Gregory Pratt

Well, now we're beginning to differ, but I find what you're saying quite interesting.

QUOTE(southsider2k5 @ Jun 23, 2006 -> 01:46 PM) I wasn't talking to you FWIW... Yeah, but you were discussing a point I made, and I very well had to defend my point.

No, SoxBadger, don't apologize, that was very good. I enjoyed reading that. That is the thing that bothers me, that is so disillusioning to me: I've been of the opinion that it's worth it. But everytime that the Administration is shown to have been dishonest over something or another, it cripples my faith in their ability to handle it. Stories like the one from today and the one that sparked this thread do not help inspire confidence in our government to help theirs. Not to get into petty partisanship, but isn't that because the Administration by its own admission didn't even think there'd be an insurgency and fully failed to expect anything?

QUOTE(southsider2k5 @ Jun 23, 2006 -> 01:19 PM) Not to mention incredibly lacking in substance, but that's beside the point. It was a satire. A Satire doesn't have to be a manifesto. QUOTE(minors @ Jun 23, 2006 -> 01:18 PM) Yes I am standing up for our president I just fail to see how bad of job he has done. I will even add Joe L I never though I could stand for him but what he has done is awsome, standing up for what he knows is right. The way I see it is we have done so much good in Iraq lets finish the job. It would be terrible if we cut and ran like some libs want to do then have Terrorists retake the area and attack us once again. I have to appulde the liberal plan here because it is one that if it fails will ruin the party for ever. There is no way they could recover if there cut and run strategy ended up with the terrorists committing more attacks and Tens of thousands of dead on the homeland. To our great president To Joe L Speaking of great jobs and of terrorists "retaking the area": http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060623/ap_on_re_mi_ea/iraq

QUOTE(minors @ Jun 23, 2006 -> 12:50 PM) Job Approval Oh, you edited your post... Well, I read what you wrote, and I'd like to say that I admire that you are willing to stick up for the President and stand up for your convictions. I think that that is very admirable, and it touched my heart to see that you wrote, "I'm trying to stick up for our great President." And I'm not being sarcastic there.

That is awful.

QUOTE(NorthSideSox72 @ Jun 23, 2006 -> 12:41 PM) Have you ever posted anything in here that wasn't dripping with sacrasm and/or arrogance? I'm sure I have. What makes you think that I'm being sarcastic when I say "Republican candidates will be winning big November because of the last four days!"? The sheer propostrousness of the claim?

That's so sad.

QUOTE(minors @ Jun 23, 2006 -> 12:34 PM) Bush approval gained the last 4 days and up 44% and the war have also climbes. This is good news and good news for conservative candidates who should win big in November. President Bush Spot on, Minors! Republican candidates will be winning big November because of the last four days!

QUOTE(WCSox @ Jun 23, 2006 -> 12:18 PM) Political spin aside, I agree. No, no, I agree. It was your point, and idea, after all.

QUOTE(WCSox @ Jun 23, 2006 -> 12:11 PM) It's no less probable than your assertion that the information came from an overseas informant. As I said before, it's likely that one of the neighbors simply called the FBI when the suspicious activities began. The Patriot act and/or wiretapping very well may have not played a role in this case. Then again, not all terrorists are this sloppy and conspicuous. People like McVeigh/Nichols and the Middle Eastern men who planned/carried out their respective terrorist attacks (right here in America) certainly weren't. That wasn't exactly my point. We have had informants. If you read the news about al-Qaeda dropping a chemical weapons attack forty five days before -- it was in The One Percent Doctrine thread -- you'd see that we DO have a spy in al-Qaeda. But I also said that someone giving us a tip, or someone we forced one out of. Perhaps someone at Gitmo, or in one of our prisons. There are all sorts of situations. In the past, additionally, we have gotten great assistance from Canadian authorities in disrupting plots. See the 2000 plots. So who knows. All I'm saying is that it's a stretch, and a political one, to say, "WIRETAPS AND PATRIOT ACT DID IT!" when, historically, there've been so many other things that have stopped attacks. I do think it's possible that the FBI received a tip from a neighbor. I think it's far likelier than, "Bush's programs paid off all hail his wisdom!"

QUOTE(YASNY @ Jun 23, 2006 -> 12:01 PM) Nope. I could give a rat's ass if you jump on me. I'll deal with that if and when it happens. You were, however, taking a specific incident to attempt to refute a general observation. You have a rat's ass to give? YASNY, I think it be best if you return it -- some poor rodent is around without an ass because of you! As far as taking "specific incident"s to refute "general observations," I've nothing to add except that I was correcting an incorrect statement and nothing more. I backed what you were saying, in different words, just noted that the way you had made your point was wrong upon review.

