StrangeSox

QUOTE (Jake @ Jul 24, 2013 -> 12:02 PM) Looks a lot like maps of black population density Not that racism would have anything to do with income inequality You know, I can't recall seeing a study that compared economic quintile mobility by race, gender, etc.

Balta's just pulling your leg, the earth is only 6000 years old.

There's also the new study that the NYT article was based on: http://www.equality-of-opportunity.org/ This appears to be the chance of any upward mobility at all for any quintile (other than the top, obviously). It's also by "communting zone," not county as I said above, and they did try correcting for cost-of-living differences but found no overall change.

QUOTE (HickoryHuskers @ Jul 24, 2013 -> 10:55 AM) I would like to point out the relative uselessness of this graph. It is specifically tracking movement from the bottom 20% to the top 20%. I'd be much more interested in seeing a graph tracking the movement from the bottom 20% to the other three quintiles. I'd rather be first in that graph than this one. Here's a pretty good study, I know I've seen others like it before: http://www.frbsf.org/economic-research/pub...ity-dream-data/ Overall, you can look at the Gini coefficient. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_count...income_equality

QUOTE (iamshack @ Jul 24, 2013 -> 10:42 AM) Much higher? Yes, maybe 2 or 2.5 times as much, but still pretty s***ty odds. There's a caveat here, and it's that this article looked at 2011 income and if you'll notice, the higher-mobility areas overlay very nicely with the shale boom areas. When that boom starts to subside, the higher mobility in those areas will decline as well. What I think we all often forget when talking about poverty is poverty outside of urban areas. The deep south and Appalachia are deeply impoverished in many areas. I've driven though a lot of rural Georgia and South Carolina and, aside from the climate, it looks little different than Gary and other run-down urban areas.

thought some might be interested in this graph of economic mobility by county: from this expansive NYT article http://www.nytimes.com/2013/07/22/business...p&_r=2&

I'd prefer they stop foreclosing on the wrong people!

Bank reposes wrong house, sells homeowner's stuff

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Jul 23, 2013 -> 11:57 AM) Yeah, he should be hanging out on left wing blogs and publications instead! QUOTE (Y2HH @ Jul 23, 2013 -> 12:07 PM) Facebook feeds can give you an actual glimpse into someones life. Just look at their timeline...pictures of their 7$ Starbucks, their steak at Cap Grille, and an endless stream of bars, where beers are 5$ each, when a 12 pack at the store is 9$. Those feeds can show you why they're broke, and it sure as hell isn't the "man" keeping them down. The working poor generally aren't sitting on facebook, that's what is lol-worthy. e.g. QUOTE (Y2HH @ Jul 23, 2013 -> 01:06 PM) I have a sense of humor, but it's quite a bit different when you're posting stuff about your children than posting all the awesome places you're going too/spending money on, and then b****ing to me about finances and how unfair everything is. is not really relevant to poverty and working-class poverty in this country.

lol, facebook feed

QUOTE (iamshack @ Jul 22, 2013 -> 03:10 PM) What exactly would be evidence, in your mind, that racial profiling does reduce crime? Some sort of study that comes to that conclusion. Every one that I know of comes to the opposite conclusion. In the meantime, we stop enacting racist policies like S-A-F. That's it. I don't need an alternative beyond that in order to criticize S-A-F. We aren't facing some crime epidemic (we're at 50-year lows), but when you increasingly target a certain community for policing, it means more marginalization, more incarceration and that means more poverty. S-A-F makes things worse now and in the future. There are volumes of writings on this out there and I won't pretend that I, personally, know the sure-path forward. But that doesn't mean I can't tell when we're heading in the wrong direction. tl;dr we stop smashing our hands with the hammer and then we worry about fixing the broken bones.

QUOTE (Jenksismyb**** @ Jul 22, 2013 -> 02:24 PM) To be slightly more fair to the moronic list they put out, I read over the weekend that those numbers were based on actual figures provided by McDonalds workers. It's not like they just made them up. And some of the categories/numbers do not represent what people are saying the represent. The incomes, for example, were after-tax and after-benefit deductions. The 2nd income was meant to be either a 2nd job or a spouses income from their job. Health costs were co-pays, not insurance. I don't remember if they explained the $0 for heat, since that's obviously dumb, but maybe it was directed to a McDonald's franchise group located in a place where you don't need heat. IMO the problem wasn't the list but of the purpose behind the list - trying to argue that a McDonald's job is a career job. Duke, despite being a bit over the top, is 100% correct that burger flippers at McDonald's shouldn't expect to get a large salary and benefits for doing a menial job. McDonald's jobs are meant for high schoolers, not 50 year olds. Unless you're on the management track you really don't have any business complaining about your pay. Go find a better job if you have a mortgage, 2 kids and a car to pay for. The average age of a fast-food worker today is 30 years old. These are the s*** jobs our current economy offers.

