Lillian

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Dec 11, 2010 -> 05:13 PM) The problem is...if he's already got a fairly quick bat, a lighter bat will translate to less power. Juan Pierre with less power. Think about that for a momen. Thanks for the comments on choking up. Those were some interesting points that some of you made. This board is indeed a pleasure.

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Dec 11, 2010 -> 04:45 PM) I'm guessing you will be the happiest Sox fan on the planet once Juan Pierre's White Sox tour of duty is over. You may be right about that. In the meantime, will someone explain to me why a guy like Pierre doesn't choke up on the bat? As long as he can't drive a ball into the gap, why not choke up and just try to make contact. He's not a bad contact hitter, but he would probably be better if his hands weren't down on the knob. I've never understood why guys with no power don't choke up. I'm old enough to remember Nellie Fox, and his hitting style would suit a lot of today's players. That's just one of the things about Pierre's game that I find frustrating. If he choked up, maybe he'd be as hard to stike out as Fox was. Nellie used to strike out only about 11 to 13 times a year!!

QUOTE (joeynach @ Dec 11, 2010 -> 03:35 PM) Are u saying Pierre+CQ for Victorino+Reliever? I doubt that the Phillies would want Pierre. There wouldn't be any room for him in their outfield, with Brown, Quentin and Ibanez. I was assuming that Pierre would then be traded somewhere else for a reliever.

QUOTE (bigruss22 @ Dec 11, 2010 -> 02:57 PM) Victorino has much more value than Pods ever had. You are absolutely right about that. There is no question that Pods was never the player that Victorino is, however it is interesting that Pods had a similar year to Victorino's last season, in the year before he was traded for Lee. He was about the same age then as Victorino is now, as well. Like Victorino, Pods had also just completed a year when his batting average and OBP had dropped significantly, while his home run total jumped. Victorino and Pods are both better suited as lead off hitters, not run producers, and perhaps K.W. thinks that he would be a valuable defensive upgrade and a better lead off hitter than his current left fielder.

QUOTE (fathom @ Dec 11, 2010 -> 01:51 PM) Goodness people, do you really think the Phillies are going to give up the top prospect in baseball for Carlos Quentin? Well, the Phillies have said that they are looking for a right handed power hitting outfielder. Since they now have Victorino, Ibanez and Dominic Brown, as their current outfielders, whom are they planning to replace with that right handed bat. Which one do you think that they would give up for Quentin, in whom they have stated that have an interest? They can't really believe that the Sox would consider Ibanez, so it would have to be Victorino or Brown. For those of you who scoffed at the idea that the Phillies would give up their top minor league prospect, what about the possibility that they would trade Victorino instead? I would prefer Brown, as his upside is far greater, and he would save some money, which Victorino would not. Although Victorino together with a reliever would be closer to the kind of return that K.W. got for Lee. Victorino is another stolen base guy, although he has more pop than Posednik. Could K.W. be thinking to put Victorino in CF, move Rios back to RF? I wouldn't mind that move, if he replaced Pierre with Victorino at lead off, and then put Viciedo in LF, or aquired a proven run producer to play Left.

The kinds of names that have come up in previous, recent speculation regarding Quentin are guys like Dunn, and Rasmus. Judging from that, I hope that Carlos would only be moved for someone of that calibre. I mentioned Dominic Brown because I would regard him as both an appealing return for Quentin, and because the Phillies might be a good fit for that kind of trade with the Sox. Of course, Brown is unproven. However, he is young, cheap, a potential star 3 or 4 tool outfielder, and is left handed. Here are a couple of old scouting reports: http://baseballbeginnings.com/2009/12/05/d...ic-brown-report http://razzball.com/scouting-the-unknown-8-5-09/ Some of you think that he's not a good enough return for Quentin, while others think that the Phillies would never make such a trade, though it would fill one of their stated highest priority needs. So, I have no idea. All I know is that trading Carlos for bullpen arms would not make me at all happy.

The Phillies are looking for a right handed hitting outfielder to replace Werth, and have already been rumored to have been interested in Quentin. I'd take Dominic Brown for Carlos. Put him in RF, and get relievers with the money saved. They might be willing to let Brown go for a proven middle of the order, right handed slugger. With Utley, Howard and Ibanez, plus the switch hitting Rollins and Victorino, they don't need another LH bat.

