StrangeSox

QUOTE (iamshack @ Jul 22, 2013 -> 12:00 PM) So now I am trolling? Gotcha. concern-trolling is not lolz-trolling, it's exactly what you're doing in these last few posts. ""concern trolling" as "offering a poisoned apple in the form of advice to political opponents that, if taken, would harm the recipient""

Stop-and-frisk is a creation of the NYPD. Talking about "political will" and Democrats and liberals is a bunch of irrelevant nonsense.

QUOTE (farmteam @ Jul 22, 2013 -> 11:57 AM) I thought shack was just saying that you can't look at things of this nature in a vacuum, and the political will to actually effect changes is a natural part of any practical discussion... "political will" is sort of a irrelevant here. It was a policy enacted in NYC by NYC. It has nothing to do with Washington Democrats. NYPD can end this terrible policy at any time.

QUOTE (iamshack @ Jul 22, 2013 -> 11:56 AM) He isn't, and I don't even know who TNC is. I confess. I was writing a general reaction to the typical liberal position on issues like this. All fluff and ideology, but no realistic alternatives. This is where we hit the concern trolling BS. The realistic alternative is "stop S-A-F." That's it. That's as far as we need to go. We don't need an alternative before we stop smashing our own hands.

QUOTE (iamshack @ Jul 22, 2013 -> 11:51 AM) This is oversimplification and probably the main reason why the Dems often have the better ideas, but the inability to place them into reality. "Stop stupid policies like S-A-F" is a better idea than "keep doing stupid policies like S-A-F." "Dems" put S-A-F into place (TNC criticizes Obama for hinting at nominating the man responsible to replace Napalitano in the very same article you said he shouldn't write before he pretends to be a cop for six months). TNC is not the DNC. This is just straight-up concern trolling that results in acceptance of the status quo.

QUOTE (iamshack @ Jul 22, 2013 -> 11:40 AM) I did address the main point...several times, in fact. The fact that some commentators are pointing out inequalities and discrimination and outright racism is all fine and good. Yes, they are entitled to their opinions. And yes, many times they make some good points. But at some point we need to see more political will and less pontificating out of the Democratic party than has been shown in the last decade or so. Who cares about the DNC? Ta-Nehisi isn't the DNC. Saying that the DNC is weak-willed and allows itself to be rolled by a reactionary Republican party has f*** all to do with anything TNC is writing. Why is TNC accountable for the lack of political will in the DNC?

QUOTE (iamshack @ Jul 22, 2013 -> 11:41 AM) It's not that simple and that is the problem with this cartoon. Why is he smashing his hand in the first place? What is the issue at hand which needs to be addressed which is causing him to smash his hand in the first place? Who cares? Demanding an alternative to a stupid idea that is immediately rectified by stopping said stupid idea is equivalent to defending the stupid idea in the first place. If something is bad and dumb, stop doing it. You don't need to magical alternative to stop doing bad, dumb things. S-A-F is a bad, dumb thing. TNC doesn't need to solve poverty and crime or be a police officer for six months in order to offer valid criticisms of the program.

congrats!

lol, ok you're still failing to address the main point, which is that you don't need a solution to point out when something is rotten. edit: I'll just go back to this cartoon. I don't need to know how to fix your broken hand nor do I need to smash my own hand with the hammer before I can give criticism/advice about stopping smashing your hand with a hammer. Stuff like "stop-and-frisk" is akin to smashing your hand with a hammer. Things improve immediately as soon as you stop smashing your damn hand with a hammer. No need to worry about alternative instruments to smash your hand with or what you could do to fix the damage you've already done. Just stop doing it.

QUOTE (lostfan @ Jul 22, 2013 -> 11:06 AM) The radical left-winger in me says "doing something" about crime is about more than just having more cops. Right, I'd imagine that TNC would say that a major source of crime and violence is poverty. So, before he can criticize policies like stop-and-frisk, he needs to figure out how to solve American poverty and the crime it induces?