QUOTE (iamshack @ Jul 22, 2013 -> 03:00 PM) Post that again, SS...I'd like to respond. I deleted it and couldn't reconstruct it. I thought it'd be a better conversation to respond to your other post.

QUOTE (iamshack @ Jul 22, 2013 -> 02:25 PM) Is it that simple? If it was so simple, do you think the Mayor of NY would be convinced that this program is working for NYC? There is no evidence that racial profiling is actually effective in reducing crime and plenty of evidence that it leads to negative outcomes for the profiled communities, both from the official profilers and from society at large. You get at this below, that it marginalizes these communities and perpetuates the problems. I think this is a reasonable comment. I think that, as you noted, the reality is that poverty is a vicious cycle that leads to more poverty and more violence. This is multiplied when we have public policy that results in systemic racism, as S-A-F does, further marginalizing people. The alternative is to stamp out these policies where we see them, stop marginalizing communities, and work to end poverty. S-A-F will never do anything but send more black men to jail or the grave and harass countless others. That will only make things worse in the long run, not better.

QUOTE (iamshack @ Jul 22, 2013 -> 12:57 PM) Which is why I stay out of it for the most part...but sometimes it just gets tiring...I've found that most of the times I thought there was an answer to a problem of which I didn't have much experience with, it became clear that the answers weren't as obvious as my experience level with that problem increased. With age, I think most people would generally agree that things aren't as simple or easy as one might think most of the time, and that there actually were smarter people that came before you and noticed these same things you did....it's why many people begin on the left and slowly drift to the right as they age. This is a boring cliche that appeals to tradition in support of the status quo, allowing the person to never actually have to put forth a defense of the policy or ideology in question. If you want to criticize TNC or his article for being elitist, too intellectual, or naive, go ahead. Make an argument. Point out what he's missing, why he's wrong, why Cohen's right. So far you've said essentially nothing other than "while how would he solve crime?!"

QUOTE (iamshack @ Jul 22, 2013 -> 12:50 PM) I would like to see these same folks do a ride along in some of these inner-city neighborhoods and then lecture the officer on how he is profiling...I think there is a disconnect between many of these commentators and those in the real world trying to deal with some of these issues, TNC grew up in a working-class family in Baltimore, MD.

QUOTE (iamshack @ Jul 22, 2013 -> 12:16 PM) I never said anything specific about the article or TNC, because I only read the excerpts you provided and I don't know who this mythical TNC even is. What I did comment on was the Cohen article. The only reference I made to the TNC article was to point out all the fancy language used to complain about the current state of affairs, while meanwhile offering nothing of any substance as to how to actually improve the current system. See, here's the thing. Ending S-A-F right now, simply doing that, is improving the current system. That's what you keep ignoring. TNC has a blog at the Atlantic. It has an extensive archive. He has written tens of thousands of words there. He's also had editorials in places like the NYT. You seem to be implying that every article he writes needs to contain a detailed counterproposal for whatever policy his criticizing. That's just silly and you know it. You're a well-educated lawyer. You have several years of schooling on me. What words in that TNC article don't you understand?

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Jul 22, 2013 -> 12:54 PM) So is ranting about this case on Soxtalk's filibuster... When have I ever said that arguing on message boards is anything but entirely pointless?

QUOTE (iamshack @ Jul 22, 2013 -> 12:00 PM) Take your intellectual elitism and shove it right up your ass. It does nothing but obfuscate the issue at hand with needless details. You know damn well I understand the issue enough to debate whether racial profiling is worth the inequality to those it targets This is an easy argument to make when you're not part of the targeted class. [citation needed] S-A-F is akin to hand-smashing precisely because it's so dumb, pointless and harmful.