QUOTE (KyYlE23 @ Dec 10, 2010 -> 09:39 PM) I think he is a risk either way. He could either blossom into the talent we saw in 08, or become an injury riddled bust that never reaches that potential again. While he could haunt management if he goes, he could also be that guy you should of sold high on because he never repeats that success when you kept him. Tough decision for KW, one I would not want to have to make. Although in my opinion, I think we should sell high on him now. I dont know if relief pitching is what I would target, but it is what it is Do you really think that the Sox would be "selling high" on Quentin? His value is probably lower than it has been at any time since before the 2008 season. Judging from the way people on the various forums are talking, they certainly have never been less optimistic about Quentin. Remember, he used to be referred to as "The Carlos Quentin".

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Dec 10, 2010 -> 05:39 PM) Everyone must realize KW loves Viciedo. If Quentin gets traded, RF just opened up for Viciedo. I'd be very careful trading Carlos Quentin. Guys who have a horrible year by putting up an .821 OPS don't come around very often. We all are very aware of what he's capable of. I agree that trading Carlos is a huge risk, unless they get back something really terrific. Quentin is the kind of player who could haunt management for several years to come, for giving up on him.

QUOTE (balfanman @ Dec 9, 2010 -> 03:20 PM) People need to realize that everyone on here has an opinion and there is absolutely nothing wrong with that. Most opinions you can't prove wrong one way or the other until way after the fact, but there are those who vehemently insist on proving you wrong, no matter what. Those are the ones who bother me. Hopefully, I can disagree with someone and still respect their opinion. And, of course, this is JMHO on this ! Yes, I agree. Thank you

QUOTE (Kenny Hates Prospects @ Dec 9, 2010 -> 02:17 PM) What are you still doing over there anyway? You have no reason to post anywhere other than SoxTalk. Well, the people on this forum do seem to be more rational, and considerably more polite. Regarding Pierre, I don't think that he is awful, but I did argue that his OBP is not high enough for a guy who doesn't get any Xtra basehits, or even drive the ball. The way I look at it, if he led off every time he came up, his production might be acceptable. The problem is that he's only guaranteed to lead off once per game. When he comes to the plate with guys on base, his ability to steal bases is irrelevant. How many times has he come to the plate with a guy on second and no out, or on third with less than two outs? He can't be counted on to even hit a sacrifice fly, as that's further than he's capable of hitting a baseball. As he ages, and loses a step, he is losing his ability to get all of those infield hits, that he got when he was younger. When you combine that with his weak arm, I'm just not impressed with his skill set. But wow, you'd think that I was a complete idiot for even suggesting that the Sox might try to get a better hitter, and defender, to play either RF or CF, so that Carlos could move to left, where he is less of a defensive liability. When I said that Rios could then be a candidate to lead off, by default, as no one else can really steal bases, the posters were just merciless. "Why do I want to make Rios a lead off hitter". I simply figured that he was the best option to do so, if the rest of the line up consisted of something like: Vizquel Konerko Dunn Quentin Drew Ramirez A. J. Beckham Not that we could get, or even afford J. D. Drew, but I thought that would be a great lineup, and Rios would fit nicely at the top. Geez, you can't believe the "hate". A few even suggested that if we were able to acquire someone like Drew, that the Sox should dump Quentin for a couple relievers, and keep Pierre. That is hard for me to comprehend. Pierre is not likely to ever come back to haunt you, but moving Carlos certainly could. What is disturbing is that these guys don't simply disagree, they want to make you out to be an idiot if you disagree with them. Maybe you're right about not posting there anymore. Thanks for being fair minded, and reasonable. It's refreshing.

QUOTE (Jordan4life @ Dec 9, 2010 -> 11:55 AM) I'm trying to forget about Juan Pierre right now because he makes me want to hurl. But I agree. Mitchell is one of, like, 2 prospects we have right now that really, really intrigues me. I just hope it doesn't take him forever to bounce back from missing so much time. So are you saying that you wouldn't deal Dayan, Flowers and whatever scrub for Broxton and maybe another piece? That's where this all started for me. I hate hypothetical trades with no substance like Megatron hates Optimus prime. But I'm buzzed and bored and had to speak my mind. Thank you for expressing your sentiments regarding Pierre. I've posted several extensive comments on White Sox Interactive about how I would like to see the Sox upgrade the outfield, starting with Pierre. The insults and attacks against my suggestions have been "over the top". Geez, I can't help it if a guy who can't drive the ball out of the infield doesn't excite me. Apparently, a lot of the guys on that board just think that it's all about stolen bases. Pierre can do that, but that's about all he can do. At any rate, it's nice to see that I'm not the only one who is not enamored with J. P.'s game.

