before teams do something. The Sox stopped this before it got to that point. Thank you. A DL trip would have been worse on multiple levels.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ May 9, 2012 -> 02:14 PM) I don't know when you do it, but at some point you have to try giving Morel a chance to get comfortable hitting AAA pitching again. You think that would do it? I honestly don't know. It seems like his approach right now looks like his 2011 approach from April to July. He looks different up there than he did in August-September of last year. That seems mental to me, I don't think that its about not being able to hit major league pitching.

He's yours! And welcome to the board! Feel free to look around at some of the other AAP profiles, to see what people do with them. There are lots of formats you can use, or do whatever you want to. You can certainly look at any of the ones I started if you want to, or any of the others, there are lots of good ones here. The key is putting as much info as you can in here, and keeping it up to date. I'll update the main thread reflecting you are taking Terance. Thanks for joining!

QUOTE (Reddy @ May 9, 2012 -> 01:39 PM) will you stop. it's not a hilarious overreaction to say that taking our starter of the future and putting him permanently in the bullpen without a DL stint, MRI, or looking to trade him, was a horrible, horrible decision in every baseball sense. ... QUOTE (Reddy @ May 9, 2012 -> 01:50 PM) SO DL HIM WHILE YOU FIGURE EVERYTHING OUT! don't just publicize to the world "hey we think his arm's gonna fall off!" QUOTE (Reddy @ May 9, 2012 -> 01:51 PM) PLUS. Chris was just as confused and blindsided as we were. That doesn't seem right to me. QUOTE (Reddy @ May 9, 2012 -> 02:09 PM) um... we obviously DO need 15 days... Screaming in ALL CAPS, saying that a move to protect his arm is "a horrible, horrible decision in every baseball sense", suggesting doing a quick trade of a guy with an arm issue, and somehow miraculously knowing they need 15 days... you're kind of making my point for me.

QUOTE (flavum @ May 9, 2012 -> 02:02 PM) De Aza cf Beckham 2b Dunn dh Konerko 1b Pierzynski c Rios rf Ramirez ss Viciedo lf Morel 3b Off day tomorrow. Maybe Morel's last game if he goes 0-4? Lillibridge isn't doing much better with the bat, and Morel plays excellent defense. Escobar probably not ready, it isn't his normal position, and his .666 minor league OPS is way below what Brent put up. Morel will play for a while longer, unless the Sox make a trade, or he does so badly for most of the season that they go Dallas McPherson or something. Basically, there are no good options.

Amazing to think that, as bad as this team has looked in this series, a win here means they split 4 games on the road against the 1st place team. That after winning both of 2 there in April. Looking forward to seeing some KC and MIN teams this month for the Sox to get going against, hopefully.

Ranger just said that Cooper told him, on-air, that it was permanent for the rest of the season... a few days ago. That's the smoking gun I was looking for. So while the reactions on here and in some parts of the media are still hilariously overreactive, it appears it is true that the Sox gave one signal earlier, and are giving another now. I was wrong on that one.

QUOTE (TaylorStSox @ May 9, 2012 -> 11:13 AM) A 23 year old, under team control, should never be in charge of his own career. He's employed by the Sox. How they choose to use him is their prerogative. This.

QUOTE (Reddy @ May 9, 2012 -> 10:55 AM) and it means someone who makes the decisions gave him that impression... so he was operating with the same info as we and the beat reporters were. i'd say the reactions have been appropriate. They told him something in private, he was clearly upset - and maybe they said the rest of the year. Can't say, neither can you. I think the reactions have been spastic and unfounded in any sort of facts. No one is jerking Sale around (at this point), and no one is double-talking, in terms of anything the Sox brass are saying. I DO Think they jerked Sale around by having him be a reliever in 2011.

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ May 9, 2012 -> 10:51 AM) Derek Lowe went from a closer to throwing 200 innings a year. CJ Wilson only threw 70 innings in one of 4 years then had back to back 200+ inning seasons. To say they hurt Sale by limiting his innings last season isn't necessarily true. No one has said its impossible to do that - obviously it happens. Dempster did it too, if I recall correctly. Its just hard to do and expect success with it, especially for a young player who, in my view, looks like a stick figure and lacks a lot of muscle. What it did was, increase the risk (a lot) of this happening, Heck, its not like I was the only one saying this would likely happen during the year, lots of others did as well. It just happened earlier than many would have guessed.

