BrandoFan Posted February 21, 2004 Share Posted February 21, 2004 youre right, i dont know mel gibson..but neither do you I don't know him personaly, that's correct. Fortunately I know enough ABOUT him. But whatever. and yet youre calling him all kinds of vile crap...kinda ruins youre credibility , dont you think???.. Calling him what he is. If the mantlia fits as it were. I could care less what you or anyone else think of my credibility and pretty much stated so a few posts back. See how cool I am? id rather be hoodwinked by somebody because i thought they were a good person and was proven wrong then to smeer a good man's name... Why don't you do some research AND then make-up your mind. I liked Braveheart as much as the next guy and Mel's 80's oeurve is nothing if not solid, but come on-- if you haven't even heard of Ann Catherine Krazyb****facestein, the stigmata, the hallucinations, er, prophecies -- something that even I am familiar with.....then what's the point of carrying on? .some people need a sense of tradition in their lives... And some need a sense of justice and historical truth and progress and compassion. Mel and his father and their break-away sect fail in all departments, quite spectacularly IMO. Let them chant in Latin and Aramaic to their hearts' content. Just don't pass it off as anything more than that. again..give me an example of , as you call her " Krazyb****facestein" being anti -semetic... Do your own research. Entertainment Weekly Online excluding. Google is there for a reason. So are libraries. Encylopedia software. Reputable newspapers, worst comes the worst.......I am not CW, I will not help you. Then again, you'd still find an excuse to justify anti-V2nik beliefs and traditions. People need to believe, maybe it's the Gospels that are anti-semitic, etc. Nothing short of Gibson revealing his Hitler affiliation (not saying he is) will change the scepticism on part of his defenders. There are plenty to denounce. No suprise there. ...what they are concered about is christians taking the wrong message and twisting to promote hatred of jews... Christians have been doing that for the better part of 2000 years now. Somewhat less in the last 40 years. Now the Jews are blamed for HALF the ills of this world instead of for ALL of them. What a laugh. its funny , jewish leaders arnt condemning gibson. They aren't? ..but everyone else with an agenda seems to be I don't have any special agenda. I am a liberal and yet pro-Israel. And yet I am not religious even if I grew up with religious people around me as you claim to have. Nor am I an atheist even though that was the official position of the State.. I am agnostic with an ever-so-slight religious leaning and an enourmous curiosity. Until this topic was brought up in the Israel vs Palestine thread weeks ago, I never had ANYTHING to say about Mel Gibson, positive or negative, on this board. Is he a washed-up, overrated (as an actor AND director) asshole who's done some s***ty things in his youth, to some of which he admits, and who might just be manic as FSJ put it? Sure, but then again, among the H-wood elite such distinctions aren't exactly uncommon. His strict religious positions didn't interest me THAT much. So no, no agenda for me. Just calling it how I see it. Ironic? lol And if Passions turns out to be nothing more than escapist Braveheart of Nazareth epic with Jim "Angel Eyes" Caviezel as ethnically-correct Gee-Us, I would be the first one to admit I was wrong about the MOVIE if not about Gibsons or their faith. Who knows, perhaps after all the profit-driven controversy, he may choose to EDIT OUT all the propaganda s***. I hope so. I woud gladly choose to be WRONG about the flick than to have my apprehensions confirmed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrandoFan Posted February 21, 2004 Share Posted February 21, 2004 Y'know, as critical as I am about most other instances where Biblical events are presented as fact (literal or abstracted), I usually give the Jesus miracle stories I do too. I professed undying love for everything mystical, mythologial, metaphorical and miraculous; I even cut Moses and Noah some slack, for crying outloud. I, too, believe.... However, when all one could come up with is "But this was Jesus!" while, say, skimming through Crossand's engrossing research, I get an uneasy feeling. Total faith is great and all, but when things are passed off as fact in a secular literalist sense, I dunno.... And it's not as if Bob is a hard-line Christian. That threw me off a bit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlaSoxxJim Posted February 21, 2004 Share Posted February 21, 2004 And it's not as if Bob is a hard-line Christian. That threw me off a bit. This is just a lively offseason discourse, as is the Bush/Abortion thread and any number of others at any given time 'round here. Bob is official-certified Good People because, among other things, he spent his college days listening to the forever-cool and really underappreciated Material Issue. Philosophical/political/religious difference give people something to talk about and hopefullly we all learn a thing or two along the way. But, Gawd dammit, if it gets to be May, June, or July and there's not some decent baseball on the South Side to talk about I'll be a miserable bastard and I won't want anything to do with any of y'all. Fair warning... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
