steveno89

QUOTE (iamshack @ Jul 19, 2017 -> 08:59 AM) There is nothing "depreciating" about Kahnle. Kahnle is a bad two months away from being back to worthless. If he's the next Andrew Miller we made a mistake, but now that we have no bullpen we should be on track for the #1 overall draft pick. Can't see this team winning many more games down the stretch given our rotation, bullpen and offense.

QUOTE (2005thxfrthmmrs @ Jul 19, 2017 -> 08:53 AM) Yes, the only reason to accept a deal like this is if Rutherford is your guy, and you value him higher than the industry ranks him. (Trading 3 quality ML'er for one top 40 guy is not a good return). The bolded part nails it. I also find it funny that some guys want to treat it as if we traded Robertson for Clarkin, when in the Nationals thread they wanted guys like Kieboom, Soto, etc for Robertson. Clearly we also did not get good return on Robertson either. I like Rutherford a lot, but still feel like this isn't quite enough. A top 10 guy like Andujar, Adams, Sheffield or Mateo instead of Polo would have made this deal much more palatable. Of course we always want more, but the Yankees absorbing Robertson's entire contract I'm sure played into the negotiations. I'm sure we offered to take on salary for a better prospect return, but the Yankees were probably not willing to give up more. Each side has to view the deal as fair to them, and we ended up getting a solid overall package. Sox fans should be thrilled.

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Jul 19, 2017 -> 08:42 AM) If Kahnle becomes elite and Rutherford busts, the trade blew up in their faces. 60 strike outs in 36 innings. I saw something that if he has you 0-2, you are screwed. MLB hitters are 2-39 with 32 strikeouts if they fall behind him 0-2. Sox decided not to be greedy and hold out for a bigger return on Kahnle. A bad month and his trade value would be in the toilet instead of being viewed as a great trade piece. Sox were wise to cash in their main reliever chips now for a quality package. Clarkin is not a bad left handed pitching prospect, his issue has been injuries. Our system needed another lefty. Polo has some upside, and has a decent bat/speed Clippard sucks, but whatever

QUOTE (iamshack @ Jul 19, 2017 -> 08:24 AM) Come on, this is completely crazy talk. If that is the thinking, then who is Rutherford in the grand scheme of things? My point is nothing personal against the players themselves, but rather we should deal Robertson/Kahnle now to get what we can. A good closer does nothing for us in 17/18, nor does a great setup man in Kahnle. I'll take the prospects all day for where we are at in the rebuild. Rutherford is certainly the gem of the deal, and despite being several years away could be an impact player. What more were Sox fans really expecting? Have you seen what the return was for JD Martinez and Doolittle/Madson?

QUOTE (GenericUserName @ Jul 19, 2017 -> 08:21 AM) This point is completely irrelevant. First, I believe most people would agree that Robertson is highly priced, it is a fair price when looking at the markert for closers. Secondly, we were going to trade him, so the value of getting his salary off the books is the same for any trade we would make where we didn't take money. Except we did have to take money in the form of Clippard. Irrelevant to most fans? Probably, but it makes business sense for the Sox to save roughly $20 million for a rebuilding club. I can guarantee you Hahn shopped Robertson and Kahnle on their own and was not thrilled with the offers. A rebuilding club should always be trading relievers due to their volatility as I have stated many times. We will not miss any of the players we just traded, especially by the time we are ready to compete.

QUOTE (bmags @ Jul 19, 2017 -> 08:19 AM) The big disconnect here was basically money. Robertson got basically a non return because of the Frazier/robo cash. Kind of annoying but Robert and all. I'm sure Hahn shopped hard and felt this was going to be the best overall return. We all have skewed views from the insane returns that Chapman and Miller received last season. Lets not kid ourselves and pretend we really care all that much about dealing Robertson or Kahnle. Kahnle broke out and helped us land a top 50 prospect in Rutherford, we should all be happy. Cashman is a smart GM, he's not going to let us completely fleece him.