QUOTE (iamshack @ Jul 22, 2013 -> 10:56 AM) Because someone has to, do they not? My point is that the left seems to devote a disproportionate amount of energy to pointing out inadequacies in the current system rather than devoting their energy to actually improving the situation themselves. It's very easy to point out the flaws...and I get it, people need to be educated of those flaws before change usually occurs, but this has been a theme with the Democratic party for the last decade...the better ideology, but a lack of political will to actually put it into action. Ok, now you're conflating "the far left" (radical communists, anarchists, etc.) with "the left" with the Democratic Party. "So what's your solution?!" is just a weak defense of the status quo. It's not an actual argument and I'll note that you didn't address the part where I suggest that we simply end racist policies. We don't need any alternative to stop with garbage like "stop-and-frisk" and demanding a comprehensive solution to crime and poverty before we can talk about the failures of the current system only serves to justify those same failures.

QUOTE (iamshack @ Jul 22, 2013 -> 10:47 AM) But Cohen says this...he points out that there have to be other factors involved...and don't get me wrong, I don't really agree with Cohen and I said as much last week...but the article SS posted today, and many articles that these intellectuals on the left write, are fantastic at pointing out inadequacies, but not so much at bringing real, workable alternative solutions to the table. Yes, we'd love to approach crime in a manner which never suspects or inconveniences or violates anyone simply because of what others that might share something in common with them have done, or because some folks are just downright racist...but we still have to keep our streets safe, do we not? Ok, how should we do it better? Well, a good first step would be to stop engaging in explicit racial profiling and stereotyping. Why is it up to the black community (and non-black liberals and leftists concerned with these issues) to come up with alternatives for systemic racism before systemic racism can be ended? Why does TNC need to propose some "real, workable solution" to American crime and poverty to point out how racist and awful stop-and-frisk is?

It's easy to defend a broken status quo that way (especially when you're not on the receiving end of dysfunction), but it's not an actual defense. I don't need a cure for cancer in order to diagnose it. I'd hardly associate TNC with the "far left," either.

TNC had some thoughts on that Richard Cohen article I shared last week that I thought were worth bringing up: http://www.theatlantic.com/national/archiv...ofiling/277871/

QUOTE (Jenksismyb**** @ Jul 16, 2013 -> 04:59 PM) So again, using that definition everyone is racist, every opinion about race is racist, and now racism has no meaning. That is absurd. Everyone has racist prejudices and biases. That doesn't mean racism has no meaning or that every opinion about race is racist. That doesn't follow at all.

QUOTE (iamshack @ Jul 16, 2013 -> 04:51 PM) I understand that. But you know what is biological, smarty pants? Making decisions based on past experiences. It's called learning. If I see someone wearing concealing clothing (because they actually wanted to conceal their identity and not make a fashion statement) committing a crime, it arouses my suspicions a bit when I see someone wearing this "uniform." We evolved in this manner because those are the folks that managed to live, while the idiots who didn't learn, died. We've evolved all sorts of faulty mental processes that lead to illogical conclusions and judgements. We're great at recognizing imagined patterns that aren't actually there. That doesn't mean we should accept our cognitive biases instead of working to become aware of them and correct them. Martin was walking back from the store, not wandering aimlessly. Going for a stroll around a neighborhood should also not be viewed as suspicious. There was a light rain, which is why he had his hood up. It's not like we have to reach for a case where this line of reasoning that says it was suspicious was 100% stupid, wrong and tragic. there is nothing wrong with an adult eating skittles and wearing hoodies. Hoodies aren't generally associated with children AFAIK. We don't live in an ideal world, but that doesn't mean we need to just accept the flaws that there are. It's easy for a bunch of white guys to say "oh well, maybe black people just shouldn't wear hoodies" since it doesn't effect them.

QUOTE (Jenksismyb**** @ Jul 16, 2013 -> 04:51 PM) Hey, if you keep calling it racial stereotyping and not racism, you and I can be in agreement. Race-based stereotypes and prejudices are racist.