baggio202 Posted February 21, 2004 Share Posted February 21, 2004 brando..read through you response to me.. its filled with the same kind of hate for gibson and others that you so staunchly object too..many people love to point the faults in others they hate so much about themselves.. i find this statement to be quite interesting.."i am a liberal yet pro israel"....why do feel you have to qualify being liberal with not being against israel???..which groups are now persecuting the jews??... im not even that big of a fan of mel gibson..i hated the mad max and leathal weapon movies..i never gave him a 2nd thought until braveheart came out...but i find myself defending him like he's my best friend because of what i feel are unwarranted and unjust attacks against his character... as for doing my own research ..youre the one that called her all kinds of names..said she was anti-semite..you must know what she said , right...you wouldnt call her an anti-semite without proof....if youre gonna label someone you should bring some facts to back it up..how hard is it to type out a few lines of what you read??...seems like youre sidestepping the issue to me.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
baggio202 Posted February 21, 2004 Share Posted February 21, 2004 It was the ABC Prime Time interview from last Monday that I refer to when I say ha came off as sidestepping the issues. I don't know if the NBC material you are refering to was taped later but it sound like it may have been in which case he'd have been ready to come up with some better answers to the questions at hand. Again I did not see anything on NBC (and haven't seen any interview material since Prime Time), but I don't think he or his father was unfairly treated in that. He was given a chance to distance himself from radical views of his father which he may or may not share. He refused to do so on Prime Time bacause he did not want to speak poorly of his father, but if on NBC he conceded a Holocost in whicj 6+ million Jews were killed, he did exactly what he refused to do on Monday. Now how hard was that? jim maybe that was from a later interview...but thats what was on NBC news last night..the quotes they were attributing to him..i thought thats the interview you were talking about...maybe he felt the need to clarify his position... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
israel4ever Posted February 21, 2004 Share Posted February 21, 2004 Can you believe that I'm staying out of this one??? BTW, Jewish leaders are not concerning themselves with "The Passion", because they are fighting REAL anti-Semitism!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrandoFan Posted February 22, 2004 Share Posted February 22, 2004 By feigning shock and surprise/indignation when it was pointed out to him that the Emmerich visions are chock-full of anti-semitism, it demonstrates either that he has not studied the source material closely enough before making the film or that he is as blind to his prejudices as his father is to his. Yes, it's possible he is mis-informed. Yes, it's possible he is oblivious to his own bias/agenda. But you know what? I think he is neither and that there is viable THIRD option: he's done his research, he knows what he wants to accomplish and he simply played dumb and told Diane and the viewers what they WANTED to hear, probably cautious of the BO backlash or, worse, the damage to his whole career. I was surprised how weak/trite his rhetoric was and how unnaturally he carried himself. He had an eternity to prepare, to get his BS straight and yet there he was squirming under the microscope.... Jim, I think you did a good job reading between the lines and observing the behavioral nuances-- as Darwin said, a man will betray his true motivations/emotions/thought direction if only by irregular movement of the pinky finger. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrandoFan Posted February 22, 2004 Share Posted February 22, 2004 brando..read through you response to me.. its filled with the same kind of hate for gibson and others that you so staunchly object too..many people love to point the faults in others they hate so much about themselves.. Ok. i find this statement to be quite interesting.."i am a liberal yet pro israel"....why do feel you have to qualify being liberal with not being against israel???..which groups are now persecuting the jews??... You mentioned agenda. I responded. I am in fact pro-Israel. I am in fact a liberal. Among other seemingly conflicting things........I will not be tied down to a single platform or a trend. Paraphrasing the brilliant Pasternak, sometimes it's imperative to even denounce your country and your family to attain moral character and greater truth. I am not there yet (lol), but I am proud to say I am somewhat open-minded. That includes all matters theological/religous. Mel Gibson was just another Bruce Willis for me until a few years ago. No agenda whatsoever. But enough about me. im not even that big of a fan of mel gibson..i hated the mad max and leathal weapon movies..i never gave him a 2nd thought until braveheart came out...but i find myself defending him like he's my best friend because of what i feel are unwarranted and unjust attacks against his character... I find myself defending all kinds of views, from abortion to Jerry Reindorf. If you feel like you have all the facts at your disposal and the moral truth on your side, then please by all means defend Mel. It's your inaliable right as it were. as for doing my own research ..youre the one that called her all kinds of names..said she was anti-semite..you must know what she said , right...you wouldnt call her an anti-semite without proof... Yes I did, yes I did, yes I do and no I wouldn't. .if youre gonna label someone you should bring some facts to back it up.. CW and I believe Soxy beat me to it. how hard is it to type out a few lines of what you read??... It's even easier than that. Forget the books, everything's available online. Imagine that. And no, no links for you. Next. seems like youre sidestepping the issue to me In a way...I am. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IlliniBob72 Posted February 22, 2004 Share Posted February 22, 2004 This is just a lively offseason discourse, as is the Bush/Abortion thread and any number of others at any given time 'round here. Bob is official-certified Good People because, among other things, he spent his college days listening to the forever-cool and really underappreciated Material Issue. Philosophical/political/religious difference give people something to talk about and hopefullly we all learn a thing or two along the way. Great! I knew listening to Jim Ellison and the boys would help me out later in life! Here's a question for you Jim. Ever hear of The Mighty Lemon Drops? I may have asked you that before. I was searching around for my old tape of their Laughter album. One of my favorite records ever. Couldn't find the tape so I guess that gives me reason to find the CD online and order her up. It's a must check-out for you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