QUOTE (Reddy @ May 9, 2012 -> 10:45 AM) "Some can and some can't," Sale said. "I wouldn't say I can't, but this year just isn't in the cards." I was thinking someone who makes decisions, but that's definitely from "The Sox", you are right. Sale seemed to think, at least in the heat of the moment, it wasn't happening this year.

QUOTE (Reddy @ May 9, 2012 -> 10:40 AM) also, re: starters coming up as relievers, see Buerhle, Mark That's where I think they could have done this better. Sale as a reliever in his draft year, that was fine, he'd already put in over 100 innings that year. But then 2011 should have been his buildup from that point - from 140 IP in 2010, to starting innings in 2011, which isn't a huge leap. Instead, they had him go down to 70 innings in 2011, and then try to push him up to full time. That was a mistake, IMO. MB only relieved for a half year, after starting in the minors, and threw 170 innings that year, before going to full time starting.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ May 9, 2012 -> 10:39 AM) This was the only way Chris Sale was going to be a member of this organization. He wanted top 3 draft pick money. The only thing that changed his mind was the chance to prove himself at the major league level, and to start his free agent/arb clock ASAP. The Sox weren't going over slot for him, which means they weren't going to draft him without this compromise. That's a good point, but then to me, that is a flaw in their drafting strategy. Also, they could have had him be a reliever in his draft year (which they did), then give him 2011 to pitch in AA or AAA to get to starting innings.

QUOTE (Reddy @ May 9, 2012 -> 10:37 AM) you just keep ignoring the quotes. or do you not feel that "rest of season" = permanent. WHAT QUOTES? No one has posted a quote from the SOX (not a writer's tweeted interperetation) that says its permanent. If someone finds one, great. Show me. All I've said from the beginning is, I have yet to see that. The ONE QUOTE that talks about permanence or not, from the Sox, is the Cooper one saying "never say never" and "for now", which clearly say nothing of permanent.

QUOTE (JorgeFabregas @ May 9, 2012 -> 10:29 AM) There's probably a reason for every beat writer having a hard time keeping the story straight. Its definitely confusing if you look at it on the surface: Sale is a starter when drafted, he comes up as a reliever with the Sox, they say he's going to start in 2012 and does, then they say he's back to the bullpen. To me, the criticism here shouldn't be about putting him in the bullpen at this point, since it obviously is needed to save his arm. I also fail to see how its bad that the Sox are attempting to do something other than have him go from 70 straight to 200 innings - I think that only make sense, and so does this move. The criticism I have is that they made him a reliever at all, if they wanted him to start. That is what caused all this. That all said, I still think the media, and many here, ran with an interperetation they made, and that the confusion is purely in the swirling media/fanbase talk. Unless, that is, someone can show me where the Sox said definitively that the move to the bullpen was permanent.

QUOTE (JorgeFabregas @ May 9, 2012 -> 10:24 AM) He seems to have said that he might return to the rotation in the future (never say never), but that he would be the closer for the remainder of the year at minimum. I think the media had a hard time deciphering what was going on, and tried to interperet things into an absolute. Sports media doesn't do grey very well, they need black and white. But the Sox clearly were not thinking in absolutes on this.

QUOTE (JorgeFabregas @ May 9, 2012 -> 10:18 AM) Here was a tweet from Scott Merkin with both sentiments: https://twitter.com/#!/scottmerkin/stat...531550332207104 Sox brass have been all over the place with this stuff. Well, Merkin is certainly all over the place with that tweet: It's a never say never sort of attitude on Sale returning to the rotation, but he will be closer for the rest of 2012 at the least WTF does that even mean? He contradicted himself in the same sentence.

