iamshack

QUOTE (Soxbadger @ Sep 18, 2014 -> 02:49 PM) Shack, I wouldnt waste your time. Im pretty sure your point was that each side thinks their correct and is dismissive of the other side. So before we just dismiss one side or the other, we should discuss why either side is right or wrong. As most of the argument is based on anecdotal evidence and opinion. Where were you an hour ago?

QUOTE (greg775 @ Sep 18, 2014 -> 02:51 PM) I think most reasonable people would agree spanking is wrong. My dad scared the crap out of me and my siblings and never hit us. Yet we were scared to death of him and doing anything to piss him off. Somehow he got that across without touching us. Ok, but is this any better?

QUOTE (StrangeSox @ Sep 18, 2014 -> 02:49 PM) For the sake of "those people need to go f*** themselves," I'd separate your typical 'spanking' from what we see in the photos of AP's kid or the tales of people who were beat and now beat their children with extension cords, belts, etc. I have no problem with those people being told to go f*** themselves, though that isn't going to change any minds. Fair enough, but this gives us an opportunity to discuss the issue of less-extreme forms of corporal punishment (i.e., spanking or other physical contact), which is something I'm actually interested in reading/learning about. However, everyone seems to just revert back to the extreme forms of punishment, which is a waste of time, considering not one person has posted justifying such methods.

QUOTE (StrangeSox @ Sep 18, 2014 -> 02:40 PM) on the other hand, plenty of cultural traditions persist for a variety of reasons that are not related to rational thought or reflective analysis of effective techniques for survival or whatever. All I've asked for is that everyone be invited to the table.

QUOTE (Quinarvy @ Sep 18, 2014 -> 02:36 PM) Basically what I've gathered is you think hitting a child is wrong, spanking is ok, and that millennials are spoiled. Please correct me if that's wrong, I'm legitimately lost. That's because my original point has been completely lost. I don't blame anyone trying to follow this for being lost. Essentially, what I've tried to state is that previous generations or in other cultures have employed or do employ some techniques of discipline which were more harsh than many today seem to think are appropriate. I have not once stated that I think these are appropriate. What I think is inappropriate, is dismissing everyone with that point of view with a wave of the hand and a "those people need to go f themselves" mentality. I asked Krush to explain his rationale a bit more, instead of just asking me to take his word for it. He has, to some degree. I think there is more to be gained from sharing our experiences and learning from them than summarily and judgmentally waving others away who we don't agree with, as if they are complete idiots who cannot contribute anything of value to the conversation. I have seen this approach taken on any number of issues, and frankly, I find it very obnoxious. As for my opinion of disciplining a child, I have no children, but I wouldn't employ spanking as a form of discipline even on a dog, if that illuminates how I feel about the issue.

QUOTE (Quinarvy @ Sep 18, 2014 -> 02:31 PM) I've lost track of Shack's argument. That tends to happen when you have 5 people misunderstanding your original point all challenging you at once. But you know what, Quin? This latest generation of message board posters knows everything; all the parenting experience that has occurred throughout the history of human civilization should be summarily dismissed with a wave of the hand because those people are stupid and need to go away.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Sep 18, 2014 -> 02:15 PM) The reason I didn't challenge this claim is that the literature actually strongly supports it (plus I had a seminar to go to). Study after study finds the same thing. Press report 1 Press release summarizing multiple studies Press report 2 of different study, same result Press report 3, international study, same result Press report 4, different study, same result If I need to get to 20 I can. This effect has been shown again and again at this point, physical discipline in children leads to children who are more likely to deploy violence on their own. By all means, please post 100. When you're finished, you can link to all the studies about the negative effects of the poor without access to smartphones.

QUOTE (IlliniKrush @ Sep 18, 2014 -> 01:27 PM) Or Charles Barkley, Reggie Bush, et al. I've talked to grandparents. I've talked to parents, aunts/uncles. However, it's my opinion that hitting a child, especially with a weapon, is not OK. I will never find someone's experience with hitting their child as worthwhile or valuable. How many times can I say I agree with you in regards to the bolded? What do you define as "hitting a child"?