baggio202 Posted February 22, 2004 Share Posted February 22, 2004 Ok. You mentioned agenda. I responded. I am in fact pro-Israel. I am in fact a liberal. Among other seemingly conflicting things........I will not be tied down to a single platform or a trend. Paraphrasing the brilliant Pasternak, sometimes it's imperative to even denounce your country and your family to attain moral character and greater truth. I am not there yet (lol), but I am proud to say I am somewhat open-minded. That includes all matters theological/religous. Mel Gibson was just another Bruce Willis for me until a few years ago. No agenda whatsoever. I find myself defending all kinds of views, from abortion to Jerry Reindorf. If you feel like you have all the facts at your disposal and the moral truth on your side, then please by all means defend Mel. It's your inaliable right as it were. Yes I did, yes I did, yes I do and no I wouldn't. CW and I believe Soxy beat me to it. It's even easier than that. Forget the books, everything's available online. Imagine that. And no, no links for you. Next. In a way...I am. on line info isnt gonna tell me why you think her visions were anti -semetic...is it because her vision were so brutal in regaurds to the crowd chanting for jesus death being depicted as jewish???...thats what i am guessing..but i cant read your mind... i just dont understand the hatred for this man.. the point that i found interesting in pro israeli stance is that you felt you had to distinguish it from being liberal..like you are saying most liberal are anti semites or at best pro muslim.. you seem to be worried about fundemental christians using this to forward anti semitism but most fundemental christians would consider themselves conservative (not all of course)...has the tide changed so to speak??.....+..but i guess after this movie opens we will see how many , if any , problems arise...should be interesting to see just how far we have come as a society in respecting different religous views.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrandoFan Posted February 22, 2004 Share Posted February 22, 2004 If Passions turns out to be nothing more than escapist Braveheart of Nazareth epic with Jim "Angel Eyes" Caviezel as ethnically-correct Gee-Us, I would be the first one to admit I was wrong about the MOVIE if not about Gibsons or their faith. Who knows, perhaps after all the profit-driven controversy, he may choose to EDIT OUT all the propaganda s***. I hope so. Ebert and Roeper swear by it. Far from bastions of critical sophistication, but are perfectly credible (esp Eb) mainstream reviewrs nonetheless. So it's totally possible Melly employed one of the shrewdest and oldest marketing ploys in the book to generate great interest and controversy...and then toned down the rabid Anti-Semitism -- it's safer for his career that way -- H-wood IS being run by Jews afterall and blacklisting is not just a relic from the studio system of the past) in the final cut. As long as the movie is of true artistic quality (it appears to be but I will hold it t a higher standard than I would, say, Braveheart -- it's Jesus afterall!) and contains no funky gospelic interpretations......I may actually give Melly his dues. And I don't want to do that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlaSoxxJim Posted February 22, 2004 Share Posted February 22, 2004 Great! I knew listening to Jim Ellison and the boys would help me out later in life! Here's a question for you Jim. Ever hear of The Mighty Lemon Drops? I may have asked you that before. I was searching around for my old tape of their Laughter album. One of my favorite records ever. Couldn't find the tape so I guess that gives me reason to find the CD online and order her up. It's a must check-out for you. I recall seeing flyers for them, but I never had a chance to check them out, actually. Good stuff? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bjmarte Posted February 22, 2004 Share Posted February 22, 2004 bj.... can you show me where the words "free will" are in the bible? just checking. Can you show me where the word "predestination" is in the bible? The bible does refer to people choosing to either sin or to turn away from sin in many different places including James 4:4, 1 Peter 4:3, and Ezekiel 33:11-20 where it actually talks about people changing their fate by making different choices. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlaSoxxJim Posted February 22, 2004 Share Posted February 22, 2004 Can you show me where the word "predestination" is in the bible? The bible does refer to people choosing to either sin or to turn away from sin in many different places including James 4:4, 1 Peter 4:3, and Ezekiel 33:11-20 where it actually talks about people changing their fate by making different choices. Those sound like examples of free will to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sox4lifeinPA Posted February 22, 2004 Share Posted February 22, 2004 Those sound like examples of free will to me. I'll respond to bj and jim in one message.... For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: "I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth."[7] 18Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden. 19One of you will say to me: "Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?" 