QUOTE(WCSox @ Jun 23, 2006 -> 11:55 AM) The evidence strongly suggests that we stopped a terrorist attack in its planning stages. That's exactly what we want. By all means, it's a positive, but I believe my objection came in saying, "OUR WIRETAPPING AND PATRIOT ACT DID THIS!" when there are so many other likelier possibilities. I didn't say that our people weren't right on top of things, and I'm glad we stopped the plan in its baby stages, but I'd point out that, with the nature of al-Qaeda, stopping something in its baby stages doesn't mean you've accomplished much as they are the types who change plans often, especially in the baby stages. But, as I just said, I believe my objections in this post came to people calling out the PATACT and Wiretaps as the reason for such an arrest.

If you're saying that I was sitting around and said, "Let's find something to take out so I can jump on YASNY!" then you're wrong. That's not how I operate, and if that's your "long term general observation" you're much mistaken. As far as spin, I contend that I wasn't spinning in response to your post politically. I made a correction to something that was incorrect. There is no political spin in saying "This is about Congress, not the White House." QUOTE(jackie hayes @ Jun 23, 2006 -> 11:49 AM) Christ, I'm replying to minors. I'm saying that he was selective in picking the stories. Ha! Okay okay, just making sure.

As far as this case goes, I believe that Nuke's article itself says that they were merely in the beginning stages, and that Gonzales himself has dismissed the imminence of this threat. They should be arrested and charged, to be sure. But let's not declare mission accomplished and act as if we stopped something set to happen tomorrow or even soon. This is the abortion of a young plot, not the disruption of something developed.

Don't dismiss a perfectly valid point not with a rebuttal but with a eye-rolling icon and I won't request that you not be an idiot.

QUOTE(YASNY @ Jun 23, 2006 -> 11:41 AM) I was talking about generalities, over a long period of time of Soxtalk political postings. You picked one specific instance in order to enable your spin. You are saying that my spin in this thread is by pointing out an inaccuracy upon analysis? Come again -- is that directed at me? I have been critical of the French, but I can't recall me starting a thread about a cleanup in Congress or about someone being screwed for speaking Spanish -- although I did participate in threads of that nature -- and so I'm wondering if you're referring to me, and what exactly you mean. Are you bolstering YASNY's charge that I'm spinning, or am I misreading?

QUOTE(fathom @ Jun 23, 2006 -> 10:55 AM) I'm going to my first Sox game of the season tonight. Hopefully Ozuna is playing in LF tonight. With Pettitte's great move, Pods wouldn't do any damage on the bases anyways. Have fun!

QUOTE(YASNY @ Jun 23, 2006 -> 11:33 AM) You've still got to get your political spin in there, don't you? I was pointing out that your statement was analytically inaccurate. Pointing out that the Congress killed a minimum wage increase is about the Congress (specifically, the Senate) and not the Administration. Conservatives, being in power, will gravitate toward each other and help one another maintain power by putting their positive spin in things. Liberals, being out of power, naturally want it back and point out what they consider the flaws in the current Administration. That explains the discrepancy quite well, I think.

QUOTE(LowerCaseRepublican @ Jun 23, 2006 -> 11:30 AM) Really now -- why does the Ambassador hate America so much? And as for the war being handled well, even Nuke can attest to the lack of a post-war plan being set up by military planners. From: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/artic...-2004Dec24.html The U.S. military invaded Iraq without a formal plan for occupying and stabilizing the country and this high-level failure continues to undercut what has been a "mediocre" Army effort there, an Army historian and strategist has concluded. "There was no Phase IV plan" for occupying Iraq after the combat phase, writes Maj. Isaiah Wilson III, who served as an official historian of the campaign and later as a war planner in Iraq. While a variety of government offices had considered the possible situations that would follow a U.S. victory, Wilson writes, no one produced an actual document laying out a strategy to consolidate the victory after major combat operations ended. Looking at the chaos that followed the defeat of the Saddam Hussein regime, a military officer's study says, "The United States, its Army and its coalition of the willing have been playing catch-up ever since." "While there may have been 'plans' at the national level, and even within various agencies within the war zone, none of these 'plans' operationalized the problem beyond regime collapse" -- that is, laid out how U.S. forces would be moved and structured, Wilson writes in an essay that has been delivered at several academic conferences but not published. "There was no adequate operational plan for stability operations and support operations." CS Monitor: US Postwar Plan Almost Non-existant http://www.csmonitor.com/2006/0228/dailyUpdate.html And Minors: How can Al Qaeda be almost in complete destruction yet we've stopped lots of attacks here? (If they're destroyed, they shouldn't have the power and ability to go forward with lots of attacks) I won't even get into the preventative detentions being the main conduit for radicalizing the population against the United States (since they arrested, treated miserably and later released many innocent people since most of the arrestees were innocent people) We caught Saddam and killed Zarqawi. How can you say that we haven't "planned" or in any way back up that Gregory Pratt fellow when he says that the planning has been a disgrace?

Well, yes and no. The minimum wage story was about Congress and not the Administration. True enough.