QUOTE (beautox @ Dec 9, 2010 -> 04:04 AM) OS: What is boston going to do now that Crawford is locked up, i wonder if we see Cameron and Scutaro moved. From a baseball perspective im looking forward to seeing what lowrie and the red sox in general do next year edit: code tags I posted this on Whitesox Interactive: http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbullet...694#post2660694 What do you think?

Thank you "Whitesoxfan" and "Beautox". I stand corrected regarding E. Jackson's ML service time.

QUOTE (beautox @ Dec 9, 2010 -> 02:32 AM) For a number of reasons: Going into 2011 we don't know what Peavy's health is going to be, he might not even break ST with the sox and he could regress, if not, its never a bad thing to have too much starting pitching, if Peavy is healthy then it allows you to work out an extension with danks/garza or at the deadline or possibly move one of our pitchers not named Buehrle or Peavy. We have situation looming ahead of us with our rotation. Buehrle & Jackson are both FA after this upcoming season, Peavy and Danks in 2012, unless Peavy pitches like his former cy young self the next two years, I don't foresee us picking up his 22m option for 2013, Floyd's a FA after 2013. Garza would be a free agent the same offseaon as Floyd. It would serve the sox well to know what they have going into the 2013 season with a good looking core of Floyd, Garza and Sale. Lastly Quentin is not fit to play RF and he is made of glass, i'm of the feeling he would've made a very good DH but now we have the best DH in the AL so its redundant to keep him on the roster and in addition to that unless Dayan is going to Learn RF with konerkos signing it doesn't make sense to keep him, unless we are going to string him along like the angels did morales. Like i previously stated the rays are pitching rich but need cost effective solutions at 1B and DH, unless their going to use Dan Johnson which if they are going to compete in the east this year they're going to need something with a bit more upside. The last thing for which the Sox need to trade is another starting pitcher. Jackson will not be a free agent at the end of this season. He only has 4.07 years of ML service time. He'll be a free agent after the 2012 season. Quentin is the best hitter we have to provide Dunn some protection, and should bat 5th. I agree that he is not a good enough defender to play RF, but then I've covered that subject pretty well in other posts.

QUOTE (LVSoxFan @ Dec 8, 2010 -> 04:44 PM) Aha I see. For some reason I thought Jackson was a one year rental. Moreover, he will not be a free agent until after the 2012 season. His MLB service time is still only 4.07 years. We can offer arbitration at the end of the year. He could be a big part of the rotation for the next two seasons.

QUOTE (witesoxfan @ Dec 8, 2010 -> 06:25 PM) My suggestion would be to leave it as is and not make it so complicated. You are going to be hard-pressed to find a better defensive arrangement than Pierre-Rios-Quentin. Pierre was fantastic defensively last year, Rios was good, but not great, and Quentin was awful. The only way logical way you can improve that is to get rid of Quentin, because even if you move him to LF, he's still in the outfield, and he's still bad (and I have a hunch, though it may be incorrect, that most flyballs go to left and left center, so you are going to want the superior defender out there anyways) Would you be satisfied with Quentin in Left, Rios in CF, and Andruw Jones in Right? That is not only a decent defensive outfield, but completes a very good team defense, with Carlos being the only weak link. You don't have to ask me who I'd have lead off in that scenario. I think you know the answer.

I'm still hoping that the Yankees spend big on Crawford. That should motivate them to dump Granderson and his contract. The Sox could then make an effort to acquire him, if they could dump Pierre and Teahen, and their salaries, which would pay for Granderson. There is your new leadoff hitter, and centerfielder. However, I'd settle for any good defensive outfielder, with a decent bat. I just don't like an outfield of Pierre, Rios and Quentin. Carlos is fine in Left, with Rios and a good glove roaming the rest of the outfield.