QUOTE (Jenksismyb**** @ Jul 16, 2013 -> 04:48 PM) Interesting that it's "stereotyped" instead of being victims of racism. Poor white people are stereotyped by class/wealth. Dumb hillbillies, trailer trash, rednecks, etc. The Hispanic example you mentioned would be race-based. Right, your view of racism is limited to open white supremicism. That, thankfully, has largely been stamped out from society, or at least open society. But there is still widespread systemic racism, and pretending that it doesn't exist, that people don't suffer from it (and others benefit) only helps to perpetuate the system. Yes, it is about racial prejudices and racial stereotypes. A racial prejudice is racism. A racial stereotype is racism. And I've said strongly that everybody has prejudices and biases, many of them ingrained and not even conscious. I've posted studies and articles on this. But in our society, in 21st century America, these prejudices and stereotypes still build barriers for primarily non-white people. That's what systemic racism is, it's the aggregate of individual, even unintentional racism into a very real force.

QUOTE (Y2HH @ Jul 16, 2013 -> 04:41 PM) I think we agree, but there are certain things you have to just "give up on" until we evolve as a society much more than we have. Why don't you try sporting a toothbrush mustache for a few days in public and see how society reacts? Is it fair? Nope. Does that matter? Not at all, as I guarantee you'll get laughed at by some, and profiled and dubbed a racist by others. Ok but systemic racism isn't something I'm willing to give up on.

QUOTE (iamshack @ Jul 16, 2013 -> 04:36 PM) That's simply not true. There are plenty of white teenagers that arouse my spidey senses because of the way they act and dress. It's part of our biological makeup, SS, it's not always racism. Suspicion based on dress is 100% cultural. Nothing biologically tells you to be fearful of a hooded sweatshirt. It's only a uniform if you're black. I'd also like to point out that suspicious actions keep getting brought up, but that's not relevant to this topic. Trayvon Martin was walking home from the store, talking on the phone and wearing a hoodie. He wasn't doing any suspicious. Suspicion based on actions are much more legitimate, though those can be influenced by stereotypes as well. Just this last weekend I called 911 on a white teen in front of my house, but it was because he was caving in the door of his girlfriend's car, not because of the way he was dressed and that I didn't recognize him.

QUOTE (Y2HH @ Jul 16, 2013 -> 04:35 PM) For f***s sakes, it's just cloths, change them. I'd rather we change society to eliminate this type of bulls***, though.

QUOTE (Y2HH @ Jul 16, 2013 -> 04:32 PM) I would if I was black. How's that for an answer? I just gave an example in which we all do it to some extent. It's not fair, but we do it...and I'd go out of my f***ing way to do it if I knew it was going to get me cross looks in public. Is it fair that I can't wear shorts and a hockey jersey to work or they'd look at me like a scumbag and profile me as such? Nope. Clothing doesn't make me who I am, but I know how I'd get looked at for doing it, so I don't. This was cross-posted with my response to shack, but the same thing applies. Pragmatically, it is something some people have to consider because of racist stereotypes. But that doesn't mean that we as a society need to accept and perpetuate these stereotypes.

QUOTE (iamshack @ Jul 16, 2013 -> 04:31 PM) No, but wouldn't you say it's fair that common sense says not to wear things that are generally associated with criminal behavior? I'm going to say it again, but it's only "associated with criminal behavior" for non-whites. Pragmatically, is this something non-whites have to consider? Unfortunately, yes. That doesn't mean we should accept it as an unchangeable fact of nature, though. It's like blaming a girl who was wearing a skirt for getting raped. No, f*** that, blame the rapist and blame the people clinging to racial stereotypes that view black men as criminals.

QUOTE (Jenksismyb**** @ Jul 16, 2013 -> 04:25 PM) If we start seeing middle aged white guys committing lots of crime while wearing hoodies on the nightly news, i'm sure society would respond the same way. See, in one post you tell me that I 'scream racism!' too much and in the very next post you try to justify racial stereotyping black men in hoodies.

QUOTE (Jenksismyb**** @ Jul 16, 2013 -> 04:22 PM) Just like a white guy wearing a wife beater is, well, a wife beater, or a Hispanic male wearing a bandanna and a collared shirt with the top button buttoned is a thug. Poor white people and hispanics are also unfairly stereotyped. I feel you incessant need to pretend that racism isn't a very real thing perpetuates racism. Half of society tunes out discussions of racism because they're white.