QUOTE (Steve9347 @ May 9, 2012 -> 10:01 AM) It was a quote that said you were wrong. You said it did not exist, it existed. You're so badass, though, keep it up. Everyone respects you. A quote that showed I was wrong? I've said that I saw no quote saying this was permanent. You showed me a quote from Cooper which said nothing whatsoever about it being permanent or not - how is that even relevant, let alone saying either you or I were wrong? The one quote from Cooper we HAVE seen, specifically says, "never say never", and say he is there FOR RIGHT NOW. Did you actually read the quote you provided? If someone can show me an actual quote that says it is permanent, great. I have yet to see it. The only quote I've seen, says it isn't. Feel free to find one otherwise. Maybe Ventura did say it at some point - I just haven't seen it.

QUOTE (caulfield12 @ May 9, 2012 -> 09:07 AM) There was a point where Ventura said that Sale would be in the pen for the rest of this season, but then he backed off of those comments again in the last couple of days. "I enjoyed starting," Sale said. "I thought the transition was going well. I guess we'll see." Sale, who was named the White Sox’ closer Friday because he had been experiencing discomfort in his left elbow — raising concerns about the rigors of starting on his arm — still wants badly to start. And he might get another shot this season, even though manager Robin Ventura had said his move to the bullpen would be for the rest of the season. http://www.suntimes.com/sports/baseball/wh...e-to-start.html But posters on SoxTalk decided that must be true, so it was. Now they are saying it isn't permanent, and posters are all upset about the inconsistency. The inconsistency only existed in the heads of people here! We didn't decide. It's what the manager SAID!!! And now 2-3 days later, they're changing their tune again. That's why people are getting upset. Cooper is saying one thing, Ventura another, Sale consistently has been saying he wants to keep starting. Read the article more carefully. Cooper is quoted, specifically, as saying something other than it was permanent: Never say never,’’ Cooper told the Sun-Times when asked if Sale’s move to the pen is permanent this season. “For this moment, right now, he’s in the bullpen.’’ The line about Ventura used no direct quote. Seems to be it was an interperetation. QUOTE (Steve9347 @ May 9, 2012 -> 09:45 AM) You mean other than Don Cooper, right? "We’re doing it because we feel it’s best for him, his career and his health. It’s the best way to keep him healthy and strong. It gives us the best opportunity to do that. It’s easier to maintain that and keeping tabs on this in the bullpen than it is as a starter. We already know he’s a good left-handed reliever. That’s been proven over the past 1½ years. Now we’ll be trying to make him one of the best left handed relievers in baseball, not just in the American League." That's a long-term plan FROM THE PITCHING COACH. But please, continue acting all high and mighty like you know everything. QUOTE (Jordan4life @ May 9, 2012 -> 09:49 AM) Damn, steve actually just owned somebody. See above. Steve owned himself, illustrating that Cooper is training Sale as a reliever, and the same Cooper went out of his way to say it wasn't permanent. But keep on defending the overreaction, guys. It's amusing.

This is hilarious. When they announced he was going to the pen, no one on the Sox (that I saw) was quoted as saying it was permanent. But posters on SoxTalk decided that must be true, so it was. Now they are saying it isn't permanent, and posters are all upset about the inconsistency. The inconsistency only existed in the heads of people here! This makes perfect sense, just as it did before. His arm hurts, the added innings are causing stress, but he's not injured. So, let him ease back a bit, but still pitch and build up a few innings... then as the season goes on, if he feels good, stretch him out again. That way, you go from 70 IP last year, to say, 120 IP this year, and then he's more ready to jump to full-time starter innings in 2013. Some guys can go from 70-80 IP right to 200, but not all, or even many. I mean, look at Chris - he's skinny as hell, and probably needs to build up some upper body strength. This was likely to occur at some point during the season (though I admit I would have predicted it to be later), but it doesn't mean he can't ever be a starter again.