QUOTE (NorthSideSox72 @ Dec 8, 2010 -> 06:02 PM) Ugh, again with the leadoff hitter thing. You do not build a team by selecting players for lineup slots. You build the team with the best offensively players you can (fitting your general plan, ballpark, etc.), and THEN make the lineup you think will work best. No, Pierre is not Ricky Henderson. No, he won't get on base at a .400 clip. But given the players the Sox have, no one else really makes any better sense right now. You do not go out and acquire a "leadoff hitter". I agree. The Sox don't need to acquire a lead off hitter. My argument starts with the need to improve the outfield defense, while retaining Quentin, who no longer has the option to be the DH. If Quentin is in the outfield, he should be in Left. Then you need a better outfielder to play RF, or move Rios to RF, and play a better fielder in CF. Pierre has no place in that scenario. However, if the outfield addition can provide some offensive production, then you have the luxury of Rios leading off. That is how I got there. What is your suggestion?

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Dec 8, 2010 -> 05:40 PM) Then the highest priority is not having runners on base. No, it is still the highest priority for the lead off hitter, but Pierre does not excel at that. I would not expect him to have an OBP higher than his average for the last several years, which is around .330, although he did exceed that last year. I've beaten this "dead horse" enough. Let's just chaulk it up to a difference in philosophy about baseball. At any rate, I'm pretty sure that we won't have a chance to see anyone other than Pierre leading off, unless he is hurt or traded.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Dec 8, 2010 -> 05:37 PM) I don't know if you noted this...but Alex Rios's career OBP is .331, and it was .334 last year. Juan Pierre's career OBP is .347, and it was .341 last year. Yes, you're correct, and if Pierre could always lead off an inning, I would agree that he might be a better choice than Rios. The problem is that many times he will not be leading off, and then I would prefer that Rios be at the plate. I'd like to have a guy leading off who could get on base at a .370+ rate, but if not, then at least give me someone with gap power and the ability to drive in runs. It's just a difference in philosophy. I remember the 59' Sox. That team couldn't score runs, but they could manufacture a run with Aparicio leading off with a walk or a single, stealing second, and scoring on a perfectly placed single by Fox. Or, Fox would execute a perfect hit and run in the hole vacated by the second baseman covering the bag, with Aparicio running. Then someone would hit a sacrifice fly to bring "Little Louie" home from third. Those days are over. This is the American League, with the D.H. I think "Ozzie Ball" is over rated. Give me either a high OBP or Slugging %. A guy with neither, who is only good at running, should be a pinch runner.

For those of you who are Pierre fans, I personally don't care about the stolen bases. We are going to have a lot of thunder in our lineup, and the highest priority for our lead off hitter is to get on base. I want those Konerko, Dunn and Quentin home runs to come with one or more guys on base. Moreover, the Sox will have very good balance up and down the lineup. Pierre could very well be hitting with Beckham, Ramirez, or A.J. on base, and when he does, I will likely have no more confidence in his ability to do anything productive than I did last year. This team has a chance to score a lot of runs, especially if they can find a productive hitter to play either CF or RF, moving Quentin to LF. At that point, Rios could lead off, as I have advocated for some time. The Sox don't need to steal bases to manufacture runs, although Rios can do some of that as well. I'd be very happy to see Pierre moved, or relegated to a bench player, even if he is costing the Sox $5 million.

QUOTE (JoeCoolMan24 @ Dec 8, 2010 -> 02:09 PM) Yeah, all things considered (contract, age, and cost to acquire), I would surely take Gardner over Granderson. Quentin, Granderson or Gardner, and Rios is much better. The Yankees would be anxious to unload Granderson's contract, but not Gardner. We could afford to have one questionable defensive outfielder, if it's LF. Wouldn't you rather have Quentin's bat, rather than Pierre's?

QUOTE (Kenny Hates Prospects @ Dec 8, 2010 -> 10:32 AM) If the Yankees sign Crawford then I want the Sox to go after Gardner. If the Red Sox sign Crawford then I want the Sox to go after Ellsbury. And in either situation I'd love to see Pierre relegated to 4th OF or (preferably) gone. Thank you, thank you, thank you. A man after my own heart. Then you put Rios in RF, and Quentin in LF. What would they want in return?

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Dec 8, 2010 -> 07:41 AM) The LA Times floated 8/$180 as a possible. They can't be serious. That is insane. He would be 38 at the end of that contract, and still earning $22.5 million per year!!! How many stolen bases would you guess he might have in his late 30's? His hitting is not nearly good enough to justify that kind of money, especially when he can no longer run like he's been able to run, up to this point.