QUOTE (GenericUserName @ Jul 19, 2017 -> 08:07 AM) Here is what I don't get right now: people were throwing around trade ideas of packaging Robertson & Kahnle and a third piece for Robles straight up and everyone said that was crazy and we would never do that. Instead we get a lesser prospect and two lotto tickets and suddenly everyone loves it? This whole deal basically revolves around Rutherford now. I feel like the only way we can win this trade is if Rutherford hits his cieling AND Kahnle regresses to an average ML pitcher or one of the lotto tickets becomes a good player or we are able to flip Clippard for something of value. You are overvaluing what we just traded. 1) Frazier is a pure rental and not worth much in a deal on his own 2) Robertson is a fairly high priced closer on a team with no use for him. Nice to get that salary off of our books. 3) Kahnle has had 3 months of good production, but the track record does not back it up. Could it be a full breakout? Sure, but given what happened to Jones I'm not sure we want to try and get greedy. "Hogs get fat, pigs get slaughtered"

QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Jul 19, 2017 -> 07:51 AM) Unless its Archer, Cole or Sonny Gray... Hahn has done a tremendous job of using prior trade conversations to still get the majority of what he wants in deals. Conversations with the Nationals for Sale laid the groundwork for the Eaton deal. Conversations with the Yankees about Quintana laid the groundwork for the Frazier/Robertson/Kahnle deal. Now all we have to do is deal Melky, Swarzak, and maybe Avi and stage one of the rebuild is complete.

QUOTE (iamshack @ Jul 18, 2017 -> 11:40 PM) So I will indulge you. What IS his potential? Ceiling for Rutherford is a more athletic David justice, which is a very good player

QUOTE (Chisoxfn @ Jul 18, 2017 -> 11:31 PM) I think this is a better trade then the Sale deal and probably like it more then the Q deal as well. I really really am a fan of this deal. With Sale / Q, I think the idea that we win the deal (as in get better talent then what we gave up, is relatively minimal)...now do we get future value (when we weren't able to leverage the current value of Q/Sale)...sure, but I don't see us winning those deals. In the case of this trade, I could see us acquiring the best player in the deal (as well as other contributors). Oddly enough, I could see this being the deal that when we look back a few years down the road, put us over the top. If Rutherford pans out, we win big. If we get anything from clarkin or polo as well it's a cherry on top. Our farm system it's so deep now

QUOTE (GenericUserName @ Jul 18, 2017 -> 11:15 PM) Normally I don't like to be a downer, but I really dislike this trade. When we have been talking about getting Kieboom or Soto for Robertson and how good Kahnle has become plus he is controllable for three more years, I feel like the only real piece we got was Rutherford. Hell, we had to take on Clippard!!! Rutherford seems like a glorified Jameson Fisher to me and I'm not a fan. Both those guys are rated highly because they are supposed to have natural hitting ability and nice swings, but the results aren't any better than guys with average hitting ability. And that might be fine if they had other skills that could add value, but they don't have speed that can be useful in the majors, are below average defenders, and have week arms. And Hahn saying he could play CF! But Rutherford is supposed to have power right? Except he has 2 home runs this season. If Rutherford wasn't highly rated going into the draft because he crushed guys year younger than him I definitely think he would be outside the top 100. I feel like this is buying high on Rutherford and selling low on Kahnle. Why take this trade two weeks before the deadline?! I hope I'm wrong, but this is the first time I'm down on a prospect, and this is probably our last trade that can add high end talent and I feel like we missed out. ***Deep breath*** Rant over. Clarkin is not nothing. We needed a solid left handed prospect for our system.

QUOTE (LittleHurt05 @ Jul 18, 2017 -> 11:14 PM) There goes the #1 farm system ranking This has been quite the week for the whole Sox. Holy crap

QUOTE (Jake @ Jul 18, 2017 -> 11:13 PM) There is a very real chance that in 3-5 years, this will be a trade that Yankees fans bring up in every single conversation about Cashman's f*** ups Moncada is getting called up!!!