QUOTE (LittleHurt05 @ Sep 18, 2014 -> 01:22 PM) As are the people you are defending. Instead of looking back at their experiences and thinking about how things could have gone differently, maybe for the positive, it's "If it happened to me, it has to be the right way." There are certainly some folks like that, and I don't mean for you to infer that I am "defending" them.

QUOTE (IlliniKrush @ Sep 18, 2014 -> 01:18 PM) Except they aren't saying that. As you would say, tell them to provide some sort of reason or logic behind it. That's why we said "go away." They are just saying since it happened to me, and "I'm OK" (which is patently false IMO if they end up hitting their kids), it's acceptable. Maybe you could ask one of them. What we've heard, and what you've referenced, is Mike Ditka in a 3-second ESPN clip. But I'll bet if you engaged a grandparent or a neighbor in a thoughtful conversation about their experiences it might be worthwhile and you wouldn't say "Go away, old man!"

QUOTE (bmags @ Sep 18, 2014 -> 01:17 PM) I'm going to strike you a deal, past generation, if you stop spanking your kids, they will kill each other less, do less drugs, have less sex and be smarter, but they will go outdoors less. I wonder what they will choose. Ok, so it's fair for you to say the fact that we spank children less results in a decrease in violence, but if I say obesity and lack of discipline in the same sentence, Balta insists I am saying one causes the other and insisting I link to 20 studies within five minutes. Fair enough.

QUOTE (bmags @ Sep 18, 2014 -> 01:10 PM) I think we can all agree that iamshack is a great example of how to debate respectfully. Honestly, you could learn a thing or two. I may not always be correct, but at the very least I try to explain my position on things and be reasonable and logical. I certainly don't tell those that disagree with me to go away or that their opinion has no value.

QUOTE (bmags @ Sep 18, 2014 -> 01:07 PM) From what I understand, kids these days are having less babies than ever, scoring better on tests than ever, smoking less cigarettes since cigarettes became popular, less violent than 50 years ago and returning to pre-war levels... That doesn't sound like a discipline problem. Hah! They also don't have to support their families as much by working, they have vastly more opportunities for schooling, they have incredible technological advances, etc. Are they doing any other drugs other than nicotine? What are the rates of obesity? ADHD? How much exercise do they get? How much time do they spend outdoors? How much do they actually interact with other children outside of school?

QUOTE (IlliniKrush @ Sep 18, 2014 -> 12:41 PM) Well, when it comes to beating a child with a stick or hitting children, my words and opinions can be strong. So be it. I've added plenty since typing the ever-offensive "go away," including reason and logic which you somehow keep ignoring, but asking me to add. And whether you think you are or not, you're defending the "older generation" and presumably people who hit their children, which I don't believe are one in the same. Again, you AND BALTA for that matter, are missing the point I'm trying to make (or at least one of them). I've agreed with you about beating a child with a stick. CAN WE ALL AGREE THAT WE BELIEVE IT IS WRONG TO BEAT A CHILD WITH A STICK? What offended me was your general attitude towards others who don't agree with you. They should agree with you, or go f*** themselves, because they are wrong. Often times you direct this at other cultures generations. This issue just happens to be the latest occurrence of this happening, and so I reacted. Got it?

QUOTE (LittleHurt05 @ Sep 18, 2014 -> 12:37 PM) What does "My mama beat me and I think I turned out OK" offer to the conversation? You are diminishing their experience, first of all. And secondly, let's not pretend this is that simple. That statement is an oversimplification of the real debate/discussion that needs to occur. And that is what kind of discipline is appropriate? Is physical punishment of any kind appropriate. Are we saying I can't whack my kid on the back of the head with the back of my hand if I see him disrespect an elder or kick a dog or something? Are we saying that a parent doing that is doing more harm than one who calls his kid a jackass for doing the same? It isn't as if all our elders were beaten with sticks. There were varying forms of discipline/punishment that were culturally acceptable. What I believe they are trying to say is that not all of those forms of punishment equated to abusing your child, and actually may have instilled valuable qualities in them.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Sep 18, 2014 -> 12:29 PM) I'm only working with what you give me. The other ones, "degree of respect" are harder to calculate, and that makes it much easier to claim that it is increasing because there is little data to support those points. IT's also interesting to note that in general, the students in US Schools have been performing better over the past decade even if we hear mostly about the opposite, which is in the opposite direction as well and might be something that can be quantified. I'm not stating those things are caused directly by a lack of discipline. I'm saying those things coupled with a lack of discipline are problematic. You might have noticed I mentioned what I believe might be causes after that post, and those included our food supply and rapid advances in technology.