QUOTE (caulfield12 @ May 8, 2012 -> 11:13 PM) http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseb...,0,123270.story Just what the Sox need, another mini-controversy in the middle of our 4-11 stretch. I can't believe that KW signed him with the idea he was going to give him 300+ AB's. At some point, they might need to waive him and use a Danks or Golson as the 4th outfielder (depending on what happens with Lillibridge/Morel at 3B). Or bring up Dan Johnson, who has been hitting really well in Charlotte. Or just get rid of Escobar. By the way, Brad Penny's now available. Managed to make it through one start in Japan. http://mlb.sbnation.com/2012/5/8/3007371/b...apan-mlb-offers Somehow, I have a feeling this will be KW's next brilliant move. Apparently Penny already has some offers from major league teams to come back. According to team officials, Penny was "unable to adapt well to baseball in Japan, [and he] strongly desired to leave." Now, though, there might be a chance for the 33-year-old Penny to return to MLB, says Buster Olney: Brad Penny has offers to be a starter and offers to be a reliever from MLB teams. Will choose soon. There are many teams that have issues in both their rotation and bullpen. If Penny is healthy again, he might be able to help out, and probably wouldn't cost too much. This is the quote: Unless you have a link to some other article, it seems like you are just creating controversy here where none exists. Your thread title is misleading.

QUOTE (TitoMB @ May 8, 2012 -> 03:35 PM) Sarcasm, I hope. There is nothing to back this implication. It is a piece of the puzzle. How much that one change made a difference, no one can really know.

QUOTE (fathom @ May 8, 2012 -> 02:40 PM) And is there any evidence that the Sox have a player on the roster that generates more attendance than others? A great example is Buehrle, who was easily the most beloved Sox pitcher ever. I never once heard a statistic that attendance was up when he pitched and that TV ratings increased. There have been examples of this, as I remember hearing how KC's attendance/ratings were up on days Greinke pitched during his great season. The ironic thing is that if Buehrle was to come back and face the Sox in a game, you'd probably see an attendance bump for that night. NSS, don't get me wrong. I hate when our fans complain about too many Red Sox/Yankees fans at our games. Of course attendance matters, and it would be great if we were like the Cubs and able to still average 30k despite being a mediocre team. Unfortunately that's not realistic, but as balta likes to point out, the reason for the drastic cut in payroll this year is cause the front office knew how terrible the attendance was going to be. Now, if JR is willing to have a $150 million payroll for 2013, then all of this rebuilding is out the window and bring on Hamels/Cano. I don't have a statistical study of correlation or anything - I just see how many people come to games, and it is clearly tied to success levels. For that matter, I've been a season ticket holder for years, and we sell our unused tickets (on Stub Hub, on here, etc.); I see clear trends, when the team is somewhere "in it", the tickets sell far, far better than when they drop out of contention. Now, is there a difference between two teams that win 75 or 70 games, and are both out of it in May? No. But if one team is near the top for the first half of the year, and the other is not, the former will definitely sell more tickets than the latter. I've seen it.

QUOTE (fathom @ May 8, 2012 -> 02:19 PM) I've gone to a Sox game one time in my life to see a particular player, and that was Pedro Martinez during his remarkable run on the Red Sox. I already had tickets for the game in which Beckham made his debut, so I probably would have gone to that game especially to see the debut also. Unless Konerko gets to 499 home runs, I wouldn't entertain going to the game just to see him play. I just posted this in the other thread, but it is obviously needed here as well... You are not the fan base - you are one of many types of fans.

QUOTE (Y2JImmy0 @ May 8, 2012 -> 02:10 PM) And that's one man's opinion. Count me as not interested in being good enough to compete but not good enough to win the whole damn thing. If it were a team full of young players with promise then yes, obviously winning 88 games is better than being the worst team in baseball. But when you are the White Sox, with the worst minor league system in the game trying to win as many games as possible to hopefully finish 3rd does absolutely nothing to help the future of the franchise. Then you simply are not familiar with the way the team is run. Revenue dictates player payroll. Revenue is tied to the success of the team (among other things). Not everyone feels as you do - many more fans will show up for a team that is decent, than one that is terrible. They will also sometimes show up for certain star players. Whether or not YOU will is irrelevant, for the purpose of how the team is run. The White Sox, in their current situation, cannot do a gut rebuild and expect to succeed, short or long term. They need butts in the seats. Therefore, an 88 win team is most definitely better for the team's future than a 60 win team, all else equal. This is why KW is doing a short-term rebuild on the fly for 2013 or 2014. That's the only realistic alternative he has in front of him.