QUOTE (soxforlife05 @ Jul 18, 2017 -> 11:12 PM) People said the same thing about Nate Jones last offseason. Look how that one turned out. Rebuilding teams should always be trading relievers. They are so volatile.

QUOTE (BigHurt3515 @ Jul 18, 2017 -> 11:09 PM) How is his defense? If his defense is good he is a great 4th OF guy with speed . Capable defender in left and center with his speed, he does have a weak arm though. Makes him a liability in right. I like him as a good forth outfielder

QUOTE (Jenksy Cat @ Jul 18, 2017 -> 11:07 PM) If they love Rutherford and it was the only way to acquire him? Sox fans should be thrilled. We have no use for kahnle or Robertson outside of them being trade chips. Getting Rutherford, clarkin, polo is very solid

QUOTE (BigHurt3515 @ Jul 18, 2017 -> 11:04 PM) Tito Polo Hitting .300 at the AA level with 26 SB, about to turn 23. Also has 25 XBH so far this year Polo is a talented player with sneaky pop and good speed. I think he ends up playing a role in the majors as a solid forth outfielder.

QUOTE (SoxAce @ Jul 18, 2017 -> 10:53 PM) Same. Blake Rutherford is making it hard for me to dislike it at all though. Love him as a prospect. Wanted the sox to draft him last year in fact. I really wanted Kyle Lewis last year instead of Collins. I still think he will be a quality player.

QUOTE (Soxbadger @ Jul 18, 2017 -> 10:52 PM) Also from a Sox perspective it makes sense because of Cooper. Cooper has had great success "fixing" guys with great stuff. Sox can get him a new crop next year and maybe they can flip 1 or 2 for more prospects. That's the great part about sucking, you can take risks on talent and maybe hit a lottery ticket. Soxtalk would fall into chaos if this deal falls apart

QUOTE (Steve9347 @ Jul 18, 2017 -> 10:43 PM) Agreed. I'm shocked at the response here Kahnle could easily regress back to his normal form at any point. Robertson does nothing for a rebuilding club, and Frazier is a pure rental. This is a great great deal for the Sox

QUOTE (Reddy @ Jul 18, 2017 -> 10:13 PM) Come on. Obviously the return matters, but we are absolutely overvaluing the pieces we're giving up here if you expect multiple top prospects to come back. Turning Frazier, Robertson and kahnle into Rutherford, clarkin, polo and clippard it's a great move by hahn and co No money expected to change hands

QUOTE (iamshack @ Jul 18, 2017 -> 10:10 PM) Who the f*** is Tito Polo? Yankees outfield prospect. Played in the world baseball classic for Colombia with quintana. I like him as a forth outfielder well can play several positions.

QUOTE (fathom @ Jul 18, 2017 -> 10:08 PM) Tito Polo? Tito polo was pulled in forth inning of good game earlier today, rumored to be final piece.

QUOTE (Jake @ Jul 18, 2017 -> 10:03 PM) I've given you all the evidence and reasoning that I can. I'm trying to make a distinction between a team like the Sox or Cubs that decides it will prioritize building up its minor leagues over its MLB team (this will always make you lose as a side effect) and the idea that you should make a concerted effort to lose as many games as possible regardless of whether that effort improves your organization. The Cubs would have waited longer to call up Rizzo if they wanted to lose more. They wouldn't have thrown a bunch of money at Edwin Jackson (as it turns out, that helped the losing! oops!). But they let the wins happen because they knew the rebuilding process would keep their draft position in a high-value place regardless. What I think is stupid is the idea of intentionally slow-walking player development, refusing to use the bullpen in a smart way, or dumping decent MLB performers for no return in hopes of generating extra losses. Or, as a general rule, rooting against your team. They'll lose enough without anyone trying to make it happen if you're trading away every veteran who isn't nailed down. Rumors of Tito polo bring final piece. I like him if so as prospect. Played of for Colombia in wbc.

QUOTE (LittleHurt05 @ Jul 18, 2017 -> 09:32 PM) He suddenly became bad, huh? He was solid forever I need more to this deal than Rutherford and clarkin