QUOTE (IlliniKrush @ Sep 18, 2014 -> 12:13 PM) I've provided my reasoning and justification, and I do in almost every post. Now you're just making stuff up. I haven't attacked you once. As for the rest of your post, go read my edit. You make so many assumptions. I'm not exactly sure who you're defending here. This has nothing to do with you attacking anyone. And I am not defending anyone. I'm encouraging you to not be so offensive to those who don't share your opinion, or at the least, to substantiate your very strongly worded opinions with some sort of reason or logic. This notion that folks from previous generations who reference their experience with discipline need to "go away" is offensive to me. It offers very little to the conversation and doesn't particularly allow anyone to learn anything. I'm just supposed to agree with you and take your word for it.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Sep 18, 2014 -> 12:13 PM) The problem with your point is that the connection you made is anecdotal, looking at a correlation between "increasing bad things" and suggesting maybe they're related to decreases in this type of behavior. However, this leaves me the ability to argue against it by demonstrating where this correlation breaks down, and it does if you go to either state level numbers or racial numbers (racial numbers appear to dominate, btw). For example, the states with the most lenient discipline policies, like for example Texas, also are the states with the highest obesity rates, so if obesity increases and the decline of physical punishment are correlated, we'd expect the opposite. Furthermore, the rate of reported (not convicted as far as I can tell) abuse is far higher amongst the african american community than other races and the rate of obesity is similarly highest amongst that group. I'm not saying a decline in discipline results in obesity.

QUOTE (Iwritecode @ Sep 18, 2014 -> 12:09 PM) I think you’ve gone to the opposite extreme of no discipline at all. There are ways to discipline children other than hitting them. The thing is you have to start when they are young and you have to be consistent. Being a parent is not easy. I agree. I think some parents have gone to this opposite extreme, however.

QUOTE (IlliniKrush @ Sep 18, 2014 -> 11:54 AM) Because I don't agree with your point (or the "I was hit with a stick so it's OK" crowd), I'm missing it. Not at all. Because you come off as an obnoxious know-it all on a majority of your posts. You offer very strong opinions, often without any real reasoning or justification behind them. You insult those who disagree with you, and expect them to understand simply because you say so. Whether it is hockey, umpiring, or social issues. I find it irritating, not because I even disagree with your opinion often, but because you so seldom attempt to offer any reasoning/justification for it. I also find it incredibly disrespectful to those from other generations or cultures. I don't know you, but you don't strike me as some social/cultural trailblazer or pioneer. You generally trend liberal on social issues, but you're certainly not offering anything innovative or new. Basically, you're falling right into cultural/generational norms. And yet, you're criticizing those in other cultures/generations for doing the same. I find that irritating and ignorant. This has nothing to do with me disagreeing with you on punishing a child. I am in complete agreement with your opinion on this issue. It is the way in which you are expressing it which I am in disagreement.

QUOTE (IlliniKrush @ Sep 18, 2014 -> 11:38 AM) Your bold is EXACTLY why the "I was hit so it's OK" crowd needs to go away. Apply some logic to it, otherwise it's arrogant and obnoxious. I gave my reasons for why I think it's wrong and why it's lazy. It's wrong to hit a child, that's my opinion, disagree if you want, that's OK. As far as the "elders know more than you" argument you're trying to start here, save it. Nonsense. I don't need to be told "hey, actually, hitting your kid is OK." It's not, in my opinion, no matter what some other older person is trying to tell me. I gain nothing from their experience or "knowledge" in this case. If your kids are lazy, overweight, etc. all the things you say, then you're a bad parent, but I don't think the answer is "well had I hit them, everything would be great." It's not hit your kids OR don't parent at all. Hitting a child results in that child then presumably hitting their child. Or hitting their wife (gee where have we seen that?). Violence begets violence. There are other ways to parent to control the things you listed. You're missing the point entirely.