QUOTE (DukeNukeEm @ Jul 21, 2013 -> 12:46 PM) Getting a second job is probably a good start. You really shouldn't be able to sustain yourself working at McDonalds, that's a job for teenagers or people who are dependent on others. If you're trying to support yourself (or heaven forbid, others) McDonalds aint gonna work, its not supposed to, its not that kind of job. Either find a whole new job or find another to add on top of it. Dont like working 74 hour weeks? Tough s***, I dont like paying taxes, get to work. Ok, even if we buy into your Randian logic, you're still sort of missing why this was so ridiculous. $0/month for heating.

QUOTE (iamshack @ Jul 22, 2013 -> 12:03 PM) As I said earlier, I am reacting more generally to the typical liberal approach to this sort of issue. It applies here and your attempts to avoid the conversation through the use of pointless specifics regarding this particular article don't add anything to the discussion I am trying to have. If you don't wish to have it, don't reply to my posts. No, you talk specifically about stop-and-frisk and TNC's article for multiple posts, even going as far as saying he shouldn't write his article until he pretends to be a cop for a few months. You made an irrelevant general whine about "where are the solutions?!!" in response to a specific article; don't try to pretend I'm the one trying to change the topic. It's not "pointless specifics" to point out that your response to the article I posted are 1) wrong factually (liberals and the left offer plenty of solutions) 2) wrong logically (you don't need alternatives to offer criticisms of the status quo) and 3) irrelevant (your criticisms about political will and democrats have exactly zero relevance to the NYPD's stop-and-frisk policy). If you want to have a discussion about something completely irrelevant to the article I posted, have at it, but don't try to pretend that you weren't directly criticizing the article and the topic it addressed. QUOTE (iamshack @ Jul 22, 2013 -> 10:29 AM) That is all fine and good...all that fancy language to describe how wrong Cohen is...tell me how to approach crime in an alternative manner! This is my issue with the far left...always pointing out the inadequacies but rarely coming up with realistic solutions...it's not enough to always point out how wrong the rest of us are if you never provide a realistic alternative... QUOTE (iamshack @ Jul 22, 2013 -> 10:47 AM) But Cohen says this...he points out that there have to be other factors involved...and don't get me wrong, I don't really agree with Cohen and I said as much last week...but the article SS posted today, and many articles that these intellectuals on the left write, are fantastic at pointing out inadequacies, but not so much at bringing real, workable alternative solutions to the table. Yes, we'd love to approach crime in a manner which never suspects or inconveniences or violates anyone simply because of what others that might share something in common with them have done, or because some folks are just downright racist...but we still have to keep our streets safe, do we not? Ok, how should we do it better? QUOTE (iamshack @ Jul 22, 2013 -> 11:12 AM) I don't know the solution. And I don't pretend to be an expert on the subject. And this is precisely the reason why people in law enforcement become frustrated with folks accusing them of being a bunch of racist pigs...yes, it is rather easy to point out the flaws while you're sitting back in your recliner pontificating about your Utopian police force...but until you actually are out there in the middle of it, it's very difficult to understand what law enforcement is dealing with. I'm not saying that I have all the answers, but until I have some kind of idea of what it actually is to try and keep the streets safe every day, especially in a major metropolitan area, I don't feel it is particularly genuine of me to merely sit by and fling insults at the very people who are providing for much of my safety. Maybe TNC should get his ass out on the streets with the cops every weekend for 6 months and then write this column.

QUOTE (iamshack @ Jul 22, 2013 -> 12:00 PM) So now I am trolling? Gotcha. concern-trolling is not lolz-trolling, it's exactly what you're doing in these last few posts. ""concern trolling" as "offering a poisoned apple in the form of advice to political opponents that, if taken, would harm the recipient""

Stop-and-frisk is a creation of the NYPD. Talking about "political will" and Democrats and liberals is a bunch of irrelevant nonsense.

QUOTE (farmteam @ Jul 22, 2013 -> 11:57 AM) I thought shack was just saying that you can't look at things of this nature in a vacuum, and the political will to actually effect changes is a natural part of any practical discussion... "political will" is sort of a irrelevant here. It was a policy enacted in NYC by NYC. It has nothing to do with Washington Democrats. NYPD can end this terrible policy at any time.

QUOTE (iamshack @ Jul 22, 2013 -> 11:56 AM) He isn't, and I don't even know who TNC is. I confess. I was writing a general reaction to the typical liberal position on issues like this. All fluff and ideology, but no realistic alternatives. This is where we hit the concern trolling BS. The realistic alternative is "stop S-A-F." That's it. That's as far as we need to go. We don't need an alternative before we stop smashing our own hands.