StrangeSox

Seriously? Everything vs. anything. Important distinction. "Do not sexualize everything" is substantially different from "Do not sexualize anything"

QUOTE (Soxbadger @ May 14, 2013 -> 01:07 PM) Its the last defense of a beaten internet poster. Youre (haha intentional) argument is better than mine, but you dont know how to spell "your" so you are dumb! Doesnt work that way in real life, ideas count, spelling doesnt. Pretty sweet response in that you ignore everything but the jab.

QUOTE (Soxbadger @ May 14, 2013 -> 01:04 PM) Illini, To the best of my knowledge Disney isnt portraying an princess with an eating issue. I dont know if there is an actual correlation between Disney princesses and the eating disorders. What I can say is that if you are going to argue that the media can impact children negatively and cause disorders, that we should be honest and admit that it likely affects boys and girls equally. Unless of course we are arguing that girls are somehow different than boys and therefore are more susceptible to the media. But I dont believe that, I think boys and girls are equal. You're saying that an argument about a specific action by Disney should be made as broad as possible instead of focusing on the actual issue at hand. Advocacy involves both roles, and there's a place for both. If they're upset about a very recent move to sexualize a specific character, they don't need to (and probably shouldn't) launch into a 5000 word article on every issue with Disney characters or our culture's representation of ideals, sexualization of women, etc. I can't imagine modern feminists being a-okay with gender norms for boys or unrealistic standards and sexualization of childrens' movies.

QUOTE (iamshack @ May 14, 2013 -> 01:01 PM) Let me ask you this...is it any easier for men to try to attain the body that most men in these fantasies are portrayed with than it is for women to attain the body that women are portrayed with? Given that it's literally impossible for women to obtain the bodies portrayed in the media/culture without photoshop or rib-removal surgery?

QUOTE (iamshack @ May 14, 2013 -> 12:59 PM) Here you go again, flexing your intellectual muscles. To quote one of my favorite movie characters, I bet you feel strong and good. I only did that in response to Soxbadgers "look guys, we're being so rational here, but they're not!" crap.

QUOTE (iamshack @ May 14, 2013 -> 12:56 PM) See, this is what I love about you and Balta...you constantly rip on all the big bad wolves, meanwhile, you play that very role in here with your intellectual elitism. leave my over-played analogy alone, bro. (I don't think a lame Olympic medal joke is the mark of intellectual elitism!) See, I think you and I pretty much agree here. Women are sexualized and judged more and it impedes them more because men have power. It's a self-reinforcing cycle. This plays out in so much of femininity being sexualized and held to an unrealistic standard of beauty.

QUOTE (Soxbadger @ May 14, 2013 -> 12:56 PM) Well it goes hand in hand. Why do people weightlift, play football? To get girls/boys. Its all the same. That's a pretty reductionist view.

QUOTE (Soxbadger @ May 14, 2013 -> 12:55 PM) Its a pretty big assumption that its male driven, it actually may be more female driven. I think there are some studies that suggest females are harder on other females about looks than men are about other men. That would mean you need to make women more appealing because both sides judge. Now i cant find the evidence that quick, but it is something I do recall. It's culturally driven and yes, women can be the harshest critics of other women. It's male-driven to the extent that our culture is male-driven.

QUOTE (Soxbadger @ May 14, 2013 -> 12:47 PM) Shack and Jenks, I wouldnt bother. Weve now just gone into "personal opinion". While some of us can be rationale and admit that EVERYONE is being constantly judged by attractiveness, other people have to make up some argument that "it happens more to women". Everyone is judged by attractiveness. It's not very "rationale" (sic) to make up some arguments nobody is actually making in order to knock them down. Women are, without a question, sexualized in our society more than men. Nope! It's almost as if there was a very specific context for this story and thread, and it wasn't "boys taking steroids" and so it might not have included that! Who are these certain people? Are they the straw men you've beaten up?