20But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? "Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, 'Why did you make me like this?' "[8] 21Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use? the words "free will" were never in any of your examples...however, "choice" and derivitivies there of, were. are you serious about the word "predestined?" here: one two three I don't think I need to do much more than that. this is my favorite scripture as of late.... I believe the word "felicitous" would fit. 1 Corinthians 18For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God....25For the foolishness of God is wiser than man's wisdom, and the weakness of God is stronger than man's strength. 26Brothers, think of what you were when you were called. Not many of you were wise by human standards; not many were influential; not many were of noble birth. 27But God chose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise; God chose the weak things of the world to shame the strong. 28He chose the lowly things of this world and the despised things -- and the things that are not -- to nullify the things that are, 29so that no one may boast before him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlaSoxxJim Posted February 22, 2004 Share Posted February 22, 2004 the words "free will" were never in any of your examples...however, "choice" and derivitivies there of, were. The possibility of choice presupposes that you have the capacity to make that choice, ie, free will. Now this is mere semantics, is it not? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrandoFan Posted February 22, 2004 Share Posted February 22, 2004 Now this is mere semantics, is it not? Yes? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sox4lifeinPA Posted February 22, 2004 Share Posted February 22, 2004 The possibility of choice presupposes that you have the capacity to make that choice, ie, free will. Now this is mere semantics, is it not? sure, if you ignore what I just posted. The problem is that we stand from our own perspective. There is no way we can understand and unveil the mysteries of God. He alone stands outside of time and space, but inside of it at all times. If He knows the beginning and the ending, our freedom in the interim still works within His plan. My choice to eat a burrito vs. a taco still works inside of His plan. My choice to kill someone with a burrito or a taco stills works within that plan, because He has a way to lead me back to Him. Or maybe I was so unbelieveably pompous and self-righteous that I needed an experience such as jail/death row, to lead me too him. What does an upper-middle class, white guy from PA with the world at my fingertips need with an All-Powerful, incredibly myseterious and confusing God? Not a lot.... it's not a coincidence that Jesus' stories and experiences heavily revolved around those with money.... A close friend of mine and a recovering alcoholic once said..."if Jesus came back today...he'd be at an AA meeting". A-freakin'-men. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrandoFan Posted February 22, 2004 Share Posted February 22, 2004 There is no way we can understand and unveil the mysteries of God. He alone stands outside of time and space, but inside of it at all times. If He knows the beginning and the ending, our freedom in the interim still works within His plan. My choice to eat a burrito vs. a taco still works inside of His plan. My choice to kill someone with a burrito or a taco stills works within that plan, because He has a way to lead me back to Him. Or maybe I was so unbelieveably pompous and self-righteous that I needed an experience such as jail/death row, to lead me too him. You forgot to add "I happen to believe that " before "There is no way we...". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sox4lifeinPA Posted February 22, 2004 Share Posted February 22, 2004 You forgot to add "I happen to believe that " before "There is no way we...". and the funny thing is.... your statement is 20x as arrogant as mine is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrandoFan Posted February 22, 2004 Share Posted February 22, 2004 What does an upper-middle class, white guy from PA with the world at my fingertips need with an All-Powerful, incredibly myseterious and confusing God? Not a lot... And yet here you are. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrandoFan Posted February 22, 2004 Share Posted February 22, 2004 and the funny thing is.... your statement is 20x as arrogant as mine is. How so? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sox4lifeinPA Posted February 22, 2004 Share Posted February 22, 2004 And yet here you are. by His Grace alone.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrandoFan Posted February 22, 2004 Share Posted February 22, 2004 by His Grace alone.... Who knows, could be. Or not. And don't worry about my arrogance, I'll have a coupla (I may be off by a few here) eternities roasting in Hell to regret it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sox4lifeinPA Posted February 22, 2004 Share Posted February 22, 2004 How so? first of all, it's silly for anyone to not believe in a higher power of some sort. One cannot assemble their code of laws, morals, and ability to discern from right and wrong by chance. In fact, if there's not ultimate authority/good, than there's no ultimate negative and killing another person is no more a wrong than eating a bag of dorritos. It's all relative...which is crap. so clearly something greater must exist. Most rational, intelligent human beings get THAT far into the argument. to your question: The mere idea that I or anyone could fully comprehend the complexities of the ultimate authority, creator, and summation of all good, isn't arrogant? you're a smart guy, Brando, but no single person can fully comprehend every detail of natural HUMAN capacity, so how then, could a single person fully comprehend the supernatural and metaphysical? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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