QUOTE (StrangeSox @ Sep 18, 2014 -> 11:34 AM) "Kids these days have it too easy, they're growing up to be a bunch of lazy, disrespectful ingrates" has been said about every generation ever. Yeah, I think we have all heard our parents or grandparents say this before. And I think it is something older people naturally say about younger people, probably out of envy much of the time. However, between our food supply and incredibly rapid advances in technology, I think we've starting to reach a crucial tipping point. The failure of some parents to administer any kind of discipline or exert appropriate control over their children is gravy. Edit: And btw, just as every older generation has commented on the younger generations, the same goes for the younger generations. They all think they're so much smarter than the generations that came before them. The point is that we are all in this together; we should use all of our available knowledge and experience.

QUOTE (IlliniKrush @ Sep 18, 2014 -> 11:04 AM) That crowd absolutely does need to go away. It's a shallow, stupid argument. I did it, so therefore I should do it to my kid. Oh yeah? Your parents did it to you, and now you take it out on them with a stick until they bleed. Good parenting. Sorry, in my book hitting a kid is never OK. You're teaching them the easiest, laziest way to do something, just hit somebody. Which, in turn, makes them hitters to their children. But it's OK because "hey it happened to us." Just because it happened to you does not make it OK whatsoever to do it to your own child. They turn it into a racial and regional thing, as if "you people don't understand," which is nonsense. You know what I understand? That hitting a kid is wrong. You're all bad parents for doing it, no matter what lazy line of reasoning you want to use. First of all, no one is telling you that you cannot have your own opinions. But you should support them with reason and logic, not just because you say so. That is arrogant and obnoxious. There have been a lot of people that have come before you and faced similar problems before. They have a lot of valuable experience which can be drawn upon. We need to invite everyone to the table and discuss issues and value their opinions and experiences. Not dismiss them out of hand because we are the latest generation with the benefit of the internet and other technologies and more money to spend on studies and develop theories. The overwhelming evidence seems to suggest that corporal punishment, especially extreme corporal punishment, has adverse psychological effects. No one is saying to dig our head in the sand and ignore that. We are always learning, both individually and as a society and as a culture. However, an equally offensive practice is to dismiss out of hand the wealth of knowledge those generations that have come before us have accumulated and pass on to us because "they are old" or because "they are different." While today''s generation of children may be better off as a result of escaping corporal punishment more than their predecessors, they also in many cases lack respect for their parents, their teachers, and their elders, and show a frightening lack of discipline and work ethic. They are overweight, have short attention spans, and are obsessed with instant gratification. Is this the result of the pendulum swinging too far in the opposite direction? I tend to think so. While we may not be harming our children anymore with too much discipline, are we readying them to succeed and be generally good people still?

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Sep 18, 2014 -> 10:06 AM) Odds are pretty good that if you child has gotten to that point, the parent is the main reason. Sure there are things like mental illness as qualifiers, but for a normal and healthy child, no, it is probably your fault as a parent. I think we basically agree in principle...although I'm not sure how many "normal and healthy" children there are these days.

QUOTE (LittleHurt05 @ Sep 18, 2014 -> 06:24 AM) The whole "I was hit or spanked as a child and I turned out fine" crowd just needs to go away. I'm sure as kids they also didn't sit in safe infant car seats, but they turned out fine, why should kids use them now? I despise these sorts of responses. Nothing against you personally, LH, but this is not an acceptable argument in this discussion. I agree with what I think you are trying to say, but no, they do not need to just go away. Believe it or not, not everything that is new is better than what is old, and not everything a future generation comes up with is correct while what the previous generation did was incorrect. It is probably pretty safe to say that utilizing corporal punishment, especially anything greater than "light" corporal punishment, has potentially more harmful psychological effects than helpful lessons learned. However, it seems to me with that there seems to come a trade-off in terms of a lack of discipline and respect taught to children.