QUOTE (Jenksismyb**** @ May 14, 2013 -> 12:47 PM) Nice backtrack. Still waiting for a quote there, buddy.

QUOTE (iamshack @ May 14, 2013 -> 12:45 PM) And men are judged on their ability to provide constantly, which leads to self-esteem and body issues for men and also marginalization. You put in a valiant effort for that silver medal, shack. Men are not judged on their ability "to provide" constantly and in all contexts. They may be judged by (some) women in the context of a potential partner, but it won't be a frequent topic of discussion in articles or interviews about a male politician or CEO or sports star. They won't be ogled for their "ability to provide" everywhere they go, it won't be a factor in their professional success (because that's sort of circular there). And more and more, women are independent and working on their own and not judging men on their ability to earn money. Nor would that lead to any sort of body issue, that part doesn't even make sense.

QUOTE (Soxbadger @ May 14, 2013 -> 12:39 PM) Dont waste your time Strangesox quit because he cant read a paragraph. In 1 second I found stats that show just how terrible steroid use is, but who cares! I saw about 40 separate lines, not any paragraphs. I wasn't going to take the time to break that s*** up. If you actually condense it to a readable paragraph I might!

QUOTE (Jenksismyb**** @ May 14, 2013 -> 12:39 PM) Go to a bar on a Friday night. All the women judge men equally, right? They all talk to the fat uglies as much as the tall muscular guys, right? Man, you just got gold in the 4x4 "not even remotely close to getting it" relay. A bar with drinking can often be a sexual/attractiveness context. The idea isn't that people are wrong or shouldn't judge others on sexual appeal ever. The reality is that women are judged on sexual appeal constantly, men aren't and that this leads to self-esteem and body issues for women and also marginalization.

QUOTE (Soxbadger @ May 14, 2013 -> 12:35 PM) I dont find it necessary to make every female character hot, but I dont find it necessary to make every male character hot. Thus if Im going to b**** at Disney, its going to be about both male and female characters. But I assume the mom in question doesnt want anyone to touch her beefcake Gaston. Are you aware of what the start of this discussion was? It was Disney deliberately changing a very recent character and sexualizing her. That's what is being criticized. They didn't also go back and sex-up the male characters in this movie, just the female lead.

QUOTE (iamshack @ May 14, 2013 -> 12:34 PM) I hate to break it to you, but men are pretty much constantly judged for their ability to provide, which equates how much money they make or how much power they have. Ok, that was a pretty broad question, I'll (generally) accept your answer here if you're referring to how a woman might judge a potential partner. Sure, absolutely. But women are judged for their physical attractiveness in non-sexual contexts constantly.

QUOTE (Soxbadger @ May 14, 2013 -> 12:30 PM) I did quote, I just removed the brackets because it was to long and would look really stupid. Hence why I used: Quote: Response: ------ But if that is your excuse for tapping out, so be it. I'm not tapping out, learn how to post to internet forums.

QUOTE (Jenksismyb**** @ May 14, 2013 -> 12:29 PM) OK great, where's the outrage that Don Draper/Jon Hamm is a sex symbol on TV. I certainty don't look that good in a suit! Where's the case where men are sexualized and judged on their attractiveness constantly? Go read some articles covering female CEO's, actors, and politicians and note how many times their appearance is deemed a legitimate topic of discussion. Then go read some articles about male CEO's, actors and politicians. Look at how many unattractive men hold prominent positions versus how many women.

QUOTE (iamshack @ May 14, 2013 -> 12:26 PM) But what are we judged on? Generally speaking, depends on the field. Sports? Merit for men, primarily looks for women. Most other fields? Mixes of who you know, race, class, educational background, some merit etc. etc. Sure, but not constantly on sexuality. They're also not in a dominant position of power so to whatever extent women judge men in a sexual manner in a non-sexual context, the actual impact is much less. Plus our culture as a whole doesn't reinforce the constant sexualization of men.