There you go again with the sanctimony. Please, don't be an idiot. "LOLZ! WE'VE BEEN ATTACKED B4, BUT NO ATTACKS AFTER WE INSTITUTED PATACTANDWIRETAPZ! THAT MEANS WE BAD B4 BUT GR8 NOW!!" I repeat: we have stopped terrorist attacks, and major ones, without the Patriot Act and Wiretapping. All I said was that we've been able to stop terrorist attacks before without the Patriot Act/NSA Wiretaps, and that we could do it again. When there's another terrorist attack on American soil -- and, inevitably, there will be -- should I stupidly roll my eyes and say, "LOLZ!! LOLZ!! PATACT AND WIRETAPZ NO WORK LOLZ!!" like you so flippantly dismiss past tactics? And, finally, bringing up Oklahoma City is intellectually dishonest, as it's a different beast than 9/11. If that is what you think happened then you are a fool. Terrorists are far too smart for something like that. QUOTE(LowerCaseRepublican @ Jun 23, 2006 -> 11:08 AM) 1. Innocent until proven guilty. After they went 0 for 5,000 in their initial post-9/11 roundups claiming that people were terrorists/wanting to blow things up, I'm a bit hesitant in saying "OMG WE CAUGHT TEH TERRORISTS!!!11!11!1! ELEVENTY!" 2. I didn't see anything in the article pointing towards this "success" being attributed to the Unneeded Safeguard Abolition Preparing Americans To Readily Ignore Overt Totalitarianism Act (USA PATRIOT Act) or the illegal, warrantless wiretapping. What I did see rather was the "on-the-ground" intelligence being used with an undercover operative and good old detective work of getting information from neighbors. The ends do not justify the means. If (and a big if) they did act in an illegal fashion (via warrantless taps, etc.) to gather information, it doesn't justify the illegal methods they used to elicit the information. 3. Gonzales said there never was an immediate threat to the alleged targets. "We felt that the combination of the planning and the overt acts taken were sufficient to support this prosecution and that's why we took this action," Gonzales said. "There is no immediate threat ... part of the reason for that is because they didn't have the materials they requested, they didn't receive the weapons, at least we don't know of." So, the organization wasn't an immediate threat, didn't have the materials and didn't have weapons. WTF kind of terrorist group is that? I mean, talk about f***ing lazy in getting off the boards. If, and this is a big if, they actually prove that the people are guilty then hoo-f***ing-ray, we caught some terrorists and actually prosecuted them. But 'til then, color me a bit skeptical because the track record of claiming people are terrorists and actually convicting them of the charge has been really clear in the fact that the government often times fails to do so.

QUOTE(NorthSideSox72 @ Jun 23, 2006 -> 08:26 AM) Minors: has it occurred to you that perhaps there is some degree of truth in the points being made in ALL SIX of those articles/threads? Shut up. Liberals just want to tear down the President because they're crazy hippies. Conservatives are fighting for truth justice and the American way. That's the lesson to be taken! Don't you know? And Liberals are on the run. Running like Osama. So they've gotta smear Bushie. Like Beard Boy does in his tapes. The bastards! And Conservatives gotta speak truth to power Tell the world how good things are Or else the Libral media They're no good! -------------- Let's analyze a bit: Good story. Which turned out not to be proof by the DOD's own admission. Those Liberal Cranks! As said by our Ambassador in Iraq's memo! THAT LIBERAL f***ER! Well it was, wasn't it? But I guess we should ignore that and not mention it. Besides, don't Conservatives consider this good news? They do!

QUOTE(NUKE_CLEVELAND @ Jun 23, 2006 -> 12:51 AM) Anyone want to venture a guess if the Patriot Act/Wiretapping played a role in this? Yeah, I'll bite, if no one else will do anything but cheers it. I'm willing to say that Foreign Intelligence, likely from the CIA or some other source, had more to do with this than Domestic Wiretapping for sure, and possibly than the Patriot Act. Of course, I haven't got a single problem with the Patriot Act, but I don't like Domestic Wiretapping. My guess is so because we've caught plenty of terrorists before and broken up terrorist cells without the NSA Wiretapping Program, and without the Patriot Act. I'm sure we could very well do it again. I'd bet that someone we have captured somewhere overseas has more to do with this than we do -- someone giving us a tip, perhaps, or someone we forced one out of. I think it's petty to oversimplify this by saying, "LOL PATRIOT ACT I'LL DRINK TO THAT LOL!!" You know what I'll drink to? The work of the FBI and the analysts at the CIA.

QUOTE(Rex Kickass @ Jun 23, 2006 -> 08:42 AM) Yes, I remember John Kerry's sing "Give Peace a Chance" plank in his foreign policy platform well. I think I remember it being next to George Bush's "Eat the Old" program proposal as a way to save money on school lunches. I luuuuv Rex.