QUOTE (Soxbadger @ May 14, 2013 -> 12:24 PM) Strangesox, not responding to that wot until you learn how to use the quote function

QUOTE (Jenksismyb**** @ May 14, 2013 -> 12:21 PM) That's exactly what you want! You didn't say let's LESSEN the femanization/sexualization of females, you said let's get rid of it entirely. Quotation needed if this were the Olympics of "Not getting a single damn thing," you'd be taking home the gold. wee bit ironic.

QUOTE (iamshack @ May 14, 2013 -> 12:19 PM) Why do you suppose that is? What do you suppose women judge men on? Perhaps if we were in an inverted universe where women controlled most of the world and promoted and hired and elected other women with little or no regard for their looks, this would be relevant. As it is now, men aren't judged like this on their looks in damn near every aspect of their lives while women are.

QUOTE (Jenksismyb**** @ May 14, 2013 -> 12:15 PM) You're so afraid of offending anyone (that you like) that you want the entire world to change over it. No, I want the world to be a less-s***ty place where people are valued regardless of their looks. Yeah, see, there's a huge range between "morbidly obese" and "literally unrealistically skinny." What was wrong with the character before? Obesity and health sort of correspond in some aspects but not in others, and really only when you're in the "morbidly obese" range. Heavier people can be every bit as healthy as you or I, but they're going to be judged as lazy, out-of-shape fatties. For women, where so much comes back to sex appeal, this is even more of a problem. It's all part of the same context, and starting it at younger and younger ages only makes it worse.

QUOTE (Jenksismyb**** @ May 14, 2013 -> 12:16 PM) i.e., let's all be goo backs. Yes, that's the choice. Either everything feminine and female is turned into something about sex, or nothing can ever be turned into something about sex ever. Fantastic comprehension, there.

QUOTE (Soxbadger @ May 14, 2013 -> 12:06 PM) Fixed. Maybe if that is the argument, people would agree. But when you suggest/imply that it isnt happening with male characters or to males in general, it completely destroys the argument. It isn't happening to men to anywhere near the level that it happens with women in virtually every aspect of our society. When a bunch of dudes respond to a feminist criticism of culture by saying "but some guys get a s***ty deal too!" it doesn't destroy anything but their own credibility. More jenks-like intentionally bad-faith comprehension. Men are judged on their looks. Nobody has said otherwise. Women are judged on their looks damn near constantly and in probably every aspect of their lives. Their looks are central to any story if they're getting press coverage. They're a legitimate topic of conversation. Whether or not they give the President a tingle in his dingle is a legitimate comment for him to make at a press conference. They're not going to be a media figure without being at least moderately attractive.

QUOTE (Soxbadger @ May 14, 2013 -> 12:02 PM) Strangesox, I have no clue why you are getting all bent out of shape on this issue. Its scientific fact that humans prefer good looking people. We are hard wired to prefer symmetry. Partially, but what is "good looking" is, again, culturally dependent. We're not hard-wired to like Barbie-doll like figures. Why does a Disney character in a children's movie need to be sexed-up at all? What was wrong with the character before? Should every single character in every story be made to look as sexually attractive as possible? This sounds like a bunch of nonsense. What is the evidence that they lost money because Brave wasn't sexualized before? Disney creates some characters like that, but they aren't universally so. They also haven't gone back and sexed-up characters in movies released just a couple of years ago, either. Did they make Brave's father more attractive and sexual? There's nothing "nonsense" about not wanting every female character increasingly sexualized. Her agenda appears to be to not have things for little girls sexualized, and of course it's trying to push her own agenda. That's the point of an argument. Yes, there are. There's a much larger issue with body image and sexualization of women, and this story is very clearly about sexualizing a female. Not every argument and issue needs to address every possible related thing in the world. --noted biologist Soxbadger There's nothing biologically deterministic that says we need to sexualize everything and everyone feminine, that we need to judge women primarily on their looks and certainly much more than we judge men. You're approaching Jenks levels of not even bothering to try to understand the topic you insist is so